BJ40 Starter problems

[79fj40moneypit]

Albert,If you are looking for a starter just pm me .Do not send it to cruiser parts $350.00 for a rebuilt plus $100.00 core Also I have located a BRAND NEW OEM STARTER FOR $400.00 PLUS SHIP It only goes to show if you search you find.

 

[albert rodrigues]

New Starter Installed

It's been a while since my last post but I finally got around to installing the new starter in the BJ. See attached picture. It is in and I'm still SOL. I can hear the starter engage the flywheel with a 'clank' but nothing happens beyond that.

Can the flywheel be in the wrong position relative to the starter gears? Is there a way to manually turn the engine a little? What would be the next logical step to trouble shoot this problem?

Albert

 

[lostmarbles]

.....I can hear the starter engage the flywheel with a 'clank' but nothing happens beyond that.......

..Can the flywheel be in the wrong position relative to the starter gears? ....Albert

Hi Albert. Yes - in answer to this last question.

There appear to be many traps involved in sourcing "donor parts" from other vehicles.

From what I see a 28100-56111 starter fits a BJ60 manufactured anywhere from August 1980 to November 1984.

Who said that starter would fit your BJ40?

I believe it is wrong to assume that starter motors (and many other things) will automatically be interchangeable simply because "they are both off a B/3B engine of similar vintage".

I suspect the bellhousing (and maybe flywheel ring-gear) are quite different for a BJ60 compared to a "BJ40/BJ42".

In other words, a "late-model B-engined BJ40" has a lot of similarities with a "3B-engined BJ42" but I'd be very wary of expecting the same similarities with a "3B-engined BJ60". (Even the glow plug system is different.)

But all is not lost - Have you read the threads about performing "nose-transplants" on starter motors?

That remanufactured starter is the correct power-rating (2.5kW) so you may now be able to transplant your old nose onto it so that you end up with a starter that has a new/reconditioned motor-and-solenoid and that will work on your engine?

(My guess is that at the moment your solenoid is "pulling in" but the wrong nose is preventing the gears from meshing - and at the same time - preventing the solenoid from "completing its travel" to close those big contacts that supply power to the startermotor.

Cheers
Tom

 

[albert rodrigues]

Tom
I think I will remove the starter again and try to take a look at the flywheel. The replacement starter however is an exact match to my old one sitting on the floor of my garage. There are 11 teeth on both starters in the same configuration. The vehicle was running and starting well before I had alternator problems and then onto the starter problems. The sound the starter is making is identical to the old one before it started to smoke.

This is an import from central america and I guess anything goes but I think the problems are more related to my lack of know-how and experience with this vehicle.

Any other thoughts?

 

[lostmarbles]

...The replacement starter however is an exact match to my old one sitting on the floor of my garage. ....

Are you sure Albert?

It may have the same number of teeth on the drive cog but are all other dimensions identical? (It may be hard to tell without taking measurements.)

If a BJ60 gear-reduction starter was completely interchangeable with the gear-reduction starter used on a BJ40 or BJ42 then I think I would have heard about it before now! (But, as always, I could be wrong in saying such things as this.)

I gather from reading other people's experiences that the "startermotor nose" on a BJ40/BJ42 is fairly unique. ---So much so in fact - that people who need new starters seem to be forced to re-use their original "noses".

Cheers
Tom

PS. Here's a link to a thread on performing "nose-transplants":

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/248398-3b-starter-compatibility.html

 

[albert rodrigues]

I'll drop it and re-check. I guess I'm also wondering if the previous owner in central america used a newer starter as a quick fix.

Do you know what the dimensions should be for the gear on the nose of the starter? If both of my starters have the same dimensions, I would know if the old unit is also the wrong unit.

How did you make out with the traffic court?

 

[lostmarbles]

I'll drop it and re-check. I guess I'm also wondering if the previous owner in central america used a newer starter as a quick fix....

I can't see such a fix as being either "quick" or "cheap" because we would all be doing the same thing if that were so. (Hence I still think you are likely to have an original starter-nose that is the same as mine.) - But in saying this, I am of course assuming that the rest of your vehicle is "BJ40/BJ42".

.....Do you know what the dimensions should be for the gear on the nose of the starter? ...

Sorry. No I don't. But Gizmo's photos in that link above show what our "noses" should look like. And using "callipers", I think you should be able to compare the dimensions of your original nose with those of your remanufactured one.

If both of my starters have the same dimensions, I would know if the old unit is also the wrong unit....

Yes. And if you find they've managed to fit a BJ60 starter to your BJ40, then perhaps you have other BJ60 parts there like a BJ60 bellhousing?????

...How did you make out with the traffic court?

I was told that if I pleaded guilty, I would be "discharged without conviction". But instead I "stuffed up their cosy system" by pleading "not guilty" and got the enjoyment of "crossexamining the two officers in the witness stand" and having a big rant from the stand myself. (But of course the audience was just made up of "other police officers" and "low-life crims" (like myself) so exposing their behaviour only caused the police embarrassment in front of the 2 "Justices of the Peace"/magistrates.

So inevitably I was convicted and fined. (How could the court take the side of a "bus driver" against "2 sworn officers"?) But the minimal fine ($150) shows IMO that the Justices weren't impressed by the police action. And I'm told the officers approached their union (alleging harrassment) in response to their superiors making them file multiple reports on the incident (prior to going to Court).

(I laid an official complaint with the "NZ Police Complaints Authority".)

It was "all good fun" really because I love "experiencing real life".

Oh - I lost my lawyer the night before I was due in Court too. My employer (the bus company) was going to pay his bill - but only if I was "discharged without conviction". Hence he pressured me to plead guilty whereupon a "no-conviction outcome" would be pre-arranged with the court/police. However I refused to play ball (on principle) and was prepared to pay his bill myself. - But he made that impossible for me by refusing to put a cap on how much I would be liable to pay and refusing to heed my requests (such as my request NOT to have 2 witnesses/bus-passengers sacrifice a day's pay each in order to testify in my support).

I've got to be careful what I say here because I guess I could end up being charged with "contempt of court" if I were to be too open. (Let's just say that "the justice system" has many embedded safeguards to ensure it survives.)

PS. - I am really being genuine when I say I enjoyed this experience. And I am not naiive enough to pretend that I could design a better "system of justice". What really get's to me is when people express "blind-confidence" in the police or justice-system. It should be obvious to everyone that you have good/bad and competent/incompetent people in EVERY profession. While people (in general) seem to readily accept this with "motor mechanics" (for example), they are much less likely to do so with doctors, police officers, magistrates, and the like. But so long as systems are in place to try to ensure things work the correct way for most of the time then I'm happy. And here in NZ is as good as anywhere for that I reckon. (I was happy with the way the situation was handled by the Police Complaints Authority and I am confident they will be keeping a close eye on one of those officers. Telling a non-truth under oath in Court may be undetectable/unclear to a JP/magistrate but doing the same to a superior officer who is already in possession of lots of time-sequenced-evidence can be devastating to one's career path.)

Sh#t. See what what you've done Albert. - I was trying to avoid blerting out all this here. But thanks anyway - I now feel like I've had a "massive and very satisfying bowel movement".

 

[albert rodrigues]

thanks for the info and link and the insight into your court system. Seems like people are the same wherever you go...especially when they are in a position to take advantage of others.

I feel like the wind has left my sail with this starting problem. Winter and my cold garage floor has not helped either. If I get motivated tomorrow I'll remove the starter and try to take some basic measurements with the tools I have. I definitly need to purchase a metric caliper.

 

[Joe Egolf]

In the 3rd post -"The positive cable from the battery to the starter gets very warm/hot during the process."??? Could the battery cable be the problem?? ie internal corrosion /resistance ,creates heat and prevents power to turn the engine??

 

[lostmarbles]

In the 3rd post -"The positive cable from the battery to the starter gets very warm/hot during the process."??? Could the battery cable be the problem?? ie internal corrosion /resistance ,creates heat and prevents power to turn the engine??

Good idea Joe.

I'm beginning to doubt my belief that that remanufactured starter is wrong now too. But the EPC definitely suggests a BJ40 never came with a 28100-56111 starter. Here's the page that shows our BJ40/BJ42 starter highlighted in blue:


And here is the page that shows a 28100-56111 belongs to a BJ60:


Cheers
Tom

PS. And here's a third EPC image that shows a 1979 BJ40 can even have a different model 2.5kW gear-reduction starter to the one fitted to Joe's BJ42 and my BJ40:



Note: - I don't know what the EPC means by "L/E.D.I.C" here. Does anybody know?

PPS. Hey. The more I study this - the more confused I get. I now see (in the above EPC images) that a 28100-56091 "12Volt 2.5kW gear-reduction starter" is indeed used in both a B-engined BJ40 and a 3B-engined BJ60. But here the BJ60 is "without EDIC" and the BJ40 is L/EDIC which may mean "less EDIC" (another way of saying "without EDIC"). Which makes me wonder if your BJ40 has EDIC or not Albert? (All this time I've been assuming your's is equipped with EDIC because the alternative version was never sold new in this part of the world where I live.)

PPPPPPS. This still isn't evidence that a 28100-56111 will fit a B-engined BJ40 - However it does destroy my earlier belief that the same starter won't ever fit both a BJ40 and a BJ60.


PPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSS. I still don't understand why having EDIC requires a different starter motor either. (Anyone able to enlighten me on this?)

Too much thinkin for one day - I think I'll call it quits for the day before I discover something else to further confuse me.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Thanks guys. My BJ40 does not have EDIC. The battery cable is new as well. I will still drop the starter and take a look at the flywheel if I can. Maybe there is wear or damage in this exact location where I am trying to turn it???

 

[lostmarbles]

....... My BJ40 does not have EDIC......

That's interesting!

So I guess you simply have an "overinjection magnet" to pull your injector-pump-lever into the "overinject" position for starting and a manual-pull cable to pull the lever into the stop position when you want to kill your engine?

I'm intrigued because I have never studied such a system (ex-factory Toyota-installed-system - that is).

I'm guessing your starter motor is wired like this diagram taken from my FSM:



This is the only starter-wiring-diagram in my FSM and it appears to relate to a "without EDIC BJ40". So I am at a loss to know exactly how mine is wired and why Toyota appear to use a different starter for "with EDIC" and "without EDIC" models. I have found out that the lower switch in my glowplug relay is actually missing and that there is nothing at all connected to terminal "S" from inside the glowplug relay box. Which makes me wonder if you have what mine is missing inside there?

It seems like "with EDIC" cruisers (like mine) got the modified (internal parts missing etc) glow plug relays? Anyway, I think this is what the above diagram would look like for my cruiser (but I'm NOT 100% sure):





PS. Much of the work (such as finding out what is inside my glowplug relay) was done by others here on MUD. (Notably Amaurer.)
I have found the FSM wiring diagrams to be highly innaccurate. So much so, that I doubt that anyone here on MUD has a vehicle that's wired up exactly as depicted in any of those "FSM whole vehicle wiring diagrams". So it is interesting (for me) to try and find out "true, as-built circuitry". Also, what happens inside "black boxes" (like "start relays" and "glowplug relays") is often left unexplained in the FSM. - so I like to find out exactly what's happening inside them.

 

[albert rodrigues]

I spoke with the person who sold me the new starter and they suggested I could have a bad battery. I decided to test the battery and give it another charge. His explaination seemed likely to me as my troubles started with a bad alternator. When I arrived at home I used my multimeter to test the voltage at the battery...it read above 12v. I placed a charger on the battery and let it sit for a while. After a few hours, the charger indicated a complete charge and I decided to have someone help turn the key while I placed my hand on the starter thinking I would be able to clearly tell what the starter was doing. When the key is turned the starter relay makes a loud clicking sound followed by a small 'clack' by the starter. The vibration and sound from the starter while I had my hand on it was not as loud as it seemed from inside the vehicle. The vibration was much less than I expected, almost no vibration present. The sound from the relay inside the passenger footwell seems greater??? The starter does not do anything after the 'clack'...meaning it does not seem like it is trying to turn the flywheel as if my battery were just in need of a charge. I still think the starter gear is touching the flywheel but I am not as sure as before now that I was able to get to hear the problem from the outside the vehicle.
The wire leading to the starter did not even get warm like before I replaced the starter. The wires are the same as before and are new. I have two grounds, one to the engine and one to the body large gauge wires.
Could I have fried the relay thus causing less power getting to the starter? Could I have a situation similar to blowing a fuse on one leg of a 3-phase circuit? Could the relay be blown but still convey some power to the starter? I'm clueless at this point.

 

[lostmarbles]

.....The starter does not do anything after the 'clack'...meaning it does not seem like it is trying to turn the flywheel.......

Which makes me still think that your remanufactured starter may not be suitable (without getting a nose-transplant).

Consider my theory that your solenoid coil (both "pull-in" and "holding" components) on this new starter are getting energised and so it tries to throw out the drive cog (to mesh it with the ring-gear) - But the teeth are unable to mesh for some reason (such as crankshaft and drive-cog shaft "centreline-separation" being too small making the teeth hit instead of meshing). In this scenario you would get a "clack" when the teeth hit each other. And then you'd get silence because the "throw-out mechanism" has been prevented from completing its movement and this in turn would prevent the starter solenoid's contacts from closing to supply the "BIG JUICE" to your starter motor.

(Note: - As well as "throwing out the drive cog to mesh with your ring-gear", that solenoid acts as a "relay" to complete the circuit through your starter motor windings ---- but only once it has "pulled in fully".)

So if you have eliminated the "flat battery theory" - then I still think you could have a problem with the nose on that remanufactured starter having "unsuitable dimensions/characteristics.

The wire leading to the starter did not even get warm like before I replaced the starter. ......

And this would support my theory that those big solenoid contacts are not closing so there is no "high current flow" occuring. (When those contacts close properly they draw something like 180 amps off your battery!!!!. On the other hand, the solenoid by itself would be lucky to draw 5 amps I would imagine.)

Beware: - If I'm right and your solenoid isn't closing properly, the "pull-in coil" (refer to the wiring diagrams in my previous post to see this) will remain energised. So do not leave the key in the "start" position for more than a few seconds with your starter behaving the way it is. (Anything more than 5 seconds could cause that coil to burn out according to warnings in my FSM.)

Note - when the solenoid "pulls in fully" - the solenoid's pull-in coil gets automatically de-energised and the "holding coil" is able to keep the solenoid pulled-in by tself.

...Could I have fried the relay thus causing less power getting to the starter? .........

The current is fed to your starter motor via a BIG cable from your battery's positive terminal. The only relay that "switches" this current is the "big solenoid relay" which is positioned on your "remanufactured starter" so it should be in top condition. (I can't see how you could have damaged it.)

Hope this ramble helps Albert.

Cheers - Tom

 

[albert rodrigues]

thanks again Tom. It all sounds sensible to me. I will drop the starter and compare the gear on the end with the old.

 

[Ron R]

Reading this just out of interest and having no knowledge at all about 40 and 60 series starter interchangablity there is one thing that I'm wondering about.
Is it possible that there is something wrong in the starter-circuit, ignition-key part.
What I want to say is, can it be that way that the starter solenoid has lack of 'juice' because it doesn't get enough current?
That is easily checked by feeding the solenoid directly from the battery + (plus) post, thus avoiding the 'ignition-key-routing'.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Is it possible to do that without doing damage to the new starter? Is there another way to test the starting system using a multimeter or other method?

I will likely follow Tom's advice and re-check the front of the starter more carefully, but even after the new starter was installed the sounds the vehicle is making are no different than before the starter began smoking....And even though I am now an IH8MUD junior I have only been successful at screwing up a running BJ40 that had a few fuel leaks that led to me needing a new battery and now a new starter. I also suspect the only other problem the vehicle had was a bad alternator that has new brushes but has not really been tested by running the vehicle.

 

[Ron R]

It's a matter of disconnecting the small wire that connects to the solenoid (not really necessary but then this wire cannot influence what you are doing) and use a firm piece of electrical (insulated ) wire and connect one end to the post you disconnected the small wire from.
Then touch the + pole of the battery with the other end - hold it with pliers, it will spark!!! - and the starter should engage. That is, if the 'normal' starter circuit, activated by the ignitionkey is faulty.
This cannot do any harm because all you do is exclude the ignition key circuit from the procedure needed to power the starter.
Make sure the tranny is not engaged, so that should the starter really engage, nothing can happen if the engine is turned.

If you want to test the functionality of the starter, you need dedicated equipment.
Even if you just want to check or the starter will rotate when energized be carefull!!
Put the starter in a vise or something before testing it off the engine, because the torque (when it starts to rotate ) is so high, you won't be able to hold it by hand.

 

[lostmarbles]

I've just being doing a bit of research.
Part of this was looking at the www.dixie-electric.com site. (Man you people are lucky with suppliers in the States!!!!)

There I found the following starters (and NO more) listed for our cruisers:
1985 3.4L - 209 (3B) BJ60,BJ70 12V/2.5kW - Dixie P/N S8338
1984-81 3.4L - 209 (3B) BJ60 12V/2.5kW - Dixie P/N S8113
1980-79 3.0L - 180 (B) BJ40 24V/4.5kW - Dixie P/N S8066
1987-86 3.4L - 209 (3B) BJ70 24V/4.5kW - Dixie P/N S8612

So the only B engine starter they sell is 24Volt. (No good for you Albert)

But what is interesting to me is that Dixie have two different 12V/2.5kW starters listed for 3B-powered BJ60s. Perhaps this suggests they have different "nose requirements" even within the BJ60 series? (Although it could also be due to the different starter requirements of "with EDIC" and "without EDIC" cruisers that I don't yet understand.)

And if that 24V/4.5kW B-engine starter has the correct nose for your cruiser, then I can't see any reason why they couldn't sell you a 12v/2.5kW starter with that same nose.

 

[albert rodrigues]

Thanks again Tom. Before ordering the starter I received I had sent lots of pictures to Steve at EBI cruiser parts. I also did a visual check prior to the install and there was nothing that even looked a little different. Even the casting of the housings were visually identical. The front gear seemed to 'match'; 11 teeth on both the old and new. As you say however, I did not measure anything, just by eye.

What do you think about 'jumping' the solenoid as suggested above? I do not want to do any damage but it sounds like a quick way to test my starting system.