Best goes first or goes last?

[e9999]

(Been wondering about this for a while. In fact long enough that I hope I didn't already post that. But then again, one of the pleasures of getting old, you can repeat yourself without it bothering you...
Search you say? Nah, I'm sure that those who said something about this already are dying to say it again... )



Anyway, say you have a situation where one truck / driver is much more capable than the others in a group.

What do you think are the pros and cons of putting the better truck in the front vs in the back of the group?

Some are obvious maybe

Best in front:
- can gauge terrain better for problems
- can show better lines to others
- can get the group over obstacle that might have stopped others, without having to walk up etc continuously.
- could pull somebody out behind you with a strap
but
- could have somebody stuck behind when you can't turn around for winch use. (Seriously, how many trucks have rear winches...?)
- could have somebody stuck behind when you need to go back and now can't
- need to keep your speed in check
- what you can get through could damage somebody else's truck

etc etc

Now, best in back:
- if somebody gets stuck up front, you can get them out with your front winch (this one I think is critical)
- likely that if a weaker truck can get through, everybody can without too much trouble, so self-limiting in a way
but
- somebody will get stuck up front before too long

etc etc


so, what say you? At the end of the day, front or back? Why?

 

[Mark W]

If you are tackling serious trails, then do so with rigs that are compare in capability and leave the tag-alongs behind. Take each situation as it happens and don't try to predict the possibilities to that degree from the keyboard.

If you are not tackling serious trails then it matters even less.


Mark...


Mark...

 

[e9999]

If you are tackling serious trails, then do so with rigs that are compare in capability and leave the tag-alongs behind. Take each situation as it happens and don't try to predict the possibilities to that degree from the keyboard.

If you are not tackling serious trails then it matters even less.


Mark...


Mark...

leave the tag alongs behind eh...?

interesting way to involve new folks in the sport or help somebody learn new skills...

 

[fireball]

I think the most skilled driver should go first. They should be able to get through and come back and help spot if needed, and also access all the conditions and make sure the entire group can make it through.

Keep in mind, I'm just a tag-along

 

[cruiserpilot]

I would suggest that in a mixed group keep it tight, and no unilateral decisions. If you are concerned about individuals getting stuck, then as a group each obstacle should be tackled accordingly. I've been on both sides of this one. Probably the hardest problem here is not peer pushing a rookie into a hole/damaging situation beyond capabilities.

 

[Mark W]

As I said; "when tackling serious trails"'.

Not every rig is suitable for the tougher trails. Pretty simple concept.

It has nothing to do with people, new or not.


But I'm kinda puzzled as to who assigned me to teach or play welcome wagon when I head out for my own trail time.

Teaching the kids, evolving web wheelers and other new guys how to do things and letting thern see what their rigs can do and deciding how much they want to build then up is what family friendly runs are for.

Surely it's not that hard to understand.




There is no one answer as to how to arrange a group of vehicles of varying capabilities that will apply to every trail under every condition.

Generally when I take a group out I put one of my more experienced guys with one of the more capable rigs up front, I take the tail so I can keep on eye on everyone and we just keep it all between us. No real overall plan as to which rig is where in the mix been front and back in most cases. Sometimes I lead and task a capable person and rig for tail.

After a day or two on the trail vehicle and driver capabilities may have been demonstrated such that things change.

Sometimes the specific order of vehicles is specified for a section of trail depending on just what the trail is like and just what the rigs and drivers are like.

No need for an overall designated order of travel and if it is tough enough to matter it will be changing now and then anyway.

Unless you have tag-along rigs that you know at the start you are gonna be dragging through everything.


When we wind up with a damaged or otherwise performance impaired rig due to something that had happened in the trail then his place in the group is given specific thought. But it still is likely to change based on just what the particular stretch of trail or obstacle is like.



It always changes and you have to figure it out on the go. Its not rocket science. But If you can determine it in advance, then it probably doesn't matter enough to worry about anyway.


Mark...

 

[lowenbrau]

Another thing to consider.

If the terrain has a lot of anchors ( i.e. forested), putting the better winch in back and then running the cable up beside the stuck rig to a snatchblock and back to the stuck rig has been really effective for me. It is a lot easier to position the mobile rig to face the pully and not wind up with the cable all on one side of the drum and the stuck driver can concentrate on driving. The driver who is winching can be out of the rig making sure his cable is doing what it is supposed to.

 

[Mark W]

Another thing to consider.

If the terrain has a lot of anchors ( i.e. forested), putting the better winch in back and then running the cable up beside the stuck rig to a snatchblock and back to the stuck rig has been really effective for me. It is a lot easier to position the mobile rig to face the pully and not wind up with the cable all on one side of the drum and the stuck driver can concentrate on driving. The driver who is winching can be out of the rig making sure his cable is doing what it is supposed to.

I like this approach to. Easy to position for the pull, no risk of getting the second rig stuck trying to get around the first and quick to setup.

Mark...

 

[cody c]

Another thing to consider.

If the terrain has a lot of anchors ( i.e. forested), putting the better winch in back and then running the cable up beside the stuck rig to a snatchblock and back to the stuck rig has been really effective for me. It is a lot easier to position the mobile rig to face the pully and not wind up with the cable all on one side of the drum and the stuck driver can concentrate on driving. The driver who is winching can be out of the rig making sure his cable is doing what it is supposed to.

When we do the River shiver every other year which Lowenbrau is usually at, we do trail runs in groups of 3-9 or so rigs, and usually the lead is someone from the club who knows the trails and has a ham/cb radio, also, the back of the pack is usually chosen based on wether or not they have a radio to keep the group from getting split up if someone gets stuck. So it's whoever knows the trail best up front as there is lots of little trails off the main and its easy to get sidetracked. This would apply to other trails, whoever has the most experience on it probably knows how hard the obstacles are, and as long as they can safely lead a group they will likely be best up front. I suppose for trails that are new to all vehicles, it may be the vehicle that will be able to navigate and keep in the right direction or trail the best, wether by themselves or their co pilot and read the difficulty of terrain while their driving.

IMO, this comes down more to the operator then to the rig. ;p

 

[e9999]

Another thing to consider.

If the terrain has a lot of anchors ( i.e. forested), putting the better winch in back and then running the cable up beside the stuck rig to a snatchblock and back to the stuck rig has been really effective for me. It is a lot easier to position the mobile rig to face the pully and not wind up with the cable all on one side of the drum and the stuck driver can concentrate on driving. The driver who is winching can be out of the rig making sure his cable is doing what it is supposed to.

man, it must be nice to have tons of trees all the time wherever you go.

Around some parts out here, if you're lucky you may have a large boulder to anchor off. If you're unlucky it will roll over towards you as soon as you start pulling...


but yes, another good way to go. And another reason to have a long cable or an extension.

 

[cruiserpilot]

Good answers guys, I always learn something here, tucked away in the threads. Invaluable bits of wisdom. I'm just in the process of getting a rear winch working as well as I acquired an extra 150 ft of wire rope from a new 8274 from someone who didn't see the value of keeping when they went to synthetic.

Ironically, I never use a winch as much as I want; but I'm glad I never use a winch as much as I think I might need.

Thx, J

Mark, BTW do you carry anything like a Pull-Pal because there is a distinct lack of trees where your are? Or do you have some other
device that you use?

 

[Mark W]

I have used a pull pal and I have a fabricated unit that is similar. Not real impressed with them overall.

I have been testing another type of anchor that shows a lot of promise so far. Basically a blade or head with a cable attached that you drive deep into the ground with a removable extension and a driver. When the cable is loaded by the winch pull it cants the head so that it does not just pull out via its entry path.

Large one for muddy marshy soil, narrow one for hard rocky soil.

I can add a second cable that attaches differently to remove it after use. But it is also designed and intended to leave the head in place if it is a spot where we anticipate needing it again.

Just carry multiple heads.


We tend to do a lot of two vehicle recoveries over self recoveries when we are not alone. And snatch strap pulls over winch pulls when it is feasible.


Mark...

 

[cruiserpilot]

Do you have a pic of one of those 'heads'? Good idea. I agree with the snatch over winch if able too.

 

[Tapage]

We put good car with radio in front .. another good one at the end of the group, if group if too big ( more than 6 rigs ) we split it and do the same ..

 

[fishEH]

In my opinion driver experience trumps rig capability as far as who leads.

 

[Dazrin]

I have mostly done friend/fun runs with most of us only having our daily drivers. We tend to put the one who cares the most about their paint job go in front. That way they are the ones who choose which trails they are willing to go down.

Other than that, someone with a radio in front and in back and generally an experienced driver front/back.

 

[Jetboy]

When I was a trail guide for a offroad club, the lineup was usually in the order they got to the trail head. As the trails get progressively more difficult we would leave the less capable rigs behind and let those guys either turn around and go home or hop in and ride along with a more capable one. Never really had an issue.

The biggest frustration is when someone leaves a less capable vehicle in the middle of a trail where you can't get around it. That is unacceptable. Otherwise I have no issues with leaving a vehicle behind to pick up on the way back.

 

[80t0ylc]

If you are tackling serious trails, then do so with rigs that are compare in capability and leave the tag-alongs behind. Take each situation as it happens and don't try to predict the possibilities to that degree from the keyboard.

If you are not tackling serious trails then it matters even less.


Mark...


Mark...

Agreed. For groups that run together frequently, they know strengths and shortcomings of each rig or driver and adjust the order accordingly to the trail or section of the trail as it comes up. In my club, on runs we stress good communication. CB or other radio in each rig simplifies this. Surprises are kept to a minimum and handled better and quicker when everyone is on the same page.

 

[subzali]

Best goes first, but you need someone capable in the rear too if getting through is questionable.

I was at the rear on a snowrun, and got stuck once we turned around and were heading back out the way we came. At the time I didn't have a winch and I was only on 31s with a rear locker. And no power steering. Luckily the guy behind me had a winch and we were able to use a tree and a snatch block to pull me forward and get me out. Even after that the ruts had changed due to it being spring snow conditions, and I got hung up multiple times again and had to shovel several times to get all the way back to dry dirt. I was exhausted after doing 7-8 shovelings in a 300 yard distance and that all could have been avoided if the guy who had been behind me had been in front of me on the way out (1st gen 4runner on 38s). Never in my life had I wished more for a springover, 35s, power steering, front and rear lockers and a winch.

 

[Pin_Head]

It depends on how many people you have in a group. For sure, you would want someone that is familiar with the trail to go first, but with a big group, you sometimes have one or two guys with a lot of testosterone that want to go first and take the crazy line. They often break and end up getting towed back to camp by someone in the back. I always take the easy line. I'm done flopping my junk and breaking down if I don't have to. Sometimes they make it and it is really entertaining to watch.