Bud Built vs Slee skid plates - Heat Build Up (1 Viewer)

[kcjaz]

In this thread (New Slee Steps/Sliders and Skids) @use2bn83 talks about how Slee's skid design has considered potential heat build up under the truck. I had not thought of that and see where that could be a potential issue.

To me the Bud Built design looks more bullet proof in that it essentially encloses the entire underside of the truck with steel plate. It looks like the underside of a Abrams tank. The Slee skids look more "engineered" in that they don't completely encase the underside in steel plate but rather cover the critical or most vulnerable areas, uses varying thicknesses of steel, and has what look like vents and drain holes.

I'm curious if anyone with the full Bud Built skid plates has experienced any problems with heat or muck build up that Slee has seemed to engineer a solution to. I am sure that there would be some heat trapped with the Bud Built design compared to stock and potentially mud and dirt could get built up too and be a PITA to clean out but are those things really causing anyone big enough issues that would make them want to trade for a system with less complete protection?

I'm not looking to start any kind of major Slee vs. Bud Built debate here, or question the sincere thought and design efforts that have gone into both products. Both seem pretty amazing, well thought through products, and are designed and made to high quality standards. Like anything else, there are pros and cons to each design and the answer likely depends on intended use and user preferences.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

BudBuilt 200 Series Skid Plates, Sliders, High Clearance Rear Bumper

Frequently Asked Questions Hey guys, so I've seen a few of the same questions comes in on PMs, and a few single questions, that we thought of, but realized I never mentioned them. Skid Plates 1) Why no holes along the bottom of the plates? Could help with mud removal, heat, or weight savings...

forum.ih8mud.com

Here was the OG thread from when Bud first made these skids. See post #241 at the top of page 13 about Bud’s heat testing.

Hopefully this helps facilitate a healthy discussion.

Side note: man a lot has changed for me personably since that thread... memories.

While we’re on it. To talk the whole “engineering” piece. Please read this post below. It talks about why BB skids has all the reinforcement on the inside of the skid, not exposed to the outside.

Dissent vs Budbuilt aluminum skids?

I have an 09 LX that I mostly use for Overland but do like to occasionally thrash off road at the local ORV Park. Looking at skids and I would like to keep my build as light as possible. Does anyone have experience with both? I'm sure they would both do the job just fine. However, the dissent...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[CharlieS]

I'll leave this to the pros, but based on the information available to me, I chose the BudBuilt (expedition) skids. The design made more sense to me, personally.

No matter which way you land, you'll end up with something much better than the factory setup for underbody protection.

 

[Madtiger]

No matter which way you land, you'll end up with something much better than the factory setup for underbody protection.

Stronger for sure and more protective......but you pay for it in significantly more weight...a lot more weight.

 

[CharlieS]

I'm not debating that. The OP is asking about Slee and BudBuilt skids, so my assumption is that they want or need them.

Also, the stock skids are surprisingly heavy for the protection they provide. I have a pile of what I removed in the garage that I can weigh if anyone is curious.

I noticed more difference from the front dual batteries than I did from the skids. The skid weight is low on the vehicle, and distributed over more of the length of the vehicle, so it isn't as noticeable.

I am with you that if you are trying to avoid adding weight, then you probably shouldn't install aftermarket skids (or sliders, bumpers, dual batteries, storage boxes, etc.).

 

[Romer]

Both companies are reputable companies that test and validate their products. Not all vendors do that. Since Slee is local and I know them well I am more familiar with how well the design, test, rpototype, modify, prototype and then hit production. I expect Budbuilt does something similar

The skids are good examples as they had prototypes at the LCDC last August but continued testing until they were satisfied and released a production build this year. They did the same thing with the 200 series bumper. They had a prototype when I bought my truck, but were in test/development for almost a year until the released it

Like I said I am sure Bud Built does something similar

I have had a bad experience with a vendor who doesn't do this type of cycle before releasing it for production. I bought a rear bumper from a major company for my daughters truck. The bumper did not fit well, there were gaps were as the picture on the web site didnt have any. There response was it fit fine on their test vehicle. I was told I had to buy the basket so the license plate bracket would work and when I got the basket it didnt fit. Their response was they were for the FJ Cruiser and they assumed it would work, but hadnt really tested it. They then told me the bumper was for offroad use only and they didnt have a license plate solution without the basket . . . really? I did call the owner of the company who said that wasnt right and resolved it. There were several other workmanship and design issues. They did their best to resolve my issues and my comment is they didnt put the proper design/prototype cycle in before making it available to the market.

That is why the test, prototype, modify test prototype production cycle is very meaningful to me

I am having the Slee skids put on today and replacing my rear ARB bumper with the Slee Rear.

 

[99toylc]

"Stronger for sure and more protective......but you pay for it in significantly more weight...a lot more weight."

Not necessarily, as the stage 4 armor is available from Budbuilt in aluminum and offers a significant weight reduction comparing to steel (only 110lbs total with removal of about 50lbs of factory stuff the result net is only +60lbs) and that is with gas tank skid plate included.

 

[CharlieS]

"Stronger for sure and more protective......but you pay for it in significantly more weight...a lot more weight."

Not necessarily, as the stage 4 armor is available from Budbuilt in aluminum and offers a significant weight reduction comparing to steel (only 110lbs total with removal of about 50lbs of factory stuff the result net is only +60lbs) and that is with gas tank skid plate included.

I'm running with the 3 piece aluminum expedition skids, so there is even less of a delta.

 

[Moby]

I'm not saying that the vendors in question didn't do rigorous testing. But just saying it was tested isn't sufficient to answer the original question here. We need to know the testing methodology. For example, we put heat probes. calibrated and accurate within ABC, in XYZ underhood locations and in the engine, transmission and t-case oil. We recorded baseline temps under the following conditions with averaged over N runs. Then we installed the skids and recorded temps under the same conditions and same number of runs. Results are the delta between stock skids and test skids. A follow up might be if there was a delta, is it significant enough to do damage. Unless the delta is large it might be hard to determine this without understanding the operating specs of all components.

Some might say that this is overkill. OK, maybe, but that is a different question. If the question we want to answer is if the skids change the running environment of the vehicle, we need to know how the testing was done.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Both companies are reputable companies that test and validate their products. Not all vendors do that. Since Slee is local and I know them well I am more familiar with how well the design, test, rpototype, modify, prototype and then hit production. I expect Budbuilt does something similar

The skids are good examples as they had prototypes at the LCDC last August but continued testing until they were satisfied and released a production build this year. They did the same thing with the 200 series bumper. They had a prototype when I bought my truck, but were in test/development for almost a year until the released it

Like I said I am sure Bud Built does something similar

I have had a bad experience with a vendor who doesn't do this type of cycle before releasing it for production. I bought a rear bumper from a major company for my daughters truck. The bumper did not fit well, there were gaps were as the picture on the web site didnt have any. There response was it fit fine on their test vehicle. I was told I had to buy the basket so the license plate bracket would work and when I got the basket it didnt fit. Their response was they were for the FJ Cruiser and they assumed it would work, but hadnt really tested it. They then told me the bumper was for offroad use only and they didnt have a license plate solution without the basket . . . really? I did call the owner of the company who said that wasnt right and resolved it. There were several other workmanship and design issues. They did their best to resolve my issues and my comment is they didnt put the proper design/prototype cycle in before making it available to the market.

That is why the test, prototype, modify test prototype production cycle is very meaningful to me

I am having the Slee skids put on today and replacing my rear ARB bumper with the Slee Rear.

Sadly, I think I know the company you’re talking about from my FJ days. That was a reason why I wanted to join Bud, I was let down by every company I bought parts from except for ARB (winch bar, air lockers), Warn, and Bud (fixing the terrible Expedition one rear bumper, repairing my frame from All Pro skid plates, and just having his Tummy Tuck.

I remember before I was with Bud, I called Slee and Christo spent a hour talking to me about his rear bar. When it comes to an available 200 rear bar, the best one in my eyes is the Slee and I want one.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I'm not saying that the vendors in question didn't do rigorous testing. But just saying it was tested isn't sufficient to answer the original question here. We need to know the testing methodology. For example, we put heat probes. calibrated and accurate within ABC, in XYZ underhood locations and in the engine, transmission and t-case oil. We recorded baseline temps under the following conditions with averaged over N runs. Then we installed the skids and recorded temps under the same conditions and same number of runs. Results are the delta between stock skids and test skids. A follow up might be if there was a delta, is it significant enough to do damage. Unless the delta is large it might be hard to determine this without understanding the operating specs of all components.

Some might say that this is overkill. OK, maybe, but that is a different question. If the question we want to answer is if the skids change the running environment of the vehicle, we need to know how the testing was done.

What you’re asking is not overkill, that’s what Bud did.

He has 15 sensors that record ambient temperatures on his little computer. I had a scan gauge that showed all the normal temperatures, coolant, ATF pan, T/C to name a few.

While in North Carolina, Bud would conduct driving sessions with factory skids, no skids, and BB skids. Then we went backroad driving, then we went to uwharrie for low range wheeling. This was over a few weekends to get base numbers, and it was about 8 hours each session. What we found was it didn’t make a difference at all, skids or none at all. I took the stuff to Savannah and recorded city traffic for all three skid configuration also.

Then for Lone Star ‘17, we both went to east Texas and I did everything I could to over heat something in 90°F heat. Then the next day, I ran the easier trails, but with no skids, but the same low range chugging and lugging in the same weather. Basically he wanted me to mimic conditions as close as possible.

When those 22 days of testing were over (in total) he said, “well, you can’t beat thermal dynamics. Heat rises, it’s just how it works.” Toyota puts in a cast aluminum front diff with heat sink so they don’t need to have cooling vents like on the 4Runner. So you don’t run the risk of getting grass seeds or mud shoved into your radiator from holes in the front of skids. Which would really increase temps.

The shields behind the motor are really simple and more for cost reasons.

One thing I learned about Bud during that time, was if anyone remembers back to the FJ trail teams. They only had one modification and that was BB skids. Well turns out that Toyota flew him to their HQ and he designed the skids with the engineers. He also learned a lot about their “why” and had used those principles ever since.

It’s a cost thing. Cheaper steel front diffs, no engine oil cooler, no electric aux fan means you have to pull cooling veins in the front of Prado 120/150 framed vehicles. To protect the best, Toyota doesn’t like cooling vents down low, but then you need the features and cost of what a 200 gets to safely seal up the bottom. What Bud found with his thermal imager was the heat just rises and passes between the frame and the body. Radiant heat from the cats just doesn’t displace much reguardless of what you do, and the heat that comes of components is not significant as what comes out the tailpipe.

So that was some of the background of the heat reasons. You should see how he distributes the impact load... but his focus was material science and failure analysis. This is the guy who designed our military’s in flight refueling setup, the cockpit of the F15 and the CH-47. He spent over 30 years in the military industrial complex and was a certifiyer for safety systems in the auto racing world for fun when he started BB.

I think you get something really special when you have someone with that level of a background and combine them with a hard core wheeler. It’s the science and the art that blends so well to make great products.

 

[Moby]

^^ This is seriously impressive, thank you! Although the field is different I know first hand how hard and costly it is to do this level of testing. Just made the decision to go with your aluminum stage 4 skids

 

[Markuson]

[ = pretty good last night. Sat and tapped this out, and tried really hard to edit out screwups...then forgot to hit send. ]

First, I gotta say that both Slee and BB make great, quality stuff...and I have been VERY happy with my Slee products...and also VERY happy with my BB products. Like “super* happy, actually. And...both Slee & BB have shown that they continue to test & tweak designs if needed & and it’s been my privilege as an early adopter of products by both to help push the limits. If a limit was found with a product by either in early versions—they were then fully remedied by both shops...and the evolution led to even better stuff. So kudos to both Slee and BudBuilt.

So from the perspective of positive experience with both...here is my 1.2 cents (if anyone is reading along) from a guy who has beaten on my skids really hard:

I have experienced no heat issues with my BB skids, despite the fact they are the heaviest, thickest version metal BB makes. These have been severely pushed on my heavy, hard-run truck—including long days of low-speed (low air flow), technical wheeling in summer heat...all day long...without a cool-off period anywhere. It includes thick, cookie-dough mud, rock bashes, and massive hits where they did their job.

Speculation is all I have ever heard being applied to the idea of heat in this example...and as far as I know, the results have never risen beyond that. No one, to my knowledge, has reported any actual issues. -If someone has testing data or measurements contradicting BB’s tests (or contradicting my own positive experience), please chime in...but I have neither seen, heard nor experienced any such thing.

I get the speculative concern...as I tend to try very hard to look ahead to anticipate problems as I’ve carefully considered armor and other changes to my truck.

The lack of negative evidence pitted against positive experience means the “balance scale” in my head feels pretty clear. We can do the “what-ifs” thing all day...but what matters to me is testing, real-world hard-wheeling results & looking for contrasting results.

When the question was originally raised...BB responded with additional, direct testing. With my own skids...I put them through my own heavy wringer and...I have been very very happy.

Should maybe add...
-There ARE some offerings out there from elsewhere that I would not speak so nicely of for other reasons... But like Thumper said in 1942...”If ya can’t say something nice...”


Good news to me is... It’s really easy (and appropriate) to say “nice” things about both Slee and BudBuilt. I plan to continue beating on products from both shops again soon at Cruise Moab.

M

 

[use2bn83]

“The 200 skid system was designed to strike a balance between big hits, weight, and trapping heat under the truck.

We’re super lucky to have such high quality options in our small market. We’ve designed a skid system that we feel satisfy’s most 200 owners needs.

I’ve personally and intentionally set them down on rocks, buried them in nasty gooey mud, stuck them in snow, measured operating temps in 10 locations simultaneously (and compared to factory temps) and tested the amount of pressure it takes to deform them in their most vulnerable areas. Throughout the design iterations, we’ve beefed up the areas most likely to take a hard strike and lightened areas that are far less likely. We played with different materials and geometry.

Take home point - Wether you choose bud built or Slee skids you’re getting high quality and well thought out system. If the above sounds like it meets your needs, we’d love to include a set with your sliders ”

Above is from my original post.

We’re still actually testing around heat when we have the chance, out of curiosity. One area we were concerned with was around the trans. The stock setup in that area is wide open to airflow.

Our goal with temp testing was to make sure that there were no substantial heat differences in the areas we measured from stock (we also used ARB skids as a “control” if you will). So we aren’t trying to cool the truck, we’re just verifying that we aren’t causing any extra heat build up, and the trans area was the main focus.

So the louvers, they do a couple of things. Venting is one.

1. In testing we saw that without them the ambient temp surrounding the trans pan (while moving) went up about 30degF avg. With them, we ended up about 10deg cooler avg from stock on our test runs. (This was not a fluid temp measurement, just ambient air in 2 places)

2. They allow dirt and crud and water to flow out (and in). They are open enough to get them cleaned out (for the most part) without removing them. If you sink your truck to the doors in a mud pit, probably best to remove them for cleanup.

3. They add a small amount of rigidity.

Again, we were not looking to split hairs, just making sure we didn’t accidentally induce a heat issue.


We most definitely struck a compromise between, strength, weight, and overall safety/protection and based on our testing we feel they are adequate for 90% of 200 owners.

We’re a full service shop, and get to see how good/bad these trucks are treated. Sometimes I’m down Right surprised (impressed) they still drive straight lol.

 

[Markuson]

(This was not a fluid temp measurement, just ambient air in 2 places)

Thanks for info.

Did you compare the actual fluid temps? What did they show?

 

[use2bn83]

Thanks for info.

Did you compare the actual fluid temps? What did they show?

No we didn't.

 

[kcjaz]

Wow. The responses to my question are an OP's dream. Tons of good, relevant information actually related to my question. That's pretty much been my experience with all questions I have posted here. It clear to me that both products are substantially engineered by design and the design vetted by testing. The fact that both BB and Slee thought about the potential of heat build up and actually tested to make sure their designs wouldn't create a problem is awesome. @Markuson answered my question most directly from a user point of view. The big thing I wanted to know was has anyone had a real problem such as overheating the transmission or transfer in the field. The data being collected by both Slee and BB is interesting too. As @Markuson said, getting actual fluid temps would be interesting too.

Thanks all and thanks to BB and Slee for building things right. I think I know which way I'm going to go and the real good news is that I really can't make a mistake here.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

getting actual fluid temps would be interesting too.

From the gauge I was using during all that, it was my normal 130-160. The slower the wheeling, the cooler the tranny runs. Low range is basically idling around. At the end of the day, we have a tranny cooler with an auxiliary tranny cooler and an electric fan and clutch fan. I mean damn... awesome. But if we want to talk about overheating, we need to start talking about all the aux lighting that blocks our grills where all those coolers do their job.

Skids are irrelevant to the tranny, the absolute biggest tranny heat building situation is running down the highway with the torque converter unlocked. This happens all the time to lifted trucks that are on stock gearing.

Toyota programs the shifts points to unlock the T/C when seeing a little bit of throttle to make it up small hills. It’s a great solution for a stock truck as down shifting wastes more fuel, and hills are generally for short amounts of time. The problem is that the ECU doesn’t know you put bigger tires on your 200 and lifted it making more air get under it and causing more drag. So the T/C unlocks to save fuel, and bumps up the RPMs, thus making more power to not slow down. The problem is that you can run down the highway all day with the T/C unlocked, because it thinks your big tires and lift is really just the small hill. I can see temps raise to 220 if I purposely try to. Then when the T/C locks up, it’s amazing how fast it can cool back down.

The hottest I’ve ever seen my tranny was towing 9,270 lbs of rock buggy up this stupid gravel side of a mountain at 45 mph (buggy broke its rear 5 ton axle a winter ago, not mine). It was 30°F outside, I didn’t have the transmission or transfer case skids on becuase I was planning on exchanging fluids that weekend and I was getting the newer T-Case skid. (Front skid is currently at version 5, Engine is at version 8, trans is at version 3, T case is at version 6, and fuel is at version 2 (kinda nailed that one)

So anyway, all that weight, gravel, 2nd gear, 4.88 diffs, 5,000 RPMs. Whoo! Let her eat boys! I hit 220 and was like “no.” Slowed down to 35 and the tranny came down to 190 really quick, and held there till I was back on black top. Then dropped off to 160-170 is see while towing.

For non-yahoo shenanigans, the best way to have a cooler running tranny is have lower gears that keep the T/C locked even when climbing hills in the highway or to just be mindful of what your programming wants to do.

If you ever notice your RPMs jump up about 150, that’s not a down shift. That the Torque Converter unlocking. It’s fine for a minute or two. Just don’t hold it there for 20 miles.

Sorry to switch subjects, I have a special place in my heart for gearing and high RPMs, I can get going.

 

[PhillipPinot]

This is the greatest thread in the universe.