auto or manual?! cant decide (1 Viewer)

[ibinazbass]

Hi there all.

I recently heard of guys breaking the adapters from they're sm465's to the np205's...

first of all, has anyone else had this problem?

i heard that this was because there is no give in the drivetrain because of the direct link to the engine. the guy i was talking to was saying that i should go with an automatic because there is give in the torque converter... what do you guys think?

if i go with an auto i was thinking about the 700r4, and if i go with a manual i'm going with a sm465. any good or bad things that are related to using either of these transmissions?

i would like to go with a np205 tcase, but i don't really know enough about the pros and cons of all the different options. any help, personal advise/opinions, or insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Logan

 

[woody]

I ran a Toyota 4-speed for many years, then a SM465....I now run a built 700R and MUCH prefer it for hardcore offroad use.....

 

[Off Duty]

I ran a Toyota 4-speed for many years, then a SM465....I now run a built 700R and MUCH prefer it for hardcore offroad use.....

Why? (if you don't mind?)

Very curious. Planning a swap to 5 speed on my 62.

Not hard core, but more expod/SAR type stuff.

What are the advantages in your opinion of an auto over a 5 speed?

 

[woody]

control....I ran outta feet when doing vertical climbs....

there are plusses to both...you cannot bump start an auto and you will need to address heat....but once you master left-foot-braking with the auto, you can REALLY smooth out your driving in difficult terrain, something even a double-t-case setup cannot fully fix with a stick shift.

my 700 has about $1500 into it in including the shifter and cooling....full manual valve body, clear-gate Art Carr shifter, fully redone-upgraded internals, fan-controlled remote cooler. I've had a few folks drive the rig and everyone is impressed with how smoothly it operates....my 700 is mated to a D300 transfer with 4:1 gears and fine-spline shafts (behind a stock TBI 350)

find me at an event, you can drive it too

 

[mookie]

automatic is easier on your axle shafts too right? the main thing that i like about the manual over the auto is if you are climbing something steep and you feel the front end lifting off you can punch the clutch and roll backwards out of it and maybe save a roll

 

[woody]

my cleared-gate Art Carr shifter allows for one smooth motion from 1st to R in the automatic....and I can reverse under power...

I quit counting my rollovers in my FJ40 when I hit 25....I haven't rolled once since installing the automatic...and I'm driving harder lines and taking more chances. I also haven't broken any parts that I can think of...



(well, one roll, but that was deliberate....and doesn't count....the 'flopping tree' at Katemcy is tradition )

 

[woody]

Most of the adapter breaking issues is due to uneven "twist" between the engine and transmission(transfercase) mounts.

two fixes for that:

1> properly mount the motor using only the two motor mount locations and the transmission using the one centered stock mount location....a triangulated mounting scheme doesn't display twist issues and breakage....I've yet to break mine

2> eliminate frame twist issues by doing a full frame-mounted and properly braced/triangulated roll cage (which VERY few people do correctly, including me)


Agreed on the test drive....I drove a handful of rigs before making the switch...and after 15 years of offroading stick shifts, I don't regret the change.

 

[Eskimo]

I too, had a 465, and am now running a 700R4. Mine has a 205 behind it for now, until I do something like a Stak or an Atlas.

I wouldn't even think of changing it to a manual. So much better control, and it is far more gentle on parts.

With a stick, when you hit a big rock, one of 3 things happens:
1: you stall.
2: you climb it.
3: you break.

With the auto, you can just stop and then gently throttle over it.. Mine has also NEVER starved for fluid, though the engine did. It's also good when I'm on the limiter in first and just nail second without letting off the throttle or losing momentum. I get LOTS of compression braking as well,

 

[boots4]

So far I too prefer my auto more than the manual. I run a 4L80 converted to manual shift with t.converter lock-up operational. I echo the reasons of finess on hard obstacles, shock absorbtion from the t.converter especially since I run a diesel with lots of torque built early in the rpm curve, torque multiplication of the t.converter, and since I tow with my rig it makes backing up the trailer into odd places much easier.

I again echo the concern for heat control. If you run an auto and work it (wheel it), a tranny temp gauge should be included in your conversion $. Watch the temps and do your maintenance (fluid, filters) and an auto will be happy.

 

[Isotel]

I Love my Auto..

Drove a Rig last weekend with an NV4500 and an Atlas, It was so Forign to me, took a while to get used to. some things i loved, Gearing was way lower than mine, But having Boots on and trying to brake/shift Clutch was a pain.

I love my 700r4 and dana300 even more after that, should be very fun once i get my 4:1 gears in the T-case

EDIT: one thing i hate about the auto is my on the Dirt roads getting to and from the trail, My old Stock 4 speed was PERFECTLY geared to put it in second and haul ass up the steep climbs to the trailhead.. with my Auto im constantly having to down shift into 1st.. But this is because of my 4:11 Diffs and 37" Tires.. 5:29's would fix that, but i dont want to sacrifice the strength

 

[Gumby]

From all the reading I've done and my own experience, the 700R4 will require several hundred in mods to be anywhere near reliable.

I have to disagree. Later 700s were fine. Keep 'em cool and they'll do well.

I run a TH400 because I don't need the OD and the TH400 mates up to the 203GRB without an adapter. If I wanted the OD I'd certainly go with a 700R4.

I have plenty of compression braking and love the ability to have complete control of the speed all the way down to stopped.

I run a "temp" gauge for trans temp. It's a generic gauge that does water or oil temp. I stuck it right through my trans pan. Now I have a drain plug too.

 

[kling-on]

I like my stick I think I have more control BUT I'm one of the few and I do run hand throtal for real steep starts and 180 to 1 makes up for alot ... I cant stand drivin my stock geared truck any more its just for campin now ... but as said about the auto is WAY more point and shoot its VERY driver friendly but the club I'm in down here theres 4 guys with 700r4 and 203/205 doublers and now their tranny case is the weak link... all have broken at least 4 but there also runnin 44's

 

[88chevota]

I went from a 700R4 to a SM465. the gearing is so much better. If you have a simple little hand throttle control you can still left foot brake. Having a manual is a little more work but it is pretty fun. I run my rpm's up to 2700 with the hand throttle and can stand on the brake and I creep right up.

It really boils down to your own preference.

 

[70CRZR]

I have been beating an SM465 / NP205 combo for many years and never had an issue. With that said, I have a 700R4 ready for rebuild, but still undecided on the tcase.

 

[orangefj45]

i had a little something to do with both woodys and isotels th700 swapa. i knew they'd be happy with them. a properly built and coooled auto is a great way to go. they're reliable and extremely driveable. i've said this many times. you have two feet, run two pedals. imho, wheeling with an auto is a lot more care-free and enjoyable, especially on difficult, uneven steep obstacles.

sure, manuals give you a little more control, but that's about it.


the issue with the cast gm 465-205 adapter breaking is not uncommon. proper mounts can/will cure that.


i've done quite a few conversions on cruisers, both autos and manuals. i just finished one on splash's rig on here; "the color of money". he went from a standard to an auto and loves it, would'nt dream of going back. we did'nt change anything but the transmission.
i've put autos in anything from minitrucks ( my own with a gm V6, th350 and double cases back in the early 90s ) to full size trucks ( i had a gm on rockwells and 44s ) to cruisers and jeeps. the "worst" one was a buddies' gm 1 ton longbed 4wd. he runs a moded cumins 12V and does a lot of towing. we built a th700 for him and got 80k miles out of it. i would not advise doing so to the novice builder but it was fun to see how far it would go. kind of one of those " i bet ya....." deals.

i spent quite a few years in the transmission industry so i'm comfortable with the manuals and autos as far as knowing how they work and what works. i know that to a novice, autos are a foreign language. they're really just a highly modified hydraulic pump.


my vote is for the auto as usual.

 

[Radd Cruisers]

With a little skil could a guy pull apart one of the 700r himself and do the upgrades George?

 

[Isotel]

i think this sort of thing is best to leave up to someone who knows what they are doing.. too much stuff to mess up IMO..

any auto conversion should have $1000+ Set aside for rebuilding that sucker to make it bomb proof.

 

[orangefj45]

that's a loaded question.

i don't like to see people get in over their head. usually, if you're gonna learn how to work on or rebuild automatics, you'd want to start with a fairly simple transmission to get your feet wet. something like a th350 or a C4. that's what i learned on. a th700 has about twice the parts of a th350 and they're a lot more "sensitive" to contamination and the clearances need to be exact if you want it to hold up. anybody can make a transmission work, but for how long is the real test.
you would need some specialized tools as well. some of these tools are not cheap, like the piston compressor. you could pay a transmission shop a few bucks to pull the piston and wash the parts to save some moey on tooling i guess.
having the technical know-how is another aspect that should not be overlooked. sure, you could purchase a rebuild video or an atsg type manual, but you still won't know all the little trick and tips that you'd learn from somebody who's been building autos for a while.
i know a few guys who have tried to build their own 700s against my advice. the vast majority ended up spending a ton of money on parts, built the trans and ended up with an auto that did'nt work. then they had to pay a shop to build it and buy more parts. so in the long run it cost them even more money than having it built in the first place.
if it were me, i'd find a local shop with a good reputation ( not due to TV comercials you've seen ) or a qualified transmission builder who'd be willing to build the trans as a side job. it's money well spent.
i have built a few autos and would not do it for a customer because i don't consider myself a "transmission builder". i take all my transmission work to the shop i used to run, even though it's a 2 hour drive. i know how they rebuild the units and which parts go into it. i even have the same builder work on all my transmissions because i'm pretty picky when it comes to stuff like that. not only can i not afford to do the job more than once, but when it leaves the shop, it's also got my name on it. so it needs to work well and do so for a long time............

so my answer is "i'd rather you don't". it's not a smart way to try to save money.

 

[orangefj45]

ps: isotel's th700 was built by the guy in my post above as well.

 

[Radd Cruisers]

Prolly the way to go, thanks George and Isotel.