Builds complete BJ45 rebuild start next week in Bolivia

[lostmarbles]

...... as I await some 14 volt plugs. And I will only fit those if I have checked if something is fault of making those plugs explode or if it was just a faulty plug?...

Didn't you say somewhere that your engine reconditioners applied 24V directly to your busbar Coen?

If so (and if you didn't check for damage then) ... then I suspect they blew your plugs at that time...... and that subseqent running just caused a previously-blown plug to "completely disintegrate".

So I think getting new 14V plugs may solve everything (if you're lucky) and you may actually have no fault in your superglow system.

 

[mailking]

Didn't you say somewhere that your engine reconditioners applied 24V directly to your busbar Coen?

If so (and if you didn't check for damage then) ... then I suspect they blew your plugs at that time...... and that subseqent running just caused a previously-blown plug to "completely disintegrate".

So I think getting new 14V plugs may solve everything (if you're lucky) and you may actually have no fault in your superglow system.

Nope, I was having problems starting in La Paz, directly after the rebuild. Being at almost 4.000 meters and the cold mornings it wouldn't start. Then I found out the the guys fried all the plugs with a direct 24 volt to the bus bar. I replaced them there. That is now 10.000 km ago and I am wondering why the new 14 volt plugs have gone so soon? May the direct 24 volt to the bus bar have damaged more than only the plugs? The engine was sitting outside, so no relays attached, only the resistor... What does that thing consist of that could fry? If 24 volt were to be put on the 'wrong' side [exit of the resistor] or would that have no affect at all?

 

[lostmarbles]

Nope, I was having problems starting in La Paz, directly after the rebuild. Being at almost 4.000 meters and the cold mornings it wouldn't start. Then I found out the the guys fried all the plugs with a direct 24 volt to the bus bar. I replaced them there. That is now 10.000 km ago and I am wondering why the new 14 volt plugs have gone so soon? May the direct 24 volt to the bus bar have damaged more than only the plugs? The engine was sitting outside, so no relays attached, only the resistor... What does that thing consist of that could fry? If 24 volt were to be put on the 'wrong' side [exit of the resistor] or would that have no affect at all?

Ah. I see your problem now Coen.

I don't understand how appliying 24V directly to the busbar could damage anything other than the plugs. But then I have no first-hand experience of superglow systems so my thoughts are largely worthless here.

But perhaps these two pics from the 1988 manual I have may be helpful to you. However I don't even know if they apply to your vehicle.





If this wiring looks like it applies to you, then I can post up the Toyota Fault Diagnosis Chart relating to it if you want.

 

[mailking]

If this wiring looks like it applies to you, then I can post up the Toyota Fault Diagnosis Chart relating to it if you want.

I have the books... No worries, and I appreciate it, you serving me the pages like this.

I will go testing things...

 

[mailking]

This is crazy. I am trying to find out what system I have? My RM [Repair Manual] is only from 1980 and doesn't speak of Super Glow Systems. I know my car is from 1984 and I am confused. So I would like to run by you some images from various copies of Manuals I got, and an image of my own Pre-Heater connection.

This is the image in my book, as far as I see it, there are 7 connections.

This makes a good comparison to the 1994 Repair manual found online as we speak about the Fixed Delay Type with also 7 connections.

Then we have the Super Glow Type from that same manual from 1994 with no less than 13 connections.

And then I am baffled as to the Pre-Heater Timer that sits at our passengers side firewall with 9 connections.

As to the Main Glow Plug Relay [or no1. Glow Plug Relay as some say]. The following images are from the 1994 Repair Manual:

Mine looks exactly like this [the 1994 Repair Manual says this to belong to the Super Glow Type]:

And not like this [the 1994 Repair Manual says this to belong to the Fixed Delay Type]:

This leads me to believe I have the Super Glow Type. Aslo because we normally have the 14 volt type glowplugs.

But I am confused by the Pre-Heater timer. Can anybody shed some light on why there are only 9 connections, and which they are in order to check things?

Adventurous greetings,
Coen

 

[mailking]

No news on new glowplugs. No where to be found in Brazil.

Cezar, trying to screw in some other glowplugs from a HiLux to see if capping the holes would solve the problem. Note the rare 5 door Bandeirante in the back is his.

When he discovers something still sticking in the no. 4 hole. With long pincers we remove the bottom part of the exploded glowplug.

This is how the exploded glowplugs look like. On the left you see the part that got stuck in the no. 4 hole.

Adventurous greetings,
Coen

 

[cruiserheads]

Check for a stuck relay. Happened to me on a BJ60 where the relay stuck and was sending constant power to the glow plugs and blew them just like yours.

Neil.

 

[1tontoy]

FWIW, my 1984 HJ47 is Super Glow system. My rig is 12V and uses 6.5V plugs. Since you have the light with the 'tornado' emblem on the dash, then you have Super Glow.

Since your dash light hasn't been coming on for you for 2 years (as you have said in other post), this leads me to believe your primary glow controller is not working properly and your rig is only using the after glow to heat the plugs (reading from the manifold sensor). It is 'common' in the Super Glow system for the primary to fail usually by user/mechanic error that fries it. In the Super Glow setup, the glow time 'should' only be about 10 seconds when bone cold. So, if you are having to glow for 30-45 seconds or longer, then it could be your motor is tired (but you just rebuilt it) or you could have a bad relay, like cruiserheads said. By the look of the plugs, there is a relay that is stuck open and basically keeping heat to the plugs and blowing them -- that's assuming that the guys in La Paz didn't blow them before you left.

The after glow is triggered by a manifold sensor that senses the temperature in the
cylinder head - and issues an after glow to ensure proper combustion. This can occur at any time - say you are in a very cold climate and the truck is idling or you are taking in very cold air, the after glow may be triggered.

I'd carefully remove and inspect each of the relays in the Super Glow system, starting with the ones under bonnet near the head lamp. Take the covers off, carefully, and inspect the contacts. If there is no visual damage, then they are probably OK.

HTH, I've had my HJ47 for a few years and have gotten to know the Super Glow system. If you do have a relay gone bad, there are plenty up in Canada b/c those cruisers are 24V. Or, you could always go with the wilson switch setup which is cheap and full proof, basically what is on older diesel cruisers.

OH, and that 5 door Bandy in the back is SICK!!

 

[mailking]

.... your primary glow controller ...

Did you mean the Main Glow Plug Relay [or no1. Glow Plug Relay as some say]? Or do you mean something else?

Okay... I have checked some things:

1- Pre Heater Timer
Did not check, because I don't know what to check as to the 9 connection system I have and I have not encountered a schematic drawing.

2- No.1 Glow Plug Relay continuity and operation
Is working like it should; no continuity on the relay, continuity on the plugs terminals leading towards the relay and continuity on the relay when applied 24 volt to the terminals leading towards the relay.

3- No.2 Glow Plug Relay continuity and operation
Is working like it should; no continuity on the relay, continuity on the plugs terminals leading towards the relay and continuity on the relay when applied 24 volt to the terminals leading towards the relay.

4- Glow Plug Current Sensor continuity
Is working like it should, continuity between the sensor terminals

5- Glow Plug Resistor continuity
Is working like it should, continuity between the resistor terminals

6- Water temperatur sensor
Is working like it should, reading an 1.8 Ω which resembles roughly the outside temperature of 30˚ here in Salvador as the engine is cold.

So I am curious how to test the Pre-Heater timer with 9 connections.

And another strange thing I discovered when testing the No.1 Glow Plug Relay. I applied 24 volt to test the relay. It closed and I could measure continuity. But then I measured the voltage on the bus bar and I saw a shocking result on the readout display of the multimeter: 24 volt! Shouldn't it be less? In order to work with the 14 volt glowplugs? Who regulates the voltage in a Super Glow System?

Adventurous greetings,
Coen

 

[mailking]

Ooopss, okay, now I see this:

Which states an initial 24 volt on the bus bar, am I correct?

Coen

 

[lostmarbles]

This is crazy. I am trying to find out what system I have? My RM [Repair Manual] is only from 1980 and doesn't speak of Super Glow Systems. I know my car is from 1984 and I am confused. So I would like to run by you some images from various copies of Manuals I got, and an image of my own Pre-Heater connection.

This is the image in my book, as far as I see it, there are 7 connections.

Maybe. Maybe not. Only two are labelled so perhaps only two slots are filled Coen.

(I'm just trying to explain here that you appear to be reading these images incorrectly. ------ Not every slot necessarily has a pin/spade in it.)

...But I am confused by the Pre-Heater timer. Can anybody shed some light on why there are only 9 connections, and which they are in order to check things?....
Coen

Well the images I posted yesterday (NZ time) come from the August 1988 FSM and they show a 13-slot plug on the pre-heating timer but only 9 of these slots are labelled so I'm assuming only 9 are filled. (Which matches yours I think.)

So I repeat my offer of posting up the inspection/test procedure for this glow set-up (in case you now realise it is actually likely to represent your system and you don't already have access to this information).

Ooopss, okay, now I see this:

Which states an initial 24 volt on the bus bar, am I correct?

Coen

Someone with experience of the superglow setup may like to chime in but I believe your 14V plugs do get fed with "full 24V" for a brief period.

Feeding them with excessive voltage like this makes them "heat up fast" so you don't need to wait around for a full 20 seconds like I have to on my old 1979 cruiser. (Not that I'm really complaining because I actually really like my older system.)

I suspect the "full 24V application" time period is represented by the "light lighting time" on the RH graph. In other words.....around 1 sec at 70 oC and 6 secs at -20 oC (with the temperature being sensed by your coolant/head sensor). ..... In other words, I think your dash light illuminates only when 24V is being applied.

And as 1tontoy has wisely pointed out ....Since your dash light hasn't been working for quite some time, you may have been missing this feature for that same period.

The other line on that RH graph shows that "afterglow" should be finished after 30 seconds or so regardless of temperature. ..... Well..... At least that is my interpretation of the particular system described in this manual. (And you are right to conclude that more than 1 type of superglow system is used on a 3B and my interpretation here conflicts with 1tontoy's experience with his later model HJ47 where he apparently says his afterglow is terminated by his temperature sensor and could remain on far longer than 30 seconds.)

Now the LH graph has me completely confused. Perhaps someone with personal experience of this superglow system can explain it for us? It appears to me to suggest that the busbar voltage varies from 18 to 24V. Yet I would expect you to be getting around 22 to 24V for the "quick heatup period" (lasting up to 6 seconds) and then dropping immediately to somewhere around 14V (roughly matching your glowplug rating) for the "afterglow duraction".

But as I say .... on the topic of superglow .... I've no personal experience at all Coen. (I'm just another text-book-reading discussion-facilitator.)

 

[1tontoy]

I read the RH graph like this: read from left to right. Anytime the water temp is in those temperature ranges, your afterglow is ON for bursts of seconds. If the manifold sensor (which I think has water in it?) continues to show a temperature within that graph, it will re-trigger the afterglow for the corresponding amount of seconds. This is why I say it is possible for afterglow to come on in very cold climates like dropping into an very cold valley. The Cummins motors do this, too. You may think your engine is warm, but if the intake air temp triggers the sensor, pre-heat is triggered to ensure proper burning of fuel. Could your manifold sensor be not functioning/connected/missing?

I read the LH graph like this: read from right to left corresponding with the RH graph. Initially, per the LH graph, the pre-heat is full 24V for ~7 seconds (corresponds with the light lighting time from RH graph for a completely cold engine).

You have to consider the water temp which is read by the sensor. The amount of time that the afterglow is triggered, per temperature, corresponds to the pre-heat voltage. So, afterglow time is dictated by temperature, and afterglow time dictates voltage. I think it is safe to say that afterglow is always 24V.

Of course, I'm no expert.

 

[mailking]

Maybe. Maybe not. Only two are labelled so perhaps only two slots are filled Coen.

(I'm just trying to explain here that you appear to be reading these images incorrectly. ------ Not every slot necessarily has a pin/spade in it.)

I understand, and I agree, but I was mere pointing out that the connector that is sticking in my Pre-Heater timer won't fit in any of the drawings that I could find.

Well the images I posted yesterday (NZ time) come from the August 1988 FSM and they show a 13-slot plug on the pre-heating timer but only 9 of these slots are labelled so I'm assuming only 9 are filled. (Which matches yours I think.)

So I repeat my offer of posting up the inspection/test procedure for this glow set-up (in case you now realise it is actually likely to represent your system and you don't already have access to this information).

Please do, I think I can use all the info that is out there. And if that answers my question why my Pre-Heater timer has a different connection than others and I can start testing things on that, I hope things become more clear by that time.

But as I say .... on the topic of superglow .... I've no personal experience at all Coen. (I'm just another text-book-reading discussion-facilitator.)

I am not holding you or anybody responsable for anything, I am the same as you, listening, analysing and trying to find out how something works and moreover why something doesn't work. Thank you for being you.

Adventurous greetings,
Coen

 

[mailking]

Could your manifold sensor be not functioning/connected/missing?

Interesting all the things you all trow at me. But I have neither heard nor seen an Intake Manifold Relay or a Sensor on a 3B. I think you must be confused by the 11B, 13B or 13B-T....?

Have to go to sleep now... Tomorrow 5.30 on the job again!

 

[lostmarbles]

Sorry Coen.

So I now see that your preheat timer has 9 pins (same as the one in my manual) but both the connector itself and the pin-locations look quite different. ....... So what I'm posting here may be of limited use.

But here goes anyway..

I'll start with a full page from the FSM first to see if it is readable in that format (or whether I need to split it up into half pages for readability).



Great ...That looks OK so I'll dump the rest on.

Edit...OOps. I see this continues onto the next page of the FSM (EM14) so I'll add that now....

 

[lostmarbles]

OK here's the rest:







Good luck

 

[mailking]

Okay, I already did all the tests, and they were fine, now only rest the Pre-Heater timer test, and there I stall:

I must check the Terminal 3 of the Pre-Heating timer connector [on the wire harness side]

So that is this side, right? Which one is number 3?

but that plug won't fit this entrance?

Or will it? I will have to look tomorrow and maybe take out the Pre-Heater timer itself....

Adventurous greetings,
Coen

p.s. if only I had some time, meeting the Dutch Consul tomorrow and the whole weekend is planned with fun stuff..... I haven't even seen the beautiful City of Salvador!

 

[1tontoy]

my cruiser is 2H so not sure if it is different

Here is what I am referring to. See the 'Water temperature sensor' which is plugged into the Pre-heating timer.

Again, this is for 2H Super Glow, so it could be different. In addition, mine has these two sensors on the manifold/block (2nd and 3rd pic)

HTH

 

[lostmarbles]

Okay, I already did all the tests, and they were fine, now only rest the Pre-Heater timer test, and there I stall....

Above, you say you've checked everything except the "Preheating Timer". Yet one of your earlier posts makes me suspicious of the method you used to test your "Glow Plug Resistor" Coen.

(The timer is the most complicated component and we have confusion over its "connector terminal layout" so it would surely be nice for us if the fault were to lie in a simpler component like this "Glow Plug Resistor". But perhaps I'm clutching at straws!)

Here is the post I refer to:

Okay... I have checked some things:
.
.
.
.
.
5- Glow Plug Resistor continuity
Is working like it should, continuity between the resistor terminals
.
.
.
Coen

If this is how you tested your Resistor then it doesn't appear to correspond to the FSM description here:



Furthermore, the following part of the FSM suggests to me that if this resistor is faulty it will leave your plugs exposed to the full 24V battery voltage (when the voltage should actually drop to around half that figure for "afterglow").



And this continuous high voltage would cause your plugs to explode like yours actually have!

And furthermore (if I'm not mistaken) this "glow plug resistor" would likely have been available to your engine reconditioners (to destroy) when they were applying jumper leads and trying to start your engine.

 

[mailking]

Hmmm my manual shows this:

And so I tested this, and there is continuity between the terminals.

Now if I test it like this:

Then I there is no continuity.

So both tests appear to turn out okay. Does this mean the resistor is okay?