Death wobble (1 Viewer)

[lumbee1]

Last Thursday driving home from work, I was on a smooth road and hit the brakes. Instantly a little vibration from the front became death wobble. I didn't panic and slowed down. I knew exactly what it was from all the stories from Jeeps but didn't know this was really much of a thing for 80 series. I continued driving home and didn't experience it again. The next day driving, it happened again but I detected it early and it wasn't as severe.

I've already searched and determined that death wobble is a result of one or more of the following:

• Cracks in the frame around the panhard mount steering box side
• Worn or loose wheel bearings or worn spindles
• Loose rear wheel bearings
• Tie rod ends
• Alignment
• Tires
• Loose links or worn bushings

I'll cover each one.

• I couldn't see or find any cracks in the frame. My panhard bar is a new whiteline adjustable bar with only a few thousand miles on it.
• I did an axle job 2 years ago (10k miles?). My spindles are worn but not bad enough to warrant replacement yet.
• Front wheel bearings are tightened to 35ft/lbs but I will lift the truck and check.
• 555 tierod ends are probably 10 years old and appear to be in good shape (no busted boots) but they do seem a bit loose with play.
• Alignment is spot on.
• Tires are rotated every 5K with an oil change and none of them show any signs of abnormal wear.
• Axle side radius arm bushings are OEM and have 30K miles on them. Frame side are still original OEM and probably need to be replaced.

My steering dampener is probably 15 years old but the last time I checked it, it was working fine and I don't know if this would contribute to or prevent death wobble.

Frame side radius arm bushings need to be replaced and I might just replaced the TRE's because they are old. I'm going to test for frame cracks with the wheels on the ground but once I lift the front end I might have more information.

Is there anything else I am missing or should check?

 

[Devils Paw 80]

Everything I've read has said that the steering damper is irrelevant. Since your truck is lifted I'd look at the caster readings.

 

[JDUBinCO]

On my '85 4Runner it was the knuckle bearings.

 

[jfz80]

I’d add checking the torque on the knuckle studs/nuts top and bottom.

 

[benroberds]

had the same thing.

replaced all ball joints/tie rod ends
replaced all radius arm bushings
installed lower lift springs bringing my caster to 4-5 degrees (went from 3.5" to 2.5")
took steering damper off
checked steering arm bolt torque
new panhard bushings
wheel bearings good
Sector shaft tight in steering box

ended up installing hydro assist thinking the hyd cylinder would help dampen the steering (plus i needed it for keeping up with Broski in the rocks)

Got rid of 97% of the wobble. Still wobbles a very slight amount between 45 and 50 but could be tire balance, i'm not sure. Dead smooth below 45, dead smooth above 50. 45-50 very smooth but not perfect.

I have wheel spacers. I suspect they contribute as they shift the tire rotating mass further outboard of the knuckle bearings, possibly contributing to the wobble.

it's all I got. Sorry not much help but know you are not alone.

 

[mudgudgeon]

You say it happened when you braked. This to me suggests loose front wheel bearings.
I've experienced this with a couple of different landcruisers, and my current work truck.

Shows up most often when gently washing off some speed from high speed, or gently controlling speed down a decline at speed, or in the last stages of slowing down to a stop with light brake pedal pressure.
It shows up as a shudder felt through the brakes, but can quickly become a death wobble that shakes the whole vehicle.

To look for cracks, have someone turn the steering wheel back and forth for you while you crawl under the vehicle. Cracks are often visible as rusty lines along the edge of welds.

I agree, steering damper is not a cause or a solution for death wobbles.
It will usually be caused by an accumulation of wear and tear in multiple parts, but is sometimes due to poor wheel balance.

 

[roadstr6]

 

[baldilocks]

Shocks. Many years ago I thought putting different shocks on my 2005 dodge 2500 4x4 was a good idea. What Les Schwab sold me was junk. That’s when I started getting death wabble. I swithed to Bilsteins 250k miles ago and have never had the wabble again.
Same shocks all this time!
All solid front axle coil sprung vehicles are subject to death wabble.

 

[Sacred80]

The angle of your steering link needs to be as parallel to the axle as possible. When lift kits are installed there’s always a change in geometry and never a good change.

 

[lumbee1]

View attachment 3891698

What mud? I keep my Cruiser clean.

 

[lumbee1]

To clarify a few things.

The lift has been on for years. In 2018, I cut off the front of my radius arm mounts and welded new mounts based on readings from a laser alignment. My caster angle is perfect. This was confirmed a few years ago with another alignment check that identified loose wheel bearings. New bearings were installed then.

Knuckle bearings were replaced in 2022 during a rebuild just because I had them laying around.

Lower knuckle studs are checked regularly with my special double offset wrench. I've yet to find a loose nut.

I have Dobinson IMS shocks at all 4 corners and they seem to perform great on and off road.

You say it happened when you braked. This to me suggests loose front wheel bearings.
I've experienced this with a couple of different landcruisers, and my current work truck.

Shows up most often when gently washing off some speed from high speed, or gently controlling speed down a decline at speed, or in the last stages of slowing down to a stop with light brake pedal pressure.
It shows up as a shudder felt through the brakes, but can quickly become a death wobble that shakes the whole vehicle.

To look for cracks, have someone turn the steering wheel back and forth for you while you crawl under the vehicle. Cracks are often visible as rusty lines along the edge of welds.

I agree, steering damper is not a cause or a solution for death wobbles.
It will usually be caused by an accumulation of wear and tear in multiple parts, but is sometimes due to poor wheel balance.

I will double check my wheel bearings. My previous wheel bearings became loose due to spindle wear. That may be the case again. I have new spindles sitting on the shelf ready to be installed. I confirmed that I ordered my spindle kit in 2022 when I found wear on the spindles during a knuckle rebuild.
For testing cracks I had the exact same idea but one extra step. Someone turns the wheel back and forth but I am going to put a finger where cracks normally would appear. I should be able to feel the two surfaces move independent of each other even if I can't see it.
Thank you for the confirmation on the steering damper.

 

[lumbee1]

had the same thing.

replaced all ball joints/tie rod ends
replaced all radius arm bushings
installed lower lift springs bringing my caster to 4-5 degrees (went from 3.5" to 2.5")
took steering damper off
checked steering arm bolt torque
new panhard bushings
wheel bearings good
Sector shaft tight in steering box

ended up installing hydro assist thinking the hyd cylinder would help dampen the steering (plus i needed it for keeping up with Broski in the rocks)

Got rid of 97% of the wobble. Still wobbles a very slight amount between 45 and 50 but could be tire balance, i'm not sure. Dead smooth below 45, dead smooth above 50. 45-50 very smooth but not perfect.

I have wheel spacers. I suspect they contribute as they shift the tire rotating mass further outboard of the knuckle bearings, possibly contributing to the wobble.

it's all I got. Sorry not much help but know you are not alone.

Death wobble is something very different. What you are describing is driveshaft harmonics. I had the exact same problem. It was the rear pinion angle. I set my pinion angle using the bottle jack and installed Dobinson adjustable upper control arms for the rear. No more vibration.

 

[Anvil]

I had a severe death wobble going on with my 6" lifted 80. I replaced all the usual suspects, and still no change. I finally replaced the tires and the death wobble has been gone for 3 years now.

 

[lumbee1]

I had a severe death wobble going on with my 6" lifted 80. I replaced all the usual suspects, and still no change. I finally replaced the tires and the death wobble has been gone for 3 years now.

I spent the weekend checking the frame again and retorquing the wheel bearings. I found the driver's side bearing had the every so slightest amount of play. I must have checked the wheel 3 or 4 times before I found it. Bearings were semi-tight but I redid both sides anyways.

A quick drive and brake test gave me confidence I fixed the problem. Unfortunately during a longer drive on Sunday with the family I experienced death wobble again. I did notice that I have a slight shimmy during straight line driving. It very well could mean that my tires are out of balance. During cleanup of the Cruiser from the last trip, it's possible I blew some of the wheel weight off with the pressure washer. I going to take the Cruiser to Discount Tire and have them rebalance all the wheels again.

 

[roadstr6]

Jon,
I didn't want to say it, but I will...I don't like adjustable panhards, especially in the front suspension. In theory, they are great because they center the axle and put it back to stock. The problem is in the execution of the panhard itself (namely the bushings and bushing sleeves and the snugness of the factory bolt in the sleeves). I have no experience with 80 series panhards, but I have had issues with aftermarket panhards on Heeps that I have owned. The bolts through both ends have to be really snug going through the sleeve. If they are not spot-on, and have even the smallest amount of wiggle going in, you'll have a wobble. From what I've seen, most aftermarket panhards use a different bushing and sleeve that just doesn't fit right, or the sleeve wears out quickly introducing slop...or the sleeve is made of a harder steel that wears down the thru-bolts.

If you cannot find the culprit of your wobble, my suggestion is to remove the aftermarket panhard and replace it with your original. See if the wobble goes away. If it does, you'll know. Death wobble is almost always related to wheel bearings or panhard. You've eliminated the wheel bearings. Now you know what's next.

 

[BILT4ME]

I spent the weekend checking the frame again and retorquing the wheel bearings. I found the driver's side bearing had the every so slightest amount of play. I must have checked the wheel 3 or 4 times before I found it. Bearings were semi-tight but I redid both sides anyways.

A quick drive and brake test gave me confidence I fixed the problem. Unfortunately during a longer drive on Sunday with the family I experienced death wobble again. I did notice that I have a slight shimmy during straight line driving. It very well could mean that my tires are out of balance. During cleanup of the Cruiser from the last trip, it's possible I blew some of the wheel weight off with the pressure washer. I going to take the Cruiser to Discount Tire and have them rebalance all the wheels again.

Make sure they hand-torque your wheels to the proper torque and don't believe any horseshyt about "we have special Milwaukee electric impacts" for this.

I watched the yahoos over torque mine a LOT. I went round and round with both corporate and local.

I'll still buy from them, but beware.

 

[lumbee1]

Make sure they hand-torque your wheels to the proper torque and don't believe any horseshyt about "we have special Milwaukee electric impacts" for this.

I watched the yahoos over torque mine a LOT. I went round and round with both corporate and local.

I'll still buy from them, but beware.

The Discount Tire stores around here always use large calibrated torque wrenches. They don't use them properly at all but they have them.

 

[BILT4ME]

The Discount Tire stores around here always use large calibrated torque wrenches. They don't use them properly at all but they have them.

They came back and "checked" mine.

Yes it clicked on every one because his torque wrench was set at the correct 76 lb-ft and they had everything ugga-dugga'd at 120+

It pissed me off because I just installed fresh studs and they stretched the F out of them.

 

[JoeCova]

A lot of people describe minor shaking and vibrations as death wobble which isn’t exactly death wobble.

99% of the Death Wobble on jeeps is due to the inherent design of inverted-Y/Haltenberger style steering they use. Because your tierod is connected to the drag link, everytime your suspension cycles, like hitting a small bump or pothole, forces toe changes between the wheels. So you are constantly having toe-in, toe-out, toe-in, toe-out. Braking is generally not a catalyst to death wobble.

Crossover steering like on our 80s all but eliminates death wobble. The only things that can really contribute to the wheels running in different directions is bushings, bearings, TREs, or a terrible alignment.

Death wobble is an indication that something is lose or has excess play in it. If everything is new and torqued then it’s something else. Check your caster, higher caster may be making the steering lose.

 

[lumbee1]

A lot of people describe minor shaking and vibrations as death wobble which isn’t exactly death wobble.

99% of the Death Wobble on jeeps is due to the inherent design of inverted-Y/Haltenberger style steering they use. Because your tierod is connected to the drag link, everytime your suspension cycles, like hitting a small bump or pothole, forces toe changes between the wheels. So you are constantly having toe-in, toe-out, toe-in, toe-out. Braking is generally not a catalyst to death wobble.

Crossover steering like on our 80s all but eliminates death wobble. The only things that can really contribute to the wheels running in different directions is bushings, bearings, TREs, or a terrible alignment.

Death wobble is an indication that something is lose or has excess play in it. If everything is new and torqued then it’s something else. Check your caster, higher caster may be making the steering lose.

Great suggestions but I think I've fixed it.

It turned out to be a multifaceted issue.

• Bearings were not at the torque that I set them at originally. Pushing and pulling the wheel in a variety of different ways I found the ever so slightest bump of a loose wheel bearing. Bearings were tightened up and truck driven. I thought it was sorted but on the last quarter mile of my test drive I got the start of death wobble. It seemed reduced but it was also at slow speed.
• @roadstr6 suggested the panhard bar. I checked the bolts and found the frame side bolt was not as tight as I expected. I tightened both panhard bolts and checked radius arm bolts and bushings. I experienced some intermittent vibrations on my test drive but nothing close to death wobble.
• Finally I took the Cruiser to Discount Tire and had the wheels/tires balanced. They did find that the previous balancing job was not done correctly, and also found a slight hop in one of the tires. Unfortunately after 6 years, there's no warranty left. The Cruiser seems to ride smoother and braking is solid and consistent.

I've put 50+ miles on the Cruiser in a variety of city/hwy drivings with lots of braking. No hint as wobbling. I have a suspicion that when we got home from our last camping trip, I used the pressure washer and blew off some of the wheel weights stuck to the inside of the wheels. Discount Tire doesn't clean the surface before sticking on wheel weights and some might not have been adhered to the surface properly.