- Thread starter
- #21
OK OK, just talked to the shop and we will do the whole thing, balancing the tires and the wheel alignment...
I will keep you guys updated, thx a lot for your advise!!
"Death Wobble" HZJ78, modified (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter RTWbyBUSCHTAXI
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OK OK, just talked to the shop and we will do the whole thing, balancing the tires and the wheel alignment...
I will keep you guys updated, thx a lot for your advise!!
Quick ly in EN:
check steering linkage and tie rod ends (nobody mentioned this yet)
Check leaf spring shackles and straps to make sure the axle isn't wandering.
The klack noise mentioned may be something loose that instantly changes podition under load.
Hi
Habe deinen Thread erst heute gesehen.
Du berichtest von einem Klack in der Lenkung. Das klingt nach etwas halblosem, welches unter Last geräuschvoll die Position ändert..
Hast du mal dein Lenkgestänge (einschließlich Lenkgetriebe) und insbesondere die Spurstangenköpfe bzw die ähnlichen Verbinder an den Schubestangen geprüft?
Die bisherigen Antworten haben diese komischerweise bisher nicht erwähnt.
Das Klack könnte von einem ausgeschlagen, verkanteten Gelenkkopf kommen, der sich schlagartig löst. Das gibt ein plötzliches Spiel in der Lenkmimik, was das Whobble auslöst.
Wichtig: Zur Prüfung die Achse völlig entlasten / Räder vom Boden und mit dickem Schraubendreher auch lateral an den Köpfen hebeln. Die Gummibalge sind recht üppig, die verschleiern viel Spiel. Das war bei mir der Grund. Trat ganz plötzlich auf.
Auch die Klemmen an den geschlitzten Gewinden in den Stangen prüfen.
Weiterhin: Federbriden und Schäkel prüfen. Hast du die nach dem Lift mal nachgezogen? Eventuell wandert die Achse wenige mm. Sowas kann auch klacken.
Die Bremse dürfte für das Lenkverhalten bzw Spurhalten nur ein Problem sein, wenn sie schleift (mangelnde Rückstellungen z.B wegen fester Kolben oder eben blockierender Steinchen)
Ansonsten haben die Kollegen alles gesagt.
Viel Erfolg und Grüße aus Leverkusen
Ralf
- Thread starter
- #23
Thx Ralf, I will test this as well... But first things first, on Friday the balancing and the alignment, and then we see... I tried the above (just not "not under load")
(Komm ja aus Kölle. Grüße aus Hamburg in die alte Heimat...)
Good points above regarding panhard bushes, bent wheels & out of shape tyres. Also check the steering ball joints, look & feel for play in each one while somebody turns the steering side to side. Check the steering damper & it's bushes at the same time.
What was the caster angle on your wheel alignment report? It's not easily adjustable so just 'getting a wheel alignment' will not change anything, Usually the only thing they will adjust on a live axle vehicle is the front toe.
Often a wobble is a combination of things: Borderline caster, out of balance wheels, worn panhard bushes, worn steering balljoint - may not be very noticeable individually but if you have all at once...
Cheers
Clint
What was the caster angle on your wheel alignment report? It's not easily adjustable so just 'getting a wheel alignment' will not change anything, Usually the only thing they will adjust on a live axle vehicle is the front toe.
Often a wobble is a combination of things: Borderline caster, out of balance wheels, worn panhard bushes, worn steering balljoint - may not be very noticeable individually but if you have all at once...
Cheers
Clint
- Thread starter
- #25
Short update: I managed to get the two front wheels balanced, I asked them to do all 4 and get the wheel alignment done but... I am not very lucky. The gave up on the wheel alignment cause they couldn't get one screw loose (still had to pay the full 130€ for it) and then they forgot to balance the rear wheels...
couldn't test drive it yet, as the effect starts only when going 80km/h I could not go on the freeway yet. AND as of last week in Germany they doubled all speeding fines... better do not go to fast... I keep you updated...
couldn't test drive it yet, as the effect starts only when going 80km/h I could not go on the freeway yet. AND as of last week in Germany they doubled all speeding fines... better do not go to fast... I keep you updated...
Hi
Sounds like bad luck. Apparently you need a more knowledgeable workshop.
On our rigs you can mainly only adjust the toe-in (Spur) on the front axle.
Adjusting Camber (Sturz) and Caster (Nachlauf) can only be done by major interference with the fixed geometry of axle, springs and knuckle and require knowledge as well as SST. (Camber e.g. is adjusted by shims in the knuckle pinions.)
BUT: ANY reasonable workshop can measure these, without undoing anything! All they have to do is clamp on their measurement equipment and run it. At least they should have provided you a measurements protocol and help discuss and understand the values.
To your issue, it is not primarily about what the discrete figures are, but to see any discrepancies left to right. They could have done that!
They only things to undo are the clamps on the tie rod and rotate the rod in the threads of the tie-rod-ends (Spurstangenköpfe) to adjust toe-in..
If those are badly seized on your vehicle (which is not uncommon) so a reasonable workshop can't undo those, they are probably due for some serious TLC. That takes me back to my advice: Check tie-rod-ends for excessive play and check your axle bushes, shackles and straps to make sure your axle points straight and isn't wandering. And check your wheels for play (wheel bearing preload). All this with vehicle off the ground, on stands or lift.
Cheers
Ralf
Sounds like bad luck. Apparently you need a more knowledgeable workshop.
On our rigs you can mainly only adjust the toe-in (Spur) on the front axle.
Adjusting Camber (Sturz) and Caster (Nachlauf) can only be done by major interference with the fixed geometry of axle, springs and knuckle and require knowledge as well as SST. (Camber e.g. is adjusted by shims in the knuckle pinions.)
BUT: ANY reasonable workshop can measure these, without undoing anything! All they have to do is clamp on their measurement equipment and run it. At least they should have provided you a measurements protocol and help discuss and understand the values.
To your issue, it is not primarily about what the discrete figures are, but to see any discrepancies left to right. They could have done that!
They only things to undo are the clamps on the tie rod and rotate the rod in the threads of the tie-rod-ends (Spurstangenköpfe) to adjust toe-in..
If those are badly seized on your vehicle (which is not uncommon) so a reasonable workshop can't undo those, they are probably due for some serious TLC. That takes me back to my advice: Check tie-rod-ends for excessive play and check your axle bushes, shackles and straps to make sure your axle points straight and isn't wandering. And check your wheels for play (wheel bearing preload). All this with vehicle off the ground, on stands or lift.
Cheers
Ralf
I guess I believe you, but to be honest I don't understand how wobble could come from a settling (lowering) suspension, as this would increase the castor angle and make straight-line tracking more pronounced and wobble (and steering) more difficult. RAISING the suspension, of course, makes sense how that could contribute to death wobble....
When my death wobble started I had all the tyres balanced. The wobble persisted so I rotated front to back. The wobble still persisted. I then inspected everything, wheel bearings, suspension, damper etc.Everything seemed fine. [I never touched the castor or camber]
The wobble seemed inexplicable, and I was becoming resigned to the fact that my wobble was incurable. My tyres were about 50% worn, so I drove the truck wobble and all till the tyres needed replacing. I replaced the tyres with [cannot remember the brand] mud tyres, and the wobble completely vanished! Never returned. When those mud tyres wore out I replaced them with bighorn maxis, and never a hint of a wobble.
The old tyres that caused the wobble had slight runout. Even though they seemed to balance adequately, the up and down vibration was enough to set off the wobble. There may have been something about my truck [fj73 btw] combined with these tyres that created the wobble, and if these tyres were fitted to another truck they may or may not have caused a wobble?
The lesson in this story is, even if the tyres appear to balance ok, Don't discount the tyres as the problem.
The wobble seemed inexplicable, and I was becoming resigned to the fact that my wobble was incurable. My tyres were about 50% worn, so I drove the truck wobble and all till the tyres needed replacing. I replaced the tyres with [cannot remember the brand] mud tyres, and the wobble completely vanished! Never returned. When those mud tyres wore out I replaced them with bighorn maxis, and never a hint of a wobble.
The old tyres that caused the wobble had slight runout. Even though they seemed to balance adequately, the up and down vibration was enough to set off the wobble. There may have been something about my truck [fj73 btw] combined with these tyres that created the wobble, and if these tyres were fitted to another truck they may or may not have caused a wobble?
The lesson in this story is, even if the tyres appear to balance ok, Don't discount the tyres as the problem.
The wobble can have many causes but I was assured by someone who works on Landcruisers everyday that it was the most common cause. And they were correct. They added some shims and an hour or so and it was never a problem again.
They never even checked anything else they were so confident.
I cant stress how many landcruisers they do each week, but when I drive past there is always 20 ready to go or waiting to be done. There was 4-5 inside when I was there.
Mine was much worse when towing a small trailer with a 1HZ and H55F gearbox in it , so I guess the rear suspension was compressed and lower than normal and possibly made the front slightly higher.
Its possibly that as the suspension settles, and being fixed at one end and able to hinge at the other end, it alters the caster slightly
- Thread starter
- #30
Hello folks, Ok an update. After balancing and (half way wheel alignment) the wobble is gone. My BFG AT tires got about 8mm of thread left.
MAYBE it is time to change them. (The tire shop said so,... but it is their job to sell tires, right?), what is your opinion at how many mm´s left an BFG AT tire should be changed? 235/85 16
At the moment I could get the
MAYBE it is time to change them. (The tire shop said so,... but it is their job to sell tires, right?), what is your opinion at how many mm´s left an BFG AT tire should be changed? 235/85 16
At the moment I could get the
BF-Goodrich All Terrain T/A KO2 235/85 R16 120S for about 160€/p. (excl. fitting and balancing)
Good result! 8mm seems like a lot left to me. Here in aus 1.5mm tread depth is the legal minimum. Not sure about Germany? I usually change my mud tyres at about 3mm.
Tires shouldn't be changed by profile left, but by age. Any legal limits (in Germany: 1.6mm min profile, 10 years max age) is stupidly dangerous already.
Completely waering off an offroad tire within reasonable time in Germany is virtually impossible as we don't have gravelroads and rock crawling options here. Most German tires are used on road for the most, and with reasonable high speeds.
Tires get hard when aging. In particular offroad tires are prone to become dangerously slippery onroad then. Also the sidewalls may flex less and become hot and may eventually fail, in particular at Autobahn speed. Also the ride becomes quite harsh and loud as the considerably big surface wears unevenly.
If you use your vehicle on road frequently, in particular as a daily driver and in winter, I recommend changing tires latest at 5 years of age.
German TÜV recommends 6 years, but for offroad tires I consider this to be too late already.
The price for the BFGs is OK. They usually range 140-170€ in Germany. You may gain a bit of discount by negotiating cost for fitting and disposal of the old tires with different workshops.
I have the same tires. They are great offroad and onroad.
You will note quite a difference in comfort with new tires.
Completely waering off an offroad tire within reasonable time in Germany is virtually impossible as we don't have gravelroads and rock crawling options here. Most German tires are used on road for the most, and with reasonable high speeds.
Tires get hard when aging. In particular offroad tires are prone to become dangerously slippery onroad then. Also the sidewalls may flex less and become hot and may eventually fail, in particular at Autobahn speed. Also the ride becomes quite harsh and loud as the considerably big surface wears unevenly.
If you use your vehicle on road frequently, in particular as a daily driver and in winter, I recommend changing tires latest at 5 years of age.
German TÜV recommends 6 years, but for offroad tires I consider this to be too late already.
The price for the BFGs is OK. They usually range 140-170€ in Germany. You may gain a bit of discount by negotiating cost for fitting and disposal of the old tires with different workshops.
I have the same tires. They are great offroad and onroad.
You will note quite a difference in comfort with new tires.
- Thread starter
- #33
Hi, thank you, I didn't wanted to start a tire (or tyre) discussion... There are so many different opinions about it, just like which oil to use.. for example the guys at the farm in Western Australia where we worked (and had a 79 work ute...) they had "brand new" tires in the garage for some years to "mature" them... They said only when they are hard enough they are good to go in the outback... (OK, not many roads out there...) I will see... maybe black Friday brings some good dealz...
THX everyone for all all the tips!
- Thread starter
- #34
Ok, hopefully the last update. I got a great deal for new tires.... and guess what the "death wobble" died! Running great again...
so now I just have to check the rest of the landing gear...
Thank you all for the tips and help provided, much appreciated!
so now I just have to check the rest of the landing gear...
Thank you all for the tips and help provided, much appreciated!
Awesome to hear that this has been resolved! Now to keep that wobble from coming back, will require a bit of time and patience on your end. Make sure to rotate the tires often (5000km) and keep them balanced! Keeping them balanced can be a pain with larger tires, but worth the extra expense once in a while for ride quality and even tire wear. Thanks for reporting back! 
- Thread starter
- #36
OK, any advise on how to rotate them, from back to front? Or only fron right to left, or really rotating, like Front left will be front right and front right will be back right etc...?Awesome to hear that this has been resolved! Now to keep that wobble from coming back, will require a bit of time and patience on your end. Make sure to rotate the tires often (5000km) and keep them balanced! Keeping them balanced can be a pain with larger tires, but worth the extra expense once in a while for ride quality and even tire wear. Thanks for reporting back!
Will you be cycling in your spare into use so that all 5 tires wear evenly? If so, there are wheel rotation approaches for 5 versus 4. The web probably has significant resources that define the patterns plus the pros/cons for each. Once you select a pattern, it is normally advised to stay with that pattern for the life of the tire set.
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- #38
This is the rotation that I follow (the one on the right for 4wheel drive), but I have a spare that I rotate in with the rest of them. If you don't want to rotate your spare in with the rotation, just google up 4 tire rotation, pick one and stay with it.
- Thread starter
- #40
Ok ok, after the wobbling started again, I brought it to the garage to change the StabiRubbers (see pics before they changed them), they tightend the Wheelbearing as well... and NOW IT IS LIKE NEW, Like on train tracks, all good... [TouchWood]
