Diesel Conversion...help this poor Rookie!!

[robbyfj62]

I was intrigued when I read about bio diesel, and "greasel" powered engines, maybe this is subsequent to being raised by psuedo-hippies, who knows? Nonetheless, I have decided to attempt a diesel conversion to my 1989 FJ-62. The Cruiser, or "Gregory-Anne" as I have named him for his ambiguously homosexual attempt at power, needs a little more testosterone. I live in Grass Valley, home of 4X4 Laboratories, and a few rugged, cruiser enthusiasts. I am hoping to discuss pros, cons and everything related to putting a diesel into a Land Cruiser. My most recent idea was a 5 cylinder turbo diesel out of a 1980-85 300d Mercedes. I have contemplated other things like a 4BT from an old bread/UPS truck, or even trying to find a decent deal on a 24 Valve Cummins from a newer Dodge, irregardless, I am hoping someone may be able to shed a little light on the topic. Is this a bone-head move, or can I actually give Gregory-Anne the "sex-change" he so desperately needs? I know there are definate benefits to keeping the original engine in place. The biggest benefit I see is the probably one of the most obvious to anyone who owns one of these things: FJ-62's surely must statistically decrease the number of deaths to drivers and occupants, it's mighty hard to get in a wreck when your car is up on jack stands, or wont accelerate past 55 mph. At least I'll never get a speeding ticket...right? So, I'll stop here, and hope to hear some ideas or suggestions.

 

[cabron]

if you use the search function you will find alot of information. Also the technical links section at the top of the page.

 

[FL cruiser]

My opinion on diesel and grease conversions: You do it because want something different/unique or have lots of time and money for a new hobby.
Don't do it because you expect to recoup the cost of a conversion in fuel savings. Just the time involved and the cost of both the diesel conversion and the veggie oil conversion together add up.

Slightly different if you already have a diesel vehicle. The grease conversion isn't that expensive and you will recoup your investment.

I think the Mercedes would be underpowered in a 62. You are limited to using an automatic unless you can find a Mercedes manual flywheel. They are rare and hard to find in the US.
I know people will say the power output of the Mercedes can tweaked up alot, but I still don't see it being powerfull enough in a 62 for US driving conditions.

None of thediesel engines that will fit a cruiser exceeds or excels in all three of the following characteristics: (1)Power/durability (2) Economy, (3)Quietness/smoothness. You can find them that excel or stand out in two out of the three, but not all three at the same time. Do your research on these engines. They all have different characteristics. Your choices probably are;
A variety of Toyota diesels, Cummins 4BT, 6AT, 6BT, Isuzu or GM.

The biggest factor is how much moey do you have to spend?

All that said, I have no regrets doing my conversion..

 

[browndog]

If you've got the money and the time the swap is worth it. If cost is the biggest concern but you want to go diesel, go with one of the Chevy options. Easy to get parts, relatively cheap to find good motors, and good support on this site from folks who have done the swap. If cost is not an issue, go with either a Toyota or a Cummins. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

Toyota advantages and disadvantages:
1. Keep the rig all Toyota.
2. Pretty quite and smooth, although louder and more vibration than the gasser.
3. Reliable and easy to work on.
4. EXPENSIVE
5. Not easy to get parts in US

Cummins:
1. Great power
2. less expensive for the motor but more for the swap (if a shop does it)
3. good availability of parts
4. more mods required for swap
5. pretty loud


I did a 13BT swap and love it. Either way, you will get much better gas mileage, and if you run bio you'll save even more (if you make it yourself). I'm not sure about other folks, but at $2.60/gal I calculated that my swap would pay for itself in five years in gas savings alone. Since I make my own biodiesel the payoff time looks more like 3 years. I will say, however, that cost savings should not be your major goal. It's alot of work, but I don't regret it either.

 

[Ruffy]

Not wanting to hijack this thread i've got what might be a silly question but why is it the hear is Oz if we do an upgrade diesel swap we usuallu import or buy and imported 6.2 or 6.5 chev diesel V8 form the states yet most of you guys only talk about these 4BT engines which i've never heard of?
Are they better than the V8 or more readily available? Fill me in please!

 

[FL cruiser]

The 4BT is harder to come by than the GM V8. They aren't all that common, especialy in automotive applications. They are a heavier duty industrial engine. noted for their durability and longevity. They are heavy and physically taller than the V8. Vehicle Lift required. They are turbocharged and put out lots of power and torque for their size. Pretty much a low RPM engine with limited powerband, a low RPM engine. About the only thing not in their favor, is lots of vibration and they are loud.

 

[Ruffy]

Thanks. I guess thats why we don't see them here. The GM Engine is the go here cos it's the only decent reliable thing we have short of boosting the arse out of a 1HZ.
The 24V is available but you can expect to pay around 10 thousand bones for it. Thats oz dollars of course.

 

[curious1]

I would install a 12HT Toyota motor. It is the diesel motor that would of been in your Cruiser in other parts of the world. Excellent power!!!

 

[Greg_B]

I did a 13BT swap and love it. Either way, you will get much better gas mileage, and if you run bio you'll save even more (if you make it yourself). I'm not sure about other folks, but at $2.60/gal I calculated that my swap would pay for itself in five years in gas savings alone. Since I make my own biodiesel the payoff time looks more like 3 years. I will say, however, that cost savings should not be your major goal. It's alot of work, but I don't regret it either.

My sick BJ60 will be getting a 13BT transplant soon. It is the swap of choice for me, as it it the closest thing to a bolt-in there is. The 12HT would be a great option too, as curious1 said...

There's a 1HD-T/H55F combo that's been driving around the USA for a number of years, and the owner is quite happy. THere is also a 1HZ/H55F combo in a 60 back east, and he has been happy with it. More and more are getting swapped out all the time...which I think is great...no matter where it comes from.

I guess the point of this is that any of them will work...

hth's

gb

 

[roscoFJ73]

There was a thread about a US owner who swapped a 4cyl diesel Onan generator engine into his 60. He turboed it and claimed it could keep up with a 12HT in a drag race.
Anyone else remember that thread??

 

[rick_d]

(this should be in new diesel/24v section)

Based on the engines you are looking at, you are attempting to do things on a budget. I'd investigate only conversions that have been done versus trying to fit a new engine in a 60 series. AS always, look into rebuild costs before you convert of key items, esp the turbo or injection pump. A 1980 engine may have poor parts support and injection pumps can run $1,000 to service. Look into worst case items before you buy.

a few details:
1) 4 cylinders tend to be rougher idle than 6 cylinders. MB and the Toyota PZ are the only 5 cylinders and the jury is out on how well they are liked.

2) Inline engines are better (IMNSHO) than "V"'s.

3) Inline pumps are generally considered better than rotary. Mechanical pumps are "light-years" better than electronic for any non urban use.

4) is you have volt conversion issues, go all 12 volt don't mix.

In your case, on a budget- I would only consider a engine you can test drive. Buying a non runner could eat your shorts getting back onto road or be a soot machine that you would hate once up and alive.

I have no budget limitations and have know for 7 years I wanted a toyota 1HD-T (1990-1995 6 cylinder LC engine with 12 valves and turbo). Going into a 1987 BJ7X has cost me $10,000 (but I am a little anal about the install). Get out and drive some before you commit- don't only take what you hear from others. I would add, that you have to reaaaallly like Perkins or NPR Isuzus because they do shake, rattle and roll.

 

[Tapage]

If your choose are a Toyota engine you have a lots of swap options .. ones with more HP other with lees .. all with a good reliability and performance.

All depends what do you want .. with type of tires, gearing .. and target.

 

[robbyfj62]

I really appreciate all of the feed back. I am not sure if budget is my priority, but I do want something reliable, and easy to find. It seems a trip to Cananda, or Tokyo is the only easy way to get my mits on a Toyota engine. This being said, I have opted to try to find something a little more common in the US for finding parts in the future, mechanix, etc. I really like the idea of the 4BT but don't know where to get one. The Mercedes issue of not having enough power was one of my main concerns as well. I should note that I am hoping to throw a manual tranny in this bugger as well. Now here is a good question for all of you.... "Ruffy" had mentioned the GM 6.2 as the cream engine down under, what is the general consensus on the GM engine. I actually have a buddy who is removing his GM 6.2 from his p/u in the spring, and I can purchase that from him. I have heard the GM diesel is a P.O.S. from a lot of people. I know it would be the easiest to find parts for, etc. but what are the downfalls? I am fairly ignorant to a lot of the technical jargon, but from what I understand the 6.2 is a diesel the same size as a GM 350 gasser which bolts in after a few minor conversions. In response to "FL Cruiser's" blog, I have been told by the guys at 4x4 labs here in town they are making a bracket for the ass-end of a Mercedes engine to link up with a GM tranny.... but hollow promises as of yet. Thansk for all of the intel guys, hopefully you have more.

Best Regards,
Robby

 

[brownbear]

A 6.2 can bolt up with an adpater to a H55f.

A 6.2 is the cheapest option.

They are good engines. Lots of torque. Not alot heavier than a 6cyl toyota.

Less depth needed. than a cummins.

I personally am a Toyota man tho, If budget was not a super concern. 1HZ engine would be my pick.

But for USA, simplicity and ease of parts a 6.2 would work.

It would haul a 60 around nicely. They get good mileage I am told too.

 

[VTCruiser]

...There is also a 1HZ/H55F combo in a 60 back east, and he has been happy with it...

yup, love it.

 

[FL cruiser]

It's been a long wait for 4X4 Labs to come out with their Mercedes adapters. I hope they do, but the wait has seemed endless.

The GM diesel probably has a bad rap from the electronic injection pump problems of the 94-up engines and the reputation following the P.O.S. Oldsmobile diesel.
I know there are better engines, but the 6.2/6.5 is decent.

I have seen a couple 6.2's used, abused and overworked and not fail.

The 6.2's bell housing bolt pattern is the same as any Chevy gasser. The engines physical dimensions are larger than the 350 gasser. The gasser's bell housing will bolt up to the 6.2, but the diesel's starter nose won't fit. Thus not all the conversion and adapter parts for gassers will work for the 6.2. A diesel flywheel and bell housing must be used. Marks Adapter is the exception. They make a flywheel/bell housing for this converion.

If you do look into a 6.2/6.5 do your research. There are years and models that are more desireable than others. Click on my webpage link below. There are some links to various GM diesel sites, and some tips I have found to help you get started.

Look for the 4BT in Frito-Lay trucks and Wonder Bread trucks. Check for a truck and equipment auction.

 

[Tapage]

I thought GM 6.2 is a more less option .. why .. here in Panamá have a regular reputation why .. ? the inyection system ..

Note: GM 6.2 is not the same thing as 350 cucbic inch it means 5.7

 

[ChuckB]

Robby,

I'm pretty much in the same situation that you are, so here are my thoughts on the subject. First of all, Steve (FL Cruiser) and John (GreaseCruiser) have been very helpful in answering all of my questions, Thanks guys

I have been doing a lot of research on the subject, and for the record I am maybe a mechanic so I definitely could not do this conversion in my driveway which is why I have been talking with John @ Proffitts.
I would love to do a Toyota diesel but $$$ and parts availability are causing me to stray away from that idea. In a perfect world that would be the answer. Either that or move to Cananda!!

The only thing that is causing me to be hesitant about the 4BT conversion is the amount of lift, you need at least 4" to clear this engine properly, which essensially means a SOA conversion. The other issue would be the amount of noise that it makes, but I have no personal experience with this.

FL Cruiser and Gumby have both used GM 6.2L in their conversions. I have read alot of the "negative press" on the 6.2L/6.5TD motors and I'm not convinced that this motor is totally a piece of sh!t as some would have you believe. Of course it is no toyota diesel and its not a Cummings either but it is used in all manner of Military spec and civilian Hummers and H1s. I personally have seen Marines beat the crap outta these motors and have not seen a riduculous amount of mechanical failures. I will shortly have some Iraq experinece in these vechicles but I can tell you out here in 29 Palms, CA (USMC premier desert training facility) these vehicles get used and abused!!!

Having said that I have made a point to join a couple of GM diesel forums (ala IH8MUD) (www.dieselplace.com) <--Search for my user name or Land Cruiser I have made a couple posts there already ) (http://www.62-65-dieselpage.com/) to see what people who actually use these motors daily have to say about them. There are plenty of people running around with 200,000 and even 300,000K miles on them. As with anything there are always two sides to the story.

As Steve mentioned most of the problems that create rumor stem from the electronic injections pumps that were implemented on the 6.5TD in the mid 90's. There are fixes out there for this or you could go to a "regular" mechancial pump. Most of the other early issues have fixes available and the best part is a lift is not required to do this conversion and an OME 2.5" will definitely cover you.

Ok I think i have done enough rambling... bottom line I am still undecided but learning more and more everyday.

HTH
Chuck

 

[roscoFJ73]

I thought GM 6.2 is a more less option .. why .. here in Panamá have a regular reputation why .. ? the inyection system ..

Note: GM 6.2 is not the same thing as 350 cucbic inch it means 5.7

True ,my info says the chev diesel 6.2 and 6.5 are based on the big block chev 427 and 454. Same stroke with a reduced bore gives them something like 360 ci.
Installers of these motors in oz only use the 2 valve mechanical injection and usually completely rebuild them.

 

[Tapage]

I thought is a better option usea a 4BT engine or off course a Toy engine but not a 6.2 ( that is 378 CI aprox .. )

just my .000002 cents ..