CNBC - Did the Land Cruiser Fail in the US?

[ntsaint]

The video also completely ignores the introduction of the sequoia and it’s effect on LC sales. I do not believe that is a coincidence. It snagged a lot of buyers who just wanted the biggest Toyota suv and didn’t care about the prestige of the land cruiser.

There are a million different opinions on what happens next with the LC. But i have a close friend in the business that i trust. And he indicates that the LC is done. Next iteration will be LX only. Will be a sad day for sure.

 

[littlegreenmonster]

No body cares about off-road capability any more in their daily driver luxury vehicle. Range Rover/Land Rover is proof. Even the new Defender is pretty watered down. Tahoe is losing the solid rear axle which will be final castration of that truck. There just isn't any market space for a super expensive off road truck. The only real competitor the 200 has in my opinion is the G wagon in the luxury off road market and its kind of the same story. We can only get the highest end models in the U.S. while the rest of the world gets a much more utilitarian version. The difference is Mercedes is fine to have that model be a low volume prestige model.

I love my 200, but if we could get a 76 series GXL wagon in left hand drive, I would trade it in a heartbeat. Slightly larger than the 4Runner but still has the more utilitarian feel than the 200 series. A very similar feel to my 80 series, but new.

 

[TonyP]

No body cares about off-road capability any more in their daily driver luxury vehicle. Range Rover/Land Rover is proof. Even the new Defender is pretty watered down. Tahoe is losing the solid rear axle which will be final castration of that truck. There just isn't any market space for a super expensive off road truck. The only real competitor the 200 has in my opinion is the G wagon in the luxury off road market and its kind of the same story. We can only get the highest end models in the U.S. while the rest of the world gets a much more utilitarian version. The difference is Mercedes is fine to have that model be a low volume prestige model.

I love my 200, but if we could get a 76 series GXL wagon in left hand drive, I would trade it in a heartbeat. Slightly larger than the 4Runner but still has the more utilitarian feel than the 200 series. A very similar feel to my 80 series, but new.

The 4Runner has a longer wheelbase than a 76 and is much wider.
By comparison, the 76 has a nearly 100mm shorter wheelbase than an 80 series.
The 76 (and all 70s) is really rather small in person.

 

[littlegreenmonster]

You are correct that it the land cruiser is 3” more narrow and 3” shorter wheelbases. I’ve only been in a few but they felt bigger inside than the 4Runner. Maybe it’s due to the large windows.

 

[fasteddie2015]

I never thought I’d love a car more than my 99 Lexus GS 400 but when the right cruiser just kinda showed up I made the switch and couldn’t be happier.

Everything about the LC makes it even more desirable... the “failed” sales, the overbuilt nature, the iconic name.
Saying it’s “failed” is like saying the Stainless Rolex Daytona failed because of initially low sales. Nobody wanted them until Paul Newman wore one on screen. Failure? Bring it on.

 

[TeCKis300]

There are a million different opinions on what happens next with the LC. But i have a close friend in the business that i trust. And he indicates that the LC is done. Next iteration will be LX only. Will be a sad day for sure.

As much as I like the LX, this would be a tragedy. The heritage, recognition, achievement is all carried by the Land Cruiser branding. The LX benefits both directly from that DNA and the halo of the storied sister vehicle.

Toyota would be utterly short sighted to squander that branding built over 50 years of renown and achievement.

Toyota has failed to generate excitement for the LC. Core strength and durability are hard things to get excited about. It's like the nice guy car. Not exactly sexy qualities. Unless one directly needs that strength and are willing to pay $85k large for it. I consider myself a "Land Cruiser" owner. I may take heat for this, but I can firmly say I wouldn't care to own an LC. In stock form. Snore.

@Eric Sarjeant knows how to bring the excitement and has been killing it in new LC sales (top US LC selling dealership IIRC). There's many that can afford a new LC, but don't have the time, or don't care to build it themselves. At that price range, they want turn key capability, and excitement. That's what gets new car buyers to cut checks. I would be happy to own one of those mild builds. Even the Heritage edition is bringing the excitement - with deletions and minimal decorations. Obviously doesn't take much.

Perhaps we're missing the bigger picture and there's cooperate level considerations. Something like this - Toyota is the only major manufacturer to get trending worse fleet average economy in recent years. That's also on Toyota as they missed the huge EV opportunity by putting their investment dollars over the last decade into hydrogen. And now their Prius cornerstone is dying.

 

[JohnPW]

Not sure why the low sales numbers would cause Toyota to end the LC in the USA. They will continue to make the LC in Japan for other markets, so they’re not building it expressly for the US anyway. Keep bringing a few thousand per year as a halo vehicle. At the price they’re charging they’re certainly making a profit.

 

[Eric Sarjeant]

Some good points here. I don’t think the LC is dead. I know as of two months ago 300 was still not “green lit”. Meaning two years+ timeline if does get green lit. I have sold about 50-55 200s YTD (over 1/week) and I’m located in the most boring/flat state in the US, so I agree Toyota missed the boat on adding some flash.. Sex sells. That’s why I’m shipping them all over the US. I’d say 1/2 of mine are in TX. But anyway, having a $100k mild build one helps sell the $80k stock one. Same way when I built a $175k one I sold 5 mildly built $100k ones that month. Rolex sells a lot of Oyster Perpetuals because that two-tone Daytona is two watches down for x4 more. Same logic- the analogy works with a Heritage being the stainless steel Daytona.
Yes Sequoia hurt LC sales, but same logic..I sell tons of because have LCs priced $20-30k more are two vehicles down from them.

I respectfully disagree Toyota missed the boat on electrification. Yes, Prius is grossly unpopular, but so are all passenger cars. Looks at the flagship “car” sales leaders Accord/Camry sales—no different bell curves than a Prius. Not to mention that commitment and technology brought us to today where Rav4 Hybrid gets over 40mpg (and will be 50% of all Rav4 sales in 2020 [~200k]), 2021 Sienna and Sequoia are not available in gas models (only Hybrid)... all because of 20-years of Prius commitment. 2021 Tundra will be 5.7L or Hybrid options. So point being: Toyota is a slow mover but don’t write them off on their commitment to Electrification. They are putting alll their eggs in Hybrid/EV basket. You will see in the next 5 years 50%+ of their vehicles will be hybrid/EV.
Back to LC. I truly think/pray it will be back in new form for in MY23/24 in a Hybrid form like the new Sequoia. Most will hate on it (like they did the 200 in 2008) but Toyota will persevere with greatness and quality and we will be here in 10-years loving and adoring them.

 

[Lt CHEG]

Back to LC. I truly think/pray it will be back in new form for in MY23/24 in a Hybrid form like the new Sequoia. Most will hate on it (like they did the 200 in 2008) but Toyota will persevere with greatness and quality and we will be here in 10-years loving and adoring them.

I have no problem with a hybrid Land Cruiser as long as a gasoline powered version is also available. I hate electric vehicles and hybrids in general and believe they do far more actual environmental damage than any supposed greenhouse gas. However, while I could be convinced to own a hybrid small commuter type vehicle as a beater, I would never be willing to own something like a Land Cruiser in electric or hybrid form. That’s honestly my biggest fear about the Land Cruiser is that because US sales are not huge that our desire for gasoline powered vehicles over hybrids and electrics may prevent a gas powered Land Cruiser from coming over in the future, even if it is available in other markets.

 

[afgman786]

@Eric Sarjeant does that mean the sequoia will have a CVT instead of traditional transmission?

 

[fasteddie2015]

My wife drives a prius. With 17 inch wheels, low profile tires, and batteries low in the frame, it handles well. Good city car. I have no problem with hybrid systems. I've test driven Teslas and the acceleration is amazing. But I also love the toyota v8. I'm on my third (GS400, gen1 Tundra, 2015 LC). My point is this. If I can get the capabilities of the land cruiser, comfortable and solid enough to get me 850-1000 miles in a day comfortably, good acceleration and power on tap, I dont care what's propelling it.

 

[Eric Sarjeant]

@Eric Sarjeant does that mean the sequoia will have a CVT instead of traditional transmission?

I don’t know but doubtful IMO. Seems like too much weight. If they had to use a CVT, then a 1 speed launch transmission would be likely as in the Corolla Hatch XSE.

 

[Recon Aircrew]

If the next version emerges with a well performing and efficient 6 cylinder and edges a little closer to its roots, it will survive. Otherwise, I'm not so sure. Even I'm beginning to wonder how much longer I want to deal with 12-14 MPG.

My humble opinion.

 

[Madtiger]

If the next version emerges with a well performing and efficient 6 cylinder and edges a little closer to its roots, it will survive. Otherwise, I'm not so sure. Even I'm beginning to wonder how much longer I want to deal with 12-14 MPG.

My humble opinion.

Well, adding lift, bigger-than-stock BFG AT tires (adding about 17 lbs per corner), grille etc will make any 6-cylinder eat gas also.

 

[Robert B]

If the next version emerges with a well performing and efficient 6 cylinder and edges a little closer to its roots, it will survive. Otherwise, I'm not so sure. Even I'm beginning to wonder how much longer I want to deal with 12-14 MPG.

My humble opinion.

While Land Cruisers certainly came with 6 cylinder engines, I don't think any of them could be characterized as "efficient." My '92 80 Series got the about the same, even worse, MPGs as my current 200 series and previous 100 series.

 

[Recon Aircrew]

Well, adding lift, bigger-than-stock BFG AT tires (adding about 17 lbs per corner), grille etc will make any 6-cylinder eat gas also.

Fair enough.

 

[OregonLC]

Well, adding lift, bigger-than-stock BFG AT tires (adding about 17 lbs per corner), grille etc will make any 6-cylinder eat gas also.

Yes and no. Drag is drag, weight is weight, but a smaller engine can be more efficient. If you can achieve low-rpm torque by force-feeding a V6 the motor will be more efficient because of the larger throttle opening and therefore less pumping loss past the throttle body. Energy is also conserved by idling 3/4 of a V8.

 

[Madtiger]

Yes and no. Drag is drag, weight is weight, but a smaller engine can be more efficient. If you can achieve low-rpm torque by force-feeding a V6 the motor will be more efficient because of the larger throttle opening and therefore less pumping loss past the throttle body. Energy is also conserved by idling 3/4 of a V8.

I guess so......but my brother’s Raptor gets pretty bad MPGs relative to regular F150s. Both same engine except for different tuning. But his Raptor gets 1 mpg better than my LC with stock size BFG KO2.

 

[bloc]

A turbo v6 has very little to do with landcruiser “roots”

Yes and no. Drag is drag, weight is weight, but a smaller engine can be more efficient. If you can achieve low-rpm torque by force-feeding a V6 the motor will be more efficient because of the larger throttle opening and therefore less pumping loss past the throttle body. Energy is also conserved by idling 3/4 of a V8.

Tell all of that to people towing a large travel trailer with an ecoboost v6. When you consider the AFRs required for forced induction to work well without melting pistons you often end up worse off than a larger engine. Direct injection helps a lot but EGTs can still get pretty bad if there isn’t enough fuel for the cylinder pressures.

It’s a little different, but the main reason Ford’s new superduty gas v8 went to 7+ liters and back to pushrods is fuel efficiency. They found that when needing to provide sustained horsepower a larger displacement engine turning less RPMs is actually more efficient.

A stock landcruiser with a turbo v6 will likely gain significant fuel efficiency, for just the reasons you list. But when people increase drag via front bumper, lift, LT tires whether AT or MT variety, max tracks and roof rack hanging off everywhere, totally offsetting the careful work they put into our beloved 4x4 refrigerators having the best aero they can. Suddenly it’s as though you are pulling a trailer every time you are moving.

I predict the turbo v6 using more fuel on modified rigs than our current v8s.

 

[TeCKis300]

The 5.7L gets a bad rap. It's not that inefficient of an engine considering it has to motivate 6000lbs of bruiser, 4x4 drivetrain with its overbuilt transfer case, diffs, CVs. 18mpg fwy is in the ballpark of its competitive set that doesn't have overbuilt drivetrains or chassis. Then consider it is powering roughly 2x a sedan in mass and aero... 13 mpg city, well, that's just the physics of accelerating said mass, without the benefit of hybrid tech to recapture kinetic energy and keep the ICE drivetrain in its most efficient parts of its fueling map.

Even the Ford V6 EB gets a bad rap. 400hp in whatever guise is going to take fuel. Carry more load, lay into the throttle, more gas. Thank you government for further giving us watered down ethanol fuel, and that's a ~10% direct hit to MPG efficiency.

I don't think any single fixture of the current LC defines it. Not solid axles, not V8, not the turbo 6 diesel that's in international variants.

What defines it is durability and capability. The new cruiser well surpass the current one in all performance metrics.