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could someone help advise?

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by 91fj80, Oct 19, 2003.

  1. 91fj80

    91fj80

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    Hello everyone, your advise please?
    I've resently purchased a 91 fj80 with 270k <mall terrain-soccar mom> miles. A half mile gravel drive is the most off roading it's seen. The truck has been dealer searviced with all records, and seams to run and drive fine. Trans shifts smothly 95% of the time if properly warm. The frontend has been rebuilt. The engine light is on due to a faulty oxy sensor and EGR valve. How improtant is it to fix this? My fuel milage is awfull ~9-11 but I'm in a hilly area, and have a heavy foot. Drivetrain hum's a bit starting at 45mph simalar to a much lower mileage example I'd previously drove. I had it in the shop to check the rearend because of a noise- they removed some rust from the drum to fix, but said there is some wear in the diff. The exhaust now bangs on the frame untill the engine warms up, though I had it fixed, it's back. How can I fix this?

    I'm strongly considering an engine conversion, considering the miles on this vehicle; How much longer can it last?? I'm still a bit unsure about the 3fe's trustworthyness- should I be? love this truck, and hope to enjoy the next 1/4 million miles in it if I can get it fixed up. I picked it up very cheap, and am planing to sell my car to finance an engine upgrade, and drivetrain rebuild. I figure I could do this and have less then half of what a comparable new rig would cost. I can't afford a new rig anyway.

    I tried posting this to the hardcore board a couple days ago, but hadn't gotten a reponce. Responces from anyone would be apriciated, espiecially those with 1st hand expiriance with conversions of any type.

    270k on my 91 and it still runs well, but I need more power/better mileage.

    anyone here done a diesel swap? can it be done without a lift?
    I'm considering a chevy 6.2, or 6.5 ltr turbo probably with gm auto trans.
    A 5.9 Cummings would be way better, but I haven't heard of it being done.
    I need to redo most of my driveline anyway (270k miles); would aftermarket parts hold up to the torq of these engines? what about the transfer case and auto trans? any idea of the mileage/durability I mite expect out of these combo's?
    Any other info on these swaps would be aprieciated.

    one more thing, anyone have expiriance with Man-a-Free's performance 3fe rebuild?
    how much horsepower/torque does it make?

    thankz in advance for your help :)
     
  2. PHAEDRUS

    PHAEDRUS

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    First things first,
    the 3FE kicks A$$
    seocnd of all yeah at 270 you are not unwise to be looking at rebuiling the drivetrain on the rig. Mine is a 92 that while underpowered for towing or flying up freeway hills at 80mph is great for cruising at 65-75 on flat land and absolutley beautiful of slick rock and sand at crawling speeds.
    for all of this you need to decide what you want out of this. Will this be your daily driver with minor suspension mods? ( read under 3" of lift and less than 33" tires. ) If this is the case your 3fe if it has been maintained shoudl still treat you right.
    If you plan is make this a transcontinental traveller with lots of load being hauled and possibly hauling a trailer or camper? if so the 3fe just isnt built for that kind of duty.
    You ask about a deisel swap, I was leaning toward a cummins td6 (original 12 valve variant circa 93-95) when I first started dreaming about this but the block is to tall to fit without apporx 5" of lift on the front end. the 5.7 litre chev has been done on a 91 with the toyota trans and adapter from marks from a guy in texas(someone will post his info I cant recall) was ok with the results. as far as the 6.2 or 6.5 litre turbo I think you are going out on a limb.
    By all means do not feel I am trying to dissuade you from going for the gusto on this one but It kind of helps to know what you plan on doing with the rig once your done before a lot of guidance can be given. for the record again I am going to run my 3FE for as long as it will go (176k now and good compression) but after that I am not sure about what I will do. I do know when I got mine I was all gung ho to swap the motor with something faster. Now I am content to just drive a little slower.
    Dave
     
  3. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    91FJ80,
    Some friendly advice that may help get you some answers now and in the future. State your situation, then clearly and concisely ask your questions. Your post had about a dozen questions interspersed throughout about 6 paragraphs and I gave up trying to keep track.

    It is also considered rude if you don't give us a nym or a name to call you. 91FJ80 doesn't endear us to you.

    >> The engine light is on due to a faulty oxy sensor and EGR valve. <<
    >> How improtant is it to fix this? <<

    First, you need to be certain these are the problems. We usually ask for the codes. Assuming your problems are as stated then the answer is "it depends." If you are in an emisions state then the answer is yes. If you are not, then you may be able to live with the EGR code. It is likely that these two problems would adversely affect your fuel economy.

    >> . How can I fix this? [exhaust banging.] <<

    It's probably the cat shields. Get some big hose clamps if you don't want to repair it with OEM parts.

    >> How much longer can it last?? <<

    With proper mainteance you may get to 500k miles or more. It depends.

    >> I tried posting this to the hardcore board a couple days ago, <<
    >> but hadn't gotten a reponce. <<

    :D

    -B-
     
  4. IdahoDoug

    IdahoDoug

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    Welcome to the group, and I echo Beo's sentiment on an anonymous writer - who are you?

    Give us a few insights into your plans for A vehicle and we'll better be able to tell you if your 80 can be made into THE vehicle, and how. For instance, if you're a college student and want it to last a few years and get your money back - just drive it. To tap the collective knowledge, ya gotta give us something to go on or you'll get little input. Garbage in, garbage out. Heh.

    IdahoDoug
     
  5. DanKunz

    DanKunz SILVER Star

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    Drive it till it dies.

    Rebuild the rear and front, replacing worn parts...

    Go part time on the worn out t-case...

    Get a high flow exhaust and catty...

    Live with "the slows" of the 3FE and when it kabooms put in a SBC or an imported diesel from aussie land that will mate to your tranny :D

    Oh, and listen to what those folks above say :slap: :cheers:
     
  6. Hltoppr

    Hltoppr

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    Probably your best solution if you want to do the conversion, and live here in the U.S. is a 5.7 Chevrolet. These conversions have already been done, and companies like Advance Adapters can set you up with everything you need.

    That is the best "more power" option.

    Now, have you thought about just driving it until the 3FE goes and then dropping in another 3FE? I know they're not too expensive through www.cruiserparts.net . You can get an engine with about 130K on it, or a transmission or t-case as you need it.

    I think you'll be surprised with how reliable the 3FE is, however.

    -H-
     
  7. Hltoppr

    Hltoppr

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    ...and yeah, if your O2 sensors are bad, that'll negatively affect gas mileage, as well as the EGR valve. Run the codes to find out what is wrong. Invest in a factory manual (Talk to CDan on this board, he can get one for you...).

    FWIW, my 92 gets about 10mpg in town, with short trips only, about 15mpg on the highway, light load, and 11-12 highway with a full load, 4 people, kayaks/bikes on the roof rack and full gear/baggage.

    (But my last 60 with a 350/750cfm Carter got 7-8mpg!)

    -H-
     
  8. CDN_Cruiser

    CDN_Cruiser

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    91 - welcome :)

    I know zero about engine swaps, but it always struck me as a bit of a PITA route to take. You said you just bought the 91 and now you're thinking of an engine swap. Wouldn't it be easier to just take the $ cost of an engine swap ($? - $2-5K??) and buy a newer TLC (ie post 93 with bigger engine and lower miles?). Seems like false economy?

    Cheers, Hugh
     
  9. PHAEDRUS

    PHAEDRUS

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    I cant beleive i didnt get flamed for my drunken ramblings.
    long and short of it
    decide what you wnat to do and do it despite all objections.
    Dave
     
  10. DanKunz

    DanKunz SILVER Star

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    I would have flamed you but I didn't understand any of it.


    on the cruiser front...I still stay fix it, keep it, then decide on a swap.

    Plan B would be to turn it around and invest in a newer model.
     
  11. 91fj80

    91fj80

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    Thanks for the replies; and I apoligise for not giveing a proper handle. :doh: My names Jason, how about calling me NCcruiserguy though. :D

    My plans for the truck include occasional heavy towing (probably above the trucks rating of 3500lbs)- and frequent light towing. I wouldn't mind slow going towing- if it wouldn't hurt the engine to work it like that. -anyone here towing heavy with the 3fe? it seams too weak. The truck will see modarate off roading and probably a few trips to canada <6000mile round trip>- hence gas mileage is important to me. I've also been drooling over all the great acessories out there for the tlc- an arb bull bar w/ winch, kaymar tow bumper w/ tire carrier, 3/4 roof rack, and other various goodies will eventually weigh the rig down. It also may end up a daily driver for a period- until I can afford a small gas saveing car. If I did manage to get a diesel in it, I'd probably never sell it.
    If I could manage to get 16mpg out of it, I could live with it being my only trans- but I think diesel is the only way I could achive that. I had a 6.2 k5 blazer years ago that got better then 16. Even towing near 10k lbs (I know- way too much- but it did it fine) I think it got slightly better milage then my cruiser is getting now. Diesel's are amazing. Of course it wasn't a bit faster then the 3fe- slower even, but it was as reliable and had way more torque.

    As far as I know the 6.2 is the same block/mounts that the regular 350 use's, and I also think the stock driveline (rebuilt) would hold up to this engine.
    I'd rather put in the 6.5 turbo- a friend has a truck with one- great power/mileage 15-20mpg and wieghs a full ton more then my tlc. I unsure if the stock drivline could hold this much power though- 240hp 515ft-lbs. I'm not even sure the drivline would hold it from the transfer back. I'm also unsure if this engine is the same as SBC- but I think it might be.

    A newer tlc was just slightly too expensive for me- and I don't really want such a nice truck. I like something I don't have to worry about scratching, or my dog ruining the leather. I'm accutally planing on covering the whole truck in Rhino lineing. :D Anyone done this? who needs shinny paint, I want some rugged texture.
    I picked this thing up cheap (4k) so I hope I can come out with a better truck for less money going this route.

    I don't have the computer codes on hand, but they did check out as oxy sensor- and I can clearly see a rusted out hole in the top of the erg. I have a manual- allready done fluids, lube, valvejob, plugs & wires, water and vac hoses.


    The questions:

    How much power will the tlc driveline hold (rebuilt with aftermarket parts)?
    -befor and aft of the trans- assuming the trans is the weak point. -the transfer if not.

    How much power can a modified 3fe make- will it lose its reliability?

    anyone have expiriance with the part time transfer conversion- results?

    can any swap be done without lift?

    this is probably way out there- but is there a way the firewall could be refabed to accept the cummings without turning the truck into a skyscraper? the only way I'd want to lift this truck is on portals- not any time soon.

    Do ford diesels use a simalar block as there gas v-8's?

    what's this about aussie diesel's? these are stock LC engines?
    would this fit my needs? how compatable? how much would it cost?


    that's all I can think of for now.
    Thanks again for your replys :)
     
  12. cary

    cary

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    [quote author=91fj80 link=board=2;threadid=6499;start=msg52944#msg52944 date=1066678915]
    \
    A newer tlc was just slightly too expensive for me

    [/quote]

    I hate to rain on your parade, but if you think a 93-94 with less miles (about $7000-10,000) is to expensive compared to the swap, you are fooling yourself. By the time you get done with the swap and rebuilding the drivetrain, you will be in the truck at least another $5000-10,000. You will still have a truck and interior with 270k+ on it and problems like A/C units failing, heater fans going bad, old window motors etc.. I have done upgrades/swaps on older cars, and it always costs more than you expect, even when you plan for extra expenses. In the end, you will still have an old truck.

    Also, lets just say you do the swap in the interest of saving gas money. If you take the minimum cost of the swap ($5000) and figure it brings your miliage from 10 to 15, at 20,000 miles driven per year, $2.00 for gas, it will take you nearly 4 years to recoup your investment. This is a long time for an old vehicle.

    My advice would be:

    1) Enjoy the 91 for what it is, a slow, reliable 3FE that since it was well maintained should easily go another 100,000 miles. Most likely you will get tired of the truck before the motor gives up; or

    2) Sell your other car, the 91 and pool the money to buy a 93-94.

    Cary
     
  13. ginericLC

    ginericLC Wagon Wheeler! SILVER Star

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    The 6.5 swap is common in Australia. linquip.com.au and New Brunswick Diesels are the two folks I was working with when I was considering doing a 6.5 swap into my 91. Mark's Adapters marks4wd.com.au sells the adapters to go to your A440. I thought about doing that and I bought the adapters to do it. The more I thought about it, I figured the Chevy tranny and a part time case was a better way to go. I have since given up on the project and I've been driving it as is. I also have a 94. You are looking at an honest $5,000 to do a turbo diesel swap. You will never get the money back out of it, even if you get the 20mpg they claim in Australia. The only reason to do it is because you want to. I have towed with my 91 a fair bit. It basically sucks. You are in 3rd gear most of the time. Anyway, I think you are getting some good info. For me, I decided a better route was just to buy a 94 and be happy with the 4.5 power and mileage.
     
  14. Landpimp

    Landpimp

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    "How much power will the tlc driveline hold (rebuilt with aftermarket parts)?
    -befor and aft of the trans- assuming the trans is the weak point. -the transfer if not."

    the trans(A440F) in a 91-2(same as 88-90 BTW) is HUGE, it's used in Toyota made Dana(sp) 5ton trucks/buses ect all over the world, the trany, t-case or axles are not a week point IMOP. I have heard that the A440F is a close copy of an Alision trany.....true I dunno?

    when my 92 3fe gets tired it will get a 5.7ltr, I have looked at all the other options and this makes the most sense.....for me.

    BTW in a 88-90 fj62 the 3fe is more matched to the rig, in a 91-2 it really is underpowered but it is a great motor.

    John H(w 3...3fe's)
     
  15. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Jayson,

    Better...

    >> The questions: <<
    >> How much power can a modified 3fe make- will it lose its reliability? <<

    IIRC, someone has done a turbo 3FE. I have read that the 3FE engine doesn't respond well to other attempts to hot rod it. As a stock engine they are extremely reliable as stated before. There is a Yahoo Group that is specific to the 3FE and another list somewhere (LCML?) that is SBC oriented (Vortec?) You will get a lot more educated opinions on those lists.

    >> anyone have expiriance with the part time transfer conversion- results? <<

    I have heard of one and I believe he also did a SBC swap in a '91. Guy's name is Mark ?? He frequents the 80sCool international list.

    >> What's this about aussie diesel's? these are stock LC engines? <<
    >> would this fit my needs? how compatable? how much would it cost? <<

    There were 2 or 3 diesel engines available in markets outside of North America. Spector ocassionally has an 80 series diesel engine for sale though they are very expensive. Compatibility is a tough question as some people have the expertise to get them running and others don't (e.g. me). There are a lot of issues you will need to resolve; primarily with the electronics. Cost = a lot more than a SBC.

    Don't underestimate the cost of an engine swap. I believe Cary has given you very good advice and very good price ranges. The wide variation ($5-10k) is because nobody knows your expertise, your access to tools, fabricating, electronics testing, etc. Are you going to use all new parts, new crate engine? Or, are you going to get everything from the pick-n-pull yards? Are you going to go carb or EFI. Those are all major cost decisions and depending on which way you go, you could easily spend more than $10k on an engine swap.

    I'm still trying to figure out how Bailey did OBA for $100. I've got four or five times that in tanks, brass fittings, SS hardware, guages, switches, hoses, and custom brackets and mine isn't even pumping air yet!!!

    -B-
     
  16. ginericLC

    ginericLC Wagon Wheeler! SILVER Star

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    In my opinion the later model Toyota diesels should only be considered for diehard enthusiasts who have spare time and money and vehicles. Nothing like having to wait to get a part from overseas. I had an opportunity to buy an HD80 with a 1HD-T with 68k km on it for $9900 US complete, it was wrecked and RHD. I thought long and hard about it because it had a whole bunch of cool non USA stuff. Finally, I decided that I was just asking for a headache as it could only be a parts rig and then where was a going to buy parts? You cannot run down to your local Toyota dealer and say I need an injection pump for a 97 LC Turbo D. Toyota USA is less than helpful when trying to locate parts for grey market vehicles. I decided that I could not afford to maintain it and fix it if I needed parts in the future. I also couldn't afford to have a vehicle down for months while I waited for parts. I guess I've been soured on waiting for parts with a Turbo Diesel Camry (which was US car) and my BJ60. Even in rural Montana when my Hi Lux broke down I had to wait for a fuel pump for 2 days for a 22R (probably the most common Toyota motor in the US) Using parts that weren't ever imported into North America for anything more than mining trucks just didn't work for me. It is cool to dream about it, but for most it isn't very realistic.
     
  17. 91fj80

    91fj80

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    Wow, you guys are great; thanks for all the help.

    great news on the driveline :) a440 is used in Bus's and 5ton trucks? Kewl :D So I'm thinking the Trans and TC would hold the power of the 6.5t then.

    TLC is awsome! gotta love a vehicle built & enginneered this well.

    I'm not underestimating the cost of the conversion and upgrades- probably over 10k, cause I'll need to hire help- for a toatal of +/-14k invested- or blown, depending how you look at it. kinda hard to stomac at the moment... havn't decided for sure yet.

    it would be worth much more...

    ok well... to me, if no one else ::)

    I wonder if it wouldn't be worth that to somone else though... financing would proabably kill 90% of the market. I wouldn't sell if it was done right though. What could go wrong with this conversion??

    As far as my mechanical skills- I'd say I'm above average, errr... maybe not here. I'm more adapt with computers then cars- but I think I could do a fair amount of the job myself. I have a mechanic friend who's interested in helping me and has access to a shop, (he's done several swaps- none with LC though) I have to do the research and get all parts; I'm thinking a lower miliage wrecked donor truck- or turnkey rebuilt engine is the best route, will take awhile to find though. will probably make a call to austrailia soon- probably a good place for info- do they offer consulting?

    Hey ginericfj80; Why did you decide the GM tranny was the way to go? & by part time tc, do you mean the converted toyo tc or gm? I would love to hear more about your expiriances with this. Any chance you still have the adapter?

    Cary- I like old trucks :D My dog seams to think she owns the truck, so a nice cloth interior that's easy to clean and durable is crucial. I hate taking care of a new paintjob- not to mention worring about scratches and stains. The paint on my truck is decent, but far from perfect. I really am planning on covering it in rhino lining or somthing simalar- would be a shame to ruin a good paint job (and the trucks value) with a covering most people might not like. I also would like more power then the new model lc's have- enough to pull a 30' airstream trailer a few thousand miles & over the rocky mountains without worry. Though I'll probably will have more money into it then a newer model with less miles- (or a used truck desinged for heavy towing- don't like the way they drive, the view, or the off road limits) I think I'll come out ahead in longitivity, because of the new parts. Seams a reasonable assumption right? Sure, minor things will go out but I can deal with that. my drivers window, and ac have recently been replaced- I'm sure there are other things that will go wrong but I can deal with it.

    question left over for anyone who knows, or could find out:
    Do ford diesels use a simalar block as there gas v-8's?

    Another question: Will the Ranger torque spliter from Man-a-free fit the A440?http://www.man-a-fre.com/parts_accessories/Ranger Torque Splitter.htm

    thanks again for all the help :) :cheers:
     
  18. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    >> What could go wrong with this conversion?? <<

    Nothing, nothing at all. Didn't that guy Murphy address engine swaps in some corollary to his law?

    -B-
     
  19. ginericLC

    ginericLC Wagon Wheeler! SILVER Star

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    http://www.geocities.com/~jjjoutside/ TBI 350 install by Jeff Jones into an 80

    http://www.linquip.com.au/ Linquip's V8 diesel conversions for 80s

    http://www.brunswickdiesels.com.au/ Brunswick Diesels

    http://www.marks4wd.com/ Mark's Adapter's go through them for advice, their parts will come from Advance Adapters, they are clueless about this conversion.

    You can start doing searches for wrecked pickups with 6.5s. I've done a ton of them, searches that is. They are expensive used. $2500 is about minimum. $5k is not unheard of for a newer low mileage one. Most I found already had over 100k on them. So plan on starting fresh with a rebuild if you go this route. Don't use the later model injection pumps as they fail every 40-60k. I'd go with a marine application mechanical injection pump. I would not attempt this project unless your friend knows a ton about diesels. It is a much different beast than a gas conversion.

    If you think your converted LC will be worth more you are mistaken. People who convert LC engines do it for their own enjoyment. You will never get your money back out of it. Also, Converted LC by owners sometimes bring less money than a stock one because there is always a question of the quality of the conversion.

    I decided the GM tranny was the way to go after looking into the expense of rebuilding the A440f and swap the shaft. Mine is worn and I have a significant clunk when shifting from reverse to drive.

    Part Time, I mean converting your Toyota full time transfer case to part time. Read about it on the Marks site.

    A Land Cruiser is not a good tow rig. 80s are OK, and 100s are a little better. They just don't have the wheelbase to do it. A big trailer (30 foot you said) like that will whip an 80 around like a rag doll. Also, since you have a 91 you may as well plan on converting to a fullfloater rear and at the minimum adding rear disc brakes. Trailer brakes are a must.

    The Ford diesel and the Cummins 6 cylinder are too heavy for an 80 series front axle. At over 1000lbs each they just are too much. Alternatives which I've considered and I still think are good alternatives are motors like the Isuzu 4bd1t found in the NPR trucks. Good mileage. I also did a lot of research on this and I believe it could be used with an A440 tranny with some minor machine work. Isuzu used at some times the A450 which is sort of a bigger cousin of the a440.

    The Ranger is for manual shift rigs only. If you wanted manual shift, go NV4500 with the 6.5. That is a near bullet proof tranny and has the overdrive you will need with the diesel.

    Finally, I would suggest you look at Andre's site

    http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/
     
  20. 91fj80

    91fj80

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    Beowulf: :flipoff2: ;) Guess that's a pretty stupid question since no one here has acctually done this particular conversion. I should have asked - what are common mistakes with engine swaps/ how often/easily can a conversion get screwed up?

    Genericfj80: Thanks for all the info and links, these are great!
    On the value thing- I looked for and probably would purchase this truck/engine combo for the amount I'd have to spend to build it- depending on the condition of course... Is it that unlikly that there would be another who would do the same? It would deffinatly be a nitch market and I'd probably have to sit on it awhile. I wouldn't do this to sell it anyway, so it shouldn't matter. I resently saw a fj80 with a vortec for 20k, not sure if it sold, I wouldn't pay that for it.
    No doubt on the towing, 30ft is to much for the 80- was thinking of the wieght rather then sail effect. I've freqently towed that much with my friends 6.5td truck. hmm.. what would you expect the maximum you could safly tow at highway speeds with this setup? Do you think a 25' airstream would be safe at 55? I'm definatly getting the full floater rear w/ brake upgrade... Someone here said: fj80- stops like a curling stone, I agree.
    I can't remember exactly where I saw it, but there was a rebuilt 440 for 750+ core somwhere online. Speaking of the trans, how difficult/expensive is it to modify it to work with a diesel?

    have a :) day.