Can't stand the Ironman lift anymore, advice needed

[l3n0x]

Hello!

So a couple of months ago I've deleted the AHC & installed an Ironman lift kit. I had to do this, because all four rams were rusted away, and so were the globes, actuators and lines - It would've cost a fortune to replace all of these.

Anyway, the thing with the IM kit is, it is just way too stiff, especially the front.. It rides great on the highway, but on bad roads & offroad it just feels like the suspension is welded together. The extremum of this is on offroad, where there is literally 0 articulation.

My problem is, that because of the very bad articulation I have a feeling that the springs/TBars are way too heavy for my ride. And this would mean that I would have to replace those in order to get a usable vehichle.

But then I don't know if a new spring configuration would work well with the Foam Cell Pro shocks, or if I had to swap those as well? Because if I have to swap the whole kit for another brand, then.. it would hurt very much.

So basicly, is there any cheap(er than getting a whole new kit) way to get the truck back to a usable state? I don't mind if it gets floaty on the highway, because I don't use it there that much, but it's just ridiculous that I can't go faster than 2mph offroad because it feels like the frame is going to snap in half or will roll the truck over on its side...

I now have an 1-1.5" rake towards the front & was wondering if correcting this (but then I'll lose droop which now is 2.5") would make it better, or raising the preload will just stiffen it up more?

 

[suboptimusprime]

Tell us more about your truck. Is it stock or have you added (or are you planning to add) bumpers, drawers, keeping tools, fridge, other heavy stuff inside full time, etc. If springs don’t match weight of the truck you’ll be unhappy. Others may know more about various spring pairings with the IM struts but they’ll need this info to advise.

 

[Manhattan]

Before you do anything drastic (and expensive), maybe have a mechanic who knows these trucks take a look at what's going on. Your report just doesn't align with other reports on that setup.

Do you know which springs you have? I have the IronMan 13B springs - the "Performance" or 0-440 lbs springs and Foam Cell FE Ironman shocks. And, other than the front bumper and winch, I carry zero weight in the truck - no fridge, drawers, 3rd row removed. The truck rides great - better than stock.

It's decent flex... Better in the rear, front's not that bad
(old pics - before the front bumper)

 

[l3n0x]

Your report just doesn't align with other reports on that setup.

That puzzles me the most as well! I've bought it because everyone seemed to like it here.

However, mine is a diesel, so it has different torsion bars (TOY051) - maybe that's the issue?
The rear springs are the lighter one out of the two, so TOY013B, same as yours. Although mine came in the new, lime green color.

Which brings up another interesting thing: I've heard IM changed the valving on the FCP shocks this year, and I have the newer ones - while all the IM users here seem to have the older ones. Maybe that and the diesel rated TB's adds up enough that it makes it bad.

My truck is a stock diesel LC100 (came with AHC in europe, no 3rd row from the factory). I use it pretty much alone, or sometimes with my fiance, but even then we travel very light (max. 60lbs lagguage). I don't have a winch or aftermarket bumper, no roofrack, and I think it will remain like this for a good couple of while.
But about a month ago, we took my parents with us for a trip, so 4 person, lagguage (~200lbs), and the ride was still horrible. Frankly, there was no difference at all, compared to riding it alone.
And one more interesting thing: the bodyroll is worse in roundabouts now, than it was with the (failing) AHC - which kind of seems to be contradicting for all of the above, I know.

 

[wvrx]

Are you airing down offroad?

 

[l3n0x]

Are you airing down offroad?

Yes I am. It makes it better on flat gravel, but on "real" offroad, with greater than a couple inches of bumps, it doesn't make a difference

 

[nitteo]

did you upgrade to extended sway bar links? you wont get full flex without extending sway bar links. i am on IM GAS and I love them.

Full flex front:

full flex rear:

 

[l3n0x]

No, I have the stock Toyota sway bars and links (these are all new). I can't get the extended ones in Europe, but the thing is, that this suspension won't even flex a bit. We're not talking proper articulation when you'd need the extended ones, it's even the first couple inches that it won't do.

Anyway, I've clocked in 4 turns into the TB's.. Well the front end did get a bit lighter, and steering feels a bit more sensitive - not sure yet if this is good or bad or like it or not.

The speedbumps still makes my back ache, so I guess it didn't improve in stiffness.

 

[KC100series]

I've had a similar experience with my foam cell shocks. I can get articulation in the rear, but it rides very very stiff. I have a mixed setup with OME t-bars and their lightest lift springs and iron man foam cell shocks. I do have load range E Cooper ST Maxx's which I'm contributing to some of the stiffness. The ride is certainly not where I hoped it to be, feels like I'm driving a 3/4 ton truck with my current setup

 

[l3n0x]

I've had a similar experience with my foam cell shocks. I can get articulation in the rear, but it rides very very stiff. I have a mixed setup with OME t-bars and their lightest lift springs and iron man foam cell shocks. I do have load range E Cooper ST Maxx's which I'm contributing to some of the stiffness. The ride is certainly not where I hoped it to be, feels like I'm driving a 3/4 ton truck with my current setup

Yeah, I think I’ll have to get another set of springs/tbars(

the 4 clockwise turn on the tbars now means that it is topping out on speed bumps so I guess there is not enough droop left

 

[Gassiper]

Hello!

So a couple of months ago I've deleted the AHC & installed an Ironman lift kit. I had to do this, because all four rams were rusted away, and so were the globes, actuators and lines - It would've cost a fortune to replace all of these.

Anyway, the thing with the IM kit is, it is just way too stiff, especially the front.. It rides great on the highway, but on bad roads & offroad it just feels like the suspension is welded together. The extremum of this is on offroad, where there is literally 0 articulation.

My problem is, that because of the very bad articulation I have a feeling that the springs/TBars are way too heavy for my ride. And this would mean that I would have to replace those in order to get a usable vehichle.

But then I don't know if a new spring configuration would work well with the Foam Cell Pro shocks, or if I had to swap those as well? Because if I have to swap the whole kit for another brand, then.. it would hurt very much.

So basicly, is there any cheap(er than getting a whole new kit) way to get the truck back to a usable state? I don't mind if it gets floaty on the highway, because I don't use it there that much, but it's just ridiculous that I can't go faster than 2mph offroad because it feels like the frame is going to snap in half or will roll the truck over on its side...

I now have an 1-1.5" rake towards the front & was wondering if correcting this (but then I'll lose droop which now is 2.5") would make it better, or raising the preload will just stiffen it up more?

Ive noticed the same thing. The ride is great for the most part but hitting a small bump on a relatively smooth road feels like running over a boulder in a log wagon. Didn’t have this issue with foam cells in my GX.

 

[l3n0x]

Ive noticed the same thing. The ride is great for the most part but hitting a small bump on a relatively smooth road feels like running over a boulder in a log wagon. Didn’t have this issue with foam cells in my GX.

Exactly!

 

[l3n0x]

I wonder if it is normal to have a good 2" rake? it looks pretty ugly, but that seems like the max I can get out of the fronts.. I'll probably won't get away without either buying new springs or putting a couple 100 lbs of cement in the back as ballast

 

[suprarx7nut]

For the ongoing debate between AHC repair or swap, I'd be curious to see your final all in cost in $ and time when this is said and done.

I suspect for the cost of a new lift kit and the inevitable one or two modifications to get it dialed in, and the associated alignments and labor, the cost of second hand and new AHC components isn't far off. I could be wrong, though, so data is always good.

 

[l3n0x]

For the ongoing debate between AHC repair or swap, I'd be curious to see your final all in cost in $ and time when this is said and done.

I suspect for the cost of a new lift kit and the inevitable one or two modifications to get it dialed in, and the associated alignments and labor, the cost of second hand and new AHC components isn't far off. I could be wrong, though, so data is always good.

Here is my math.

For this to work I have to live in Europe & have an already rusty truck:

1, So I've bought the truck for $14k USD worth of local currency.
2, The problem with my AHC was a bad (not as bad as the Ironman kit though) ride, 4 rusted, out of which 2 leaking rams. I figured that as a bare minimum I would need 4 globes and 4 new rams (shocks). That, by its own cost around $2.3k USD (in local currency). I had a feeling, that if I undo anything, things will snap/round off because of the rust, and I was not wrong. 2 out of 4 lines that feeds the rams rounded off the 12mm bolts that attaches them to the rams. I understand that I could have saved these lines if I took off the body and/or the fuel tank and what not, but either way, after the lift & when removing the AHC lines, all of the lines were corroded far into the actuator body & needed cutting. So this would've ment 4-5 new AHC lines & 4 new actuators (which btw hold the valves, and can also go bad, people just never talk about it). This would've brought the prices up in the $7-8-10k USD range of fixing the AHC.
3, The truck will be happy to see another 3-4 years before has to be salved because of the rust eating it away. It was a bad decision to buy it in the first place

^^
So because all of the above, I've started to think about an option that can keep the truck some more on the road, but wouldn't mean an investment that costs 2/3 of the trucks value. This is why I wanted to buy the OME kit (around $1000 USD here), but because of all the bad reviews of that, and all the good reviews about the Ironman I figured I'll drop in another $700, and go for the latter.

So my final cost was $1700 USD for the kit, and another $170 USD for renting a workshop & a lift to install it.
To be fair at that time I didn't know the AHC lines and actuators are caput, so I went with the following logic:
I go and get the IM kit (which everyone likes) for $1700, and pull the rest of the life of the truck off with it
OR
I start fixing up the AHC, which would be a minimum of $2.3k, and maybe a month later the pump will fail, I'll replace that for $1k, then a month later the idk, proportioning valve will fail (or whatever it's called).. So it would've been a never ending story. It's a 20 yo truck afterall.
It turns out, that still this was the better of the two ways to choose, as soon as I would wanted to install the new globes and struts, it would've turned out that I'd need a lot more.
Yes, you can buy these used, but these cars are rare in Europe to begin with, then there is the factor of buying a 20 yo used AHC component.. Might live 1 month, might live 1 year, might be already garbage. I wanted something dependable in this 3-4y span remaining for this car, and for that the IM kit seemed to be the wise choice.

If it was a rust free truck & I'd plan on (or would be able to) keeping it for 10+ years, I'd probably fix the AHC - but in that case the AHC would've only needed 4 new globes and a fresh set of fluid to begin with.

 

[reznunt]

If the ride is as stiff as you say, and you don't drive it on the highway much, I'd take the sway bar out. That'll fix your articulation problem.

People often associate harsh ride quality with stiff springs when overdamped shocks are usually the culprit. Stiff springs with soft shocks (like OEM) won't feel harsh but will feel bouncy. Soft springs (like OEM) with stiff/overdamped shocks will feel harsh.

 

[l3n0x]

Also sorry for my crappy English

 

[l3n0x]

If the ride is as stiff as you say, and you don't drive it on the highway much, I'd take the sway bar out. That'll fix your articulation problem.

People often associate harsh ride quality with stiff springs when overdamped shocks are usually the culprit. Stiff springs with soft shocks (like OEM) won't feel harsh but will feel bouncy. Soft springs (like OEM) with stiff/overdamped shocks will feel harsh.

I understand this, and also though the shocks are what are wrong, but that's contradicting the fact that there is almost no articulation with this suspension - which says to me that the springs are too stiff. I'd think that is something independent from the shocks.

 

[reznunt]

I understand this, and also though the shocks are what are wrong, but that's contradicting the fact that there is almost no articulation with this suspension - which says to me that the springs are too stiff. I'd think that is something independent from the shocks.

See if the swaybar delete fixes the articulation issue. If not, then that means the springs are too stiff for your weight.

My avatar pic shows my truck with almost no droop on the driver side and that's with stock TB's/extended links. The swaybar is restricting articulation.

Side note: Extended swaybar links do not increase articulation. The movement of the arms are still bound together.

 

[l3n0x]

Okay, so to put the articulation problem into perspective:

If I stop the front left wheel on top of a speedbump, the car then is taller on the left side a fair amount than on the right. As much as the height of the speed bump.
If I put both front wheels on a speedbump, the truck exactly becomes a speedbump worth taller in the front, than it is on level ground.
The rear is not that bad, it will articulate such that the height is “only” 3/4 of the speedbump