Book "Guide to Arizona Backroads and 4-wheel drive Trails" ?

[re_guderian]

Has anyone used this book before? I borrowed my neighbors, and was checking some of the mileage and GPS points for Walnut Canyon (near the end of Battleaxe road by 177) using USAPhotomaps on the 7.5 minute USGS maps. I'm finding some of the mileages and coordinates a little off, and wondering if it's the software or the mileages in the book. Anyone have any experience as to the accuracy of the trail descriptions?

 

[GeoRoss]

Has anyone used this book before? I borrowed my neighbors, and was checking some of the mileage and GPS points for Walnut Canyon (near the end of Battleaxe road by 177) using USAPhotomaps on the 7.5 minute USGS maps. I'm finding some of the mileages and coordinates a little off, and wondering if it's the software or the mileages in the book. Anyone have any experience as to the accuracy of the trail descriptions?

If the coordinates are in UTM, it could be a projection issue from different datums (NAD27 vs NAD83).

Ross

 

[Tools R Us]

I get lost with it all the time, but then again I am lost most of the time, so not much help!

The main problem I have with it is the pages falling out, not good for a $20 book that's made to be hauled around in a truck! That and most of the "trails" in it are dirt roads!

 

[re_guderian]

If the coordinates are in UTM, it could be a projection issue from different datums (NAD27 vs NAD83).

Ross

It's got both lat/lon and UTM (NAD27 in the book). But even the mileage from the highway to the first waypoint is ~30% off according to the map software (and the coordinate is at the correct intersection on the topo, I think). So that made me wonder about the rest of the directions. Suposedly taken after selective availability was turned off, so should be good coordinates. I haven't been out that way, but I'm assuming there's a ton of roads not shown on the map...

 

[-Spike-]

Are you basing mileage on your odometer? Do you have stock size tires?

-Spike

 

[GeoRoss]

You have to be careful when looking at milage posted in a book and also off of software.

Spike brings up a good point on vehicle based milage, how do you know the author didn't have a systematic error in his odometer (ie tire size)?

Consumer grade software is great at straight distances, but starts to fall down following roads and trails as those often have details not found on the map or the actual route changes after the map is published.

If the intersection coordinates are accurate, go with those as they are more useful anyway. If you have the ability to bring a computer in the truck, that is the way to go. Either way, I wouldn't sweat it too much and would use the longest distances to estimate fuel consumption. In my line of work I don't usually have someone else's milages so I go from digitized maps with no terrible mistakes yet . I plan my routes using what ever assets I have (topos, aerials, etc) and lay in waypoints at the necessary intersections. I then estimate milage, mostly for fuel.



Ross

ps, I need to talk to you over a soda with scratch paper to do full justice to your genetics questions. It would take me several hours to do it in a post, and even then it would be incomplete.

 

[DSRTRDR]

We use the book all the time and found coordinates generally correct. No substitute for a Topo map, though.

PS: anyone have genetics questions, feel free to PM your phone number.

 

[-Spike-]

Genetics? Am I missing something?

-Spike (Wouldn't be the first time)

 

[GeoRoss]

Genetics? Am I missing something?

-Spike (Wouldn't be the first time)

You didn't miss anything, Rob and I were discussing the latest National Geographic on human origins and I was too lazy to pm him, sorry for the hijak.

Ross

 

[DSRTRDR]

Just annother comment on the book (aka unbound leaflet collection after a few uses): while the maps are usually accurate enough, some descriptions on 'wheeling practices are indeed questionable. The recommendation to hook two snatch straps together with a clevis or shackle in order to extend the strap length is outright dangerous - people have gotten seriously hurt by doing this: if (when) one of those two straps fails, the stored energy in both straps will turn the clevis or shackle into a fast moving heavy caliber projectile headed towards the vehicle where the remaining strap is still attached. The preferred (but arguably tedious) method is to loop the straps. Anyways, just a heads up on some stuff in the book...

 

[Tools R Us]

Good points!

The recommendation to hook two snatch straps together with a clevis or shackle in order to extend the strap length is outright dangerous - people have gotten seriously KILLED by doing this:

I fixed it for you!

The preferred (but arguably tedious) method is to loop the straps.

If you put a rolledup towel, rag, big stick, whatever between the loops it makes separating them much easier after the pull.

 

[re_guderian]

You have to be careful when looking at milage posted in a book and also off of software.

Spike brings up a good point on vehicle based milage, how do you know the author didn't have a systematic error in his odometer (ie tire size)?

Consumer grade software is great at straight distances, but starts to fall down following roads and trails as those often have details not found on the map or the actual route changes after the map is published.

If the intersection coordinates are accurate, go with those as they are more useful anyway. If you have the ability to bring a computer in the truck, that is the way to go. Either way, I wouldn't sweat it too much and would use the longest distances to estimate fuel consumption. In my line of work I don't usually have someone else's milages so I go from digitized maps with no terrible mistakes yet . I plan my routes using what ever assets I have (topos, aerials, etc) and lay in waypoints at the necessary intersections. I then estimate milage, mostly for fuel.

I'll be heading out there Friday afternoon and Saturday with the Scouts on a camping trip (will miss the Sonic meet ). I'll take actual GPS measurements with my laptop when I go to verify. I was just double-checking the route plan v the 7.5 min USGS map using USAPhotomaps, https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=45760, so not sure if the error is in the author's mileage or the sw calculation (but just looking at the map, it looks like the book mileage is off) So I'll post up the results next week, I guess.

Just annother comment on the book (aka unbound leaflet collection after a few uses): while the maps are usually accurate enough, some descriptions on 'wheeling practices are indeed questionable.

Point well taken. I'm usually insanely careful when it comes to stuff like that.

 

[RHINO]

i find it to be a pretty good book and dont have any probs with any of the directions, but you have to remember i am old school and dont input the coordinants into the rigs on board computer and then go into cryogenic sleep for the trip

 

[GeoRoss]

i find it to be a pretty good book and dont have any probs with any of the directions, but you have to remember i am old school and dont input the coordinants into the rigs on board computer and then go into cryogenic sleep for the trip

Luddite

 

[Relix]

i find it to be a pretty good book and dont have any probs with any of the directions, but you have to remember i am old school and dont input the coordinants into the rigs on board computer and then go into cryogenic sleep for the trip

LOL I know what you mean, I own a GPS, use it once! I imput the coordinats to Roosevelt lake in it and haven't been able to figure out how to remove that as my destination so I'm always off coarse!

 

[RHINO]

Luddite

hey man !?!?! i dont destroy machinery i just dont use it to its full potential, relegating my GPS to a fancy altimiter, compass and odometer. besides i was an orienteering fool in another life so the map and compass works pretty darn good for me.

still not convinced?? i am in the middle of doing fuel injection for the pig right now. see? i'm down with the tech.

 

[GeoRoss]

hey man !?!?! i dont destroy machinery i just dont use it to its full potential, relegating my GPS to a fancy altimiter, compass and odometer. besides i was an orienteering fool in another life so the map and compass works pretty darn good for me.

still not convinced?? i am in the middle of doing fuel injection for the pig right now. see? i'm down with the tech.

Sorry dude, just poking fun at you. Personally, on foot I use map and compass and work from both topo and aerial photos to a degree and detail most folks don't. I only use the GPS for key contact and sample locations. However, I will admit that my on road navigation has been greatly improved by using a GPS and PC in the vehicle. If I need to get to X, I can get there very easy and fast, especially in areas with an endless number of side roads/trails/etc. Not for everyone, but works very well for me where time is premium and I can't afford to wander around.


You don't have to destroy machinery to be a Luddite, from http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary
Lud·dite (plural Lud·dites)

noun
Definitions:

1. opponent of new technology: an opponent of technological or industrial change

2. 19C protester against technology: a worker who was involved in protests in the United Kingdom in the 1810s against new factory methods of production and who favored traditional methods of work

[Early 19th century. Perhaps after Ned Ludd, 18th century farm worker in Leicestershire, England, who destroyed machinery]

Lud·dism n
Lud·dite adj

If the shoe fits ...

Ross

 

[RHINO]

well since you used luddite, i went right for the destroyer of machinery and implementation.

i know you were pokin fun, no one can poke and be poked better than me awww crap, i went and made a gay'ish statement again.