Diesel Vs. Propane Vs. Gas - HDJ81 Vs. Suburban

[LCdreamin]

I know I double posted this in "other vehicle..." but I really wanted you guys in here to take a quick peak since I think you are probably the most creative and intuitive guys on here. Delete it if you must.

Ok, so I've pretty much concluded that at the moment I can't afford a nice HDJ81, although I can probably get a cheap one, but the chance of ending up with a POS is too great for me to risk.

Now I'm looking at Suburbans, mainly because of they're size (Perfect for Surf trips, and I was always worried about the smaller HDJ81's), but I also can't afford to run around town in a big heavy beast with a 350 gas guzzler. The vehicle needs to be pretty much a daily driver

I'm thinking about putting propane in a Suburban. I've also come across a diesel Suburban, although I know they still get s***ty mileage too, especially compared to a hdj81, but at least I can convert to bio diesel or the sort.

The real reason I got hooked on diesel was because of the mileage figures I was seeing with the HDJ81's and the ability to run alternate diesel. Also the reliability of diesel engines (I hear toyota diesels are the best? what about the ones in suburbans?) Also the fact that there is no ignition is nice to know when fjording rivers.

So I guess, if it comes down to a suburban, would I be better off with a diesel or dual gas/propane setup?

Also, how are the Suburbans for 4x4? I'm no rock crawler, but I want to do more surf adventures exploring coasts and down to Mexico, so mainly sand and mud crossing rivers. No real mountain crawling.

All thoughts and ideas appreciated

 

[Dougal]

I'm thinking about putting propane in a Suburban. I've also come across a diesel Suburban, although I know they still get ****ty mileage too, especially compared to a hdj81, but at least I can convert to bio diesel or the sort.

The real reason I got hooked on diesel was because of the mileage figures I was seeing with the HDJ81's and the ability to run alternate diesel. Also the reliability of diesel engines (I hear toyota diesels are the best? what about the ones in suburbans?) Also the fact that there is no ignition is nice to know when fjording rivers.

A suburban being bigger than a cruiser is always going to get worse fuel mileage. While a diesel can use up to 50% less than a petrol (expect biggest differences at low load, less difference at higher load), a vehicle that size is always going to drink a lot of fuel.

I'd expect a diesel suburban to use approx 13-16L/100km. Even 20L/100km in hard going (sand, snow, mud, heavy towing etc).
I'd be putting a cummins or Isuzu into a suburban. Check out www.4btswaps.com for inspiration.

 

[cody c]

you really arent gonna get much advice in the way of a suburban on a cruiser site, some people like the burban diesles but i personally disklike them, alot. JMO. what is your budget? i hope a toyota diesel is still a possibility.
Cheers!

 

[LCdreamin]

you really arent gonna get much advice in the way of a suburban on a cruiser site, some people like the burban diesles but i personally disklike them, alot. JMO. what is your budget? i hope a toyota diesel is still a possibility.
Cheers!

I know this isn't the best place for info on Burbs and it's biased towards LC, but I know some guys here are really knowledgeable so I thought I'd just see what responses I get.

Budget is pretty much capped at 15,000....but hoping to not spend more then 10,000 on a suburban. Been considering getting a real old rig (but relatively strong) for under 4,000 and then putting propane in that for a total cost of hopefully no more than 7,000.

It's basically either a cheap rig to have fun with and hopefully get a couple years out of, or go for a nicer rig and keep it for a longer.

I just really like the size since I can stuff boards and gear all inside and still have room, plus the option of 4x4 to explore and the cheapness of propane (or diesel) which can keep it a DD.

Obviously if I could get a good 81 for 15 i'd take that, just seems its too risky at that price range, and the good ones are all over 20k.

Just spent a few minutes on the first Suburban forum on a google search and already found problems with their diesels. So frusterating that we cant get toyota diesels for our domestic market....frick!!!

 

[cody c]

someone was selling a hdj in vancouver not too long ago for about that much, save your pennies!

 

[crushers]

the newer 6.5 L is supposed to be a good engine (i have acoule friends that like them, me i hate anything chevy) BUT if it was me i would look at a 95-97 powersmoke diesel van, i have a E350 and unloaded at 100 km/hr it returns 28 mpg add an empty flat deck it is down to 22 mpg and with one unit down to 19 mpg add a second cruiser onto the flat deck and you are down to about 12 mpg. of course as soon as you break over the 110 then she starts to drink the fuel more readily. these are test figures over 2 years and dozens of tanks of fuel.
huge gobs of power if needed, tons of room, very comfortable.... if it was 4WD then i would be completely happy.
down side is the noise... it is L O U D when working.
the 7.3 are noted for getting well over the 800,000 km as long as you keep ontop of the maitainence (easp the coolant changes)
well that is my suggestion if you want a inexpensive traveler that is also reliable... you can pick one up for around $8000 in nice shape if you shop around. turn key, throw your roof racks on and away you go...

as for swaps, with all the diesels available in NA, espec Canada, now why even consider a swap? swaps are NEVER cheap or direct bolt ins.

 

[Martin White]

I think picking up an old suburban would be a huge mistake. There is a reason you hardly see any on the road any more. They are just incredibly poorly made. Non stop problems. I like Wayne's idea. With the right tires you would probably be able to go any sane place you needed to go. You'd have a relatively late model vehicle and tons of money left for repairs. Just do a search on suburban reliability and you will find out. Or take a look at this chart (red is bad):

http://www.autooninfo.net/ReliabilityPercentranksGMC.htm

That will give you an idea of what you can expect from a GM, particularly one of that vintage.

 

[street tractor]

Have you considered a Nissan Patrol/Safari? I have never seen one in person but they look at least as large as an HDJ81, especially with the raised roof. The TD42 sounds like it is quite economical for moving such a big unit as well.
Best of all, it looks like very nice examples are going for 10-15k instead of 20-25 for 81's. Outback Imports has a couple nice ones...


If I could not afford an 81, a Patrol would be my next choice without a doubt.

 

[street tractor]

Have you looked at the Nissan Safari/Patrol? If I could not afford an 81, I would definitely look into one.

-lots of room with raised roof
-economical TD42
-very capable
-some neat features(disconnecting rear sway bar from in cab)
-very nice examples from 10-15k

I must admit to never driving one but I've done alot of reading on them since I was weighing the pros and cons vs the HDJ81. If you want further info PM "canuck safari", he knows a ton about them.

 

[street tractor]

Sorry for the double post, I thought I deleted the first by accident...

 

[RHINO]

well i see lots of truck talk but nothing about your other Q's,, i'll start by adding to the truck talk.
couple of my buddies have suburbans, well one got rid of his for a taco 4 runner, but my other buddy has his and really uses it. its been a good rig, not as tough as a cruiser but not much is. crushers points out problems with burbans, but everything is going to have problems, with proper maintinance those can be kept to a minimum.
if a suburban is in your future, the 6.5 is the better engine. fuel mileage wont be stellar, but if driven nicely and maintained properly you can expect upwards of 18 MPG, thats not bad for such a big truck.

as for your other Q, i dont think propane is a good way to go for street use, its not much cheaper than gasoline gets a little less mileage and storage of large enough amounts to drive distances is going to be tough.

regular gasoline is still a viable option, you could even go with a conversion to run ethanol or a mix, wont do much for mileage but it'll make you feel better about tailpipe emmissions.

 

[crushers]

one side point on the propane conversions, remember some parkcades will NOT allow propane vehicles in their buildings and it is illegal to park propane units underground parking period.

cheers

 

[mac]

Propane= less fuel economy and have fun fuelling on a trip through the states. I've done it and it takes careful planning. Most stations only sell the BBQ variety. I wouldn't do propane- stick w/ a VORTEC gasser first if you get a 'Burbin.

The 6.2 can have a long life if treated well (my dad has 450k kms on his) but is underpowered especially for a suburban- 150hp I think. As with many diesels is not the engine itself that will require $$$ attention- it's the other things like the pump, injectors, etc.. The other thing about the 6.2 & 6.5- they are a BITCH to work on. The injectors and gplugs all sit outboard on the heads and the injector lines run accross the top of the valve covers. 6.5's will have more power of course which some think makes them better but diesel guys I've talked to say they live a shorter life.

I've been working lately on a 7.3 found in Fords and I like it. Read what Crushers said above- I'd look for something like that. The downfall of these things- specifically the DI Powerstrokes- they are pricey to repair, but so are Toyota DI diesels.

Consider the Safari. James at JDM raves about these things- he should know, he's grown up with them. Apparently very stout (some say tougher than an HDJ) and can be cranked up easily for more power. I saw one on Craigs for $14k or something like that. I do think they are ugly ass homely but I wouldn't let that get in my way of owning one if they are a good Diesel- you are, after all, looking at a 'Burbin!

 

[61ihc]

LC Dreaming:

you can't find a decent hdj81 for around $15G? between my dad and I we've had 4 ranging in price from 10G to $15G and all 4 have been awesome and reliable but by no means perfect. One came close and would have no problem fetching over 20G.

I would take what Martin says with a grain of salt, no offense to Martin. But here's a guy who buys a $20G+ 15 year old, big and heavy truck, complains incessantly about fuel economy and pours $15G more into the truck only to tell you every chance he gets to ONLY buy from a reputable dealer or you'll be stuck with a POS with no end of problems in sight. Unfortunately, he's not the only one on here with the same opinion and these people have probably dissuaded a few. A used vehicle is a used vehicle and the beauty of MUD is that most members get satisfaction doing things on their own, whether it's wrenching on them or importing them. For guys like Martin, Luxury Import or Outback are the way to go. I for one, don't mind a calculated risk and don't mind dealing with problems which may arise and still have money left over. Wayne sells beautiful trucks which i can't afford, but I don't mind driving a sharp looking well maintained cruiser that, well, looks used but still is a lot better than 15 year old vehicles here.

In conclusion, personally I find it immensely less risky to import a cruiser from Japan (with the help of my reliable exporter) than buying any sort of Suburban for $10G. This of course is useless advice with out exercising patience and due diligence in your search.

Good luck.

 

[dieseldan]

I think your smart to stay within your budget and your comfort zone for risk of hard earned $$ lost. I have two friends with diesel suburbans and both swear by them (both well over 400k now) so I beleive maintenance is everything.

I don't think the hack on Martin is fair at all - seems to me he enjoy's the learning experience and likes to experiment with his rig and share the results or lack of with mud members.

If you are happy to risk cash on a sight unseen truck then have at it as everyone has different circumstances. If you really can't afford to risk it then it would be stupid to do so.

I would suggest looking at a Patrol also though - the drivetrain is proven, solid and reliable. I also like the fact that there are less gadgets to break and who cares about speed? If you want a solid low Km truck that you can drive before you buy I would look at one of those. Likely the best bang for the buck on JDM trucks. I only went the Cruiser route 'casue I've always loved 'em and my truck will be with me for the long haul therfor worth the xtra dough to me.

 

[street tractor]

A delica may fit the bill as well. Lots of room, good on fuel, low range gearing and the ability to make it into a pseudo camper. If you're more into access/logging roads than rock crawling, a delica sounds like it would be perfect.

I believe many are using alternate diesel on these as well...

 

[LCdreamin]

Appreciate the ideas! I'm still considering the Delica or Patrol, but still nothing touches the size, especially the length of the suburban. I just love the idea of being able to put everything, including 9 foot boards inside.

To put propane in perspective; propane goes here for $0.65 and gas is around $1.15. A propane kit installed is about $3500, so for avarage of 20,000k a year, payback is about 2 years. Not to mention propane engines last longer?!?! So I hear....

And if I did go propane, it would be a dual fuel system.

I guess if it was propane vs diesel, what would you think? The main concern being operating cost and relaibilty.

 

[61ihc]

Didn't intend to hack on Martin, I've learned lots from his posts also. I always see people refered to buy high-end when a clean unit with average kms will do most people just fine. i just want to be one of the few to encourage those on the fence about a mid priced unit to not be dissuaded. there are those of us with good experiences and inexpensive import cruisers. I don't feel like I've lost anything by not having a warranty or having to do the BEBs myself. Just offering a contrasting opinion

 

[mac]

Let's not forget about the awesome HJ61. They've come down in price and have a proven drive train as well as great economy.

Further on propane- it may be cheaper but your fuel economy will be significantly less than even a gasser. Factor that into any equations you do.

 

[61ihc]

Have you considered the Isuzu Bighorn, known as the Troopere here in North America? They come with a 4cylinder 3.1L TDI which is supposedly very peppy, thrifty, and well respected down under. They also can be had for a fraction of what an HDJ81 goes for. I'm really intrigued by these units. good luck and once again, no disrespect towards Martin.