ATF: Toyota WS vs Amsoil vs Idemitsu (3 Viewers)

[bloc]

The thing about anecdotal evidence, is that it's still evidence. It may be weak individually, but if you go looking around, you'll see a pattern of similar anecdotal tales. While there aren't many tales of Toyota transmissions failing while running WS, there are some, but I think that's more a testament to their overall build quality than it is the quality of their ATF. They make great vehicles, not necessarily great fluids. Amsoil makes great fluids. Amsoil is to oil what Toyota is to vehicles. I think the combo could be excellent.

While there are anecdotal tales of trannies failing early with Toyota WS (albeit not many, but some) I have yet to find, after hours of research and googling, anybody with anything bad to say about Amsoil for any vehicle among users who have actually tried it, other than perhaps it's too expensive or overpriced snake oil or stuff to that effect.....or people who haven't actually tried it, but stick with the common, unquestioned wisdom that you MUST stick with OEM fluids, or else....

If Amsoil was really so dangerous and potentially harmful to OEM trannies, then we should be seeing negative reviews pop up, and plenty of "anecdotal" tales of people with ruined transmissions. But if you look around, you'll be hard-pressed to find any such tales. In fact, you'll find the exact opposite.....and plenty of stories of people who were having transmission trouble or general noise or poor shifting that actually improved after switching to Amsoil....and similar stuff for their engine oil. I know I sound like an Amsoil shill here, so let me say I'm sure any of these oils are fine and we're probably splitting hairs here, but at this point, I've gotta give the edge to Amsoil in terms of what I believe has the highest probability of longest term trouble-free operation.

I haven't seen many people claiming amsoil is bad or will ruin transmissions, just that taken as a whole it isn't necessary, and given the experience of most of the people here, may not even be beneficial.

A lack of evidence of failures running amsoil may simply be the small number of transmissions running it, with the exact same low failure rate of toyota transmissions. The sample size is so small we may never hear about the problems.

But draw whatever conclusions you want. For every anecdotal story of class-8 trucks running the stuff there are cities full of allison-equipped fire apparatus that run factory fluids under horrible driving conditions with negligible transmission failures.

Another conclusion we could draw from this is that it's good for allison transmissions to beat the hell out of them...

 

[Adrenaline6]

I find it hilarious that this forum have guys who change a whole bunch of stuff that Toyota puts on their 200 because stock isn't really adequate for the use that they plan to use their vehicle for, yet then think the ATF fluid has unicorn tears in it and nothing else should be used because Toyota knows better and the aftermarket can't be better than oem. Seriously? Do you not see the dichotomy here?

 

[bloc]

I find it hilarious that this forum have guys who change a whole bunch of stuff that Toyota puts on their 200 because stock isn't really adequate for the use that they plan to use their vehicle for, yet then think the ATF fluid has unicorn tears in it and nothing else should be used because Toyota knows better and the aftermarket can't be better than oem. Seriously? Do you not see the dichotomy here?

There's that word again.

Ultimately, the evidence suggests WS is "adequate." For millions of vehicles driving billions of miles (but not @jmivorn.) Also for people here that tow often, and very heavy.

But if synthetic unicorn tears make people feel "better," go right ahead. Seriously.

 

[Adrenaline6]

There's that word again.

Ultimately, the evidence suggests WS is "adequate." For millions of vehicles driving billions of miles (but not @jmivorn.) Also for people here that tow often, and very heavy.

But if synthetic unicorn tears make people feel "better," go right ahead. Seriously.

I don't think anyone is doubting that it isn't "adequate". Just like, in stock form, its components for 4 wheeling, and what most of the owners of the 200 use it for is also "adequate".

Do aftermarket parts on your 200 just put on to make you feel better?

 

[TomEf]

I don't think anyone is saying non-OEM stuff can't be better, but engineered fluids with additive packages going into complex mechanisms with both organic and metal components is not anything like swapping a plastic bumper cover for a steel one. It's pretty well agreed upon that not all coolant is created equal, why would you assume ATF would be?

 

[bloc]

I don't think anyone is doubting that it isn't "adequate". Just like, in stock form, its components for 4 wheeling, and what most of the owners of the 200 use it for is also "adequate".

Do aftermarket parts on your 200 just put on to make you feel better?

No. When I go on my trips I often need the increased ground clearance, traction, shock damping, and rocker protection. All places I found the stock systems lacking, through experience.

I don't have a lot of parts many others do specifically because the stock stuff is adequate in my case.. like front bumper, winch, roof rack, lockers, dual batteries, etc. I'll likely be getting a kaymar rear bumper eventually because it will provide protection while looking stock. The stock plastic can push up into the tail lights and destroy those.. with the number of times I've dragged my rear that is a real risk.

So no, it doesn't have anything to do with feel better. The parts I've chosen to install actually help me go to the places I do.

 

[Adrenaline6]

No. When I go on my trips I often need the increased ground clearance, traction, shock damping, and rocker protection. All places I found the stock systems lacking, through experience.

I don't have a lot of parts many others do specifically because the stock stuff is adequate in my case.. like front bumper, winch, roof rack, lockers, dual batteries, etc. I'll likely be getting a kaymar rear bumper eventually because it will provide protection while looking stock. The stock plastic can push up into the tail lights and destroy those.. with the number of times I've dragged my rear that is a real risk.

So no, it doesn't have anything to do with feel better. The parts I've chosen to install actually help me go to the places I do.

Exactly.

 

[Jmivorm]

There's that word again.

Ultimately, the evidence suggests WS is "adequate." For millions of vehicles driving billions of miles (but not @jmivorn.) Also for people here that tow often, and very heavy.

But if synthetic unicorn tears make people feel "better," go right ahead. Seriously.

Ok i see the grammar fairy just cant seem to stop his ego from jabbing at my opinions. Seems someone else has a sore butt for whatever reason. I am sorry if I have hurt your livelyhood or income in some way with my distaste for ws fluid. I didnt realize you had a vested interest in it, but if you dont it’s embarrassing the lengths you are willing to go to say the same thing in a different insulting way each time. i gave some facts from my experience and shared my opinion. Nothing more. I realize folks like you don’t want to hear opposing views and will do whatever to shut down anyone who disagrees with them, but others might be a little interested.

 

[bloc]

Exactly.

And yet, the stock fluid is adequate, while those other parts weren't for me.

Ok i see the grammar fairy just cant seem to stop his ego from jabbing at my opinions. Seems someone else has a sore butt for whatever reason. I am sorry if I have hurt your livelyhood or income in some way with my distaste for ws fluid. I didnt realize you had a vested interest in it, but if you dont it’s embarrassing the lengths you are willing to go to say the same thing in a different insulting way each time. i gave some facts from my experience and shared my opinion. Nothing more. I realize folks like you don’t want to hear opposing views and will do whatever to shut down anyone who disagrees with them, but others might be a little interested.

Typing is easy, as is grammar. Helping people see through amsoil's marketing is more difficult. I'm simply keeping your arguments in mind.

 

[Adrenaline6]

And yet, the stock fluid is adequate, while those other parts weren't for me.

That is great...some people think some of the stock parts you changed are adequate for them too.

Some people see what you put on and don't find it adequate for them at all.

See how it works?

 

[bloc]

That is great...some people think some of the stock parts you changed are adequate for them too.

Some people see what you put on and don't find it adequate for them at all.

See how it works?

We can pursue this logical fallacy further once -millions- of people have done the trails I have in a stock 200 without traction, clearance, body damage, or damping issues.

 

[Adrenaline6]

We can pursue this logical fallacy further once -millions- of people have done the trails I have in a stock 200 without traction, clearance, body damage, or damping issues.

No one is arguing that fact. That is the fallacy. The idea that some people don't mind paying a little extra for "more than adequate" is the real question. I seriously doubt every component you changed is just "adequate" for what you need. Some are "more than adequate" and you willingly paid more for it even if you didn't need to.

 

[bloc]

No one is arguing that fact. That is the fallacy. The idea that some people don't mind paying a little extra for "more than adequate" is the real question. I seriously doubt every component you changed is just "adequate" for what you need. Some are "more than adequate" and you willingly paid more for it even if you didn't need to.

Finally thought of the term.. false equivalence.

Mind telling me which parts of my build are more than adequate?

 

[Adrenaline6]

Finally thought of the term.. false equivalence.

Mind telling me which parts of my build are more than adequate?

It's exactly equivalent. That is your question to answer really. I can just guess. I see King's. Would OME work adequately? King's are at a higher price point. What about wheels? There are cheaper 17's that would be adequate, but you chose Rock Warriors. Not bashing any of your choices at all. Just the opposite actually. It is you who are bashing choice. It's a free country and you are free to put what you want on it.

Like you, other people are free to put in a fluid that they think will last longer and fair better than oem due to proven synthetic composition alone.

 

[tacoduck]

This thread is funny. 200 series tranny failures are very, very, rare. From what I’ve read it’s pretty dang close to bulletproof. Same on the 100.
Run whatever ATF you like, but I’m not losing sleep over what ATF is in my truck. (Knocks on wood).

 

[linuxgod]

Every part, fluid, etc is a trade-off. Steel bumpers trade off aero for functionality. Steel sliders trade off weight for protection. A/T tires generally get better traction but give up MPG. Amsoil may be a superior fluid to Toyota WS in some scenarios, but at a trade off of cost or performance under different scenarios. (I've not done a VOA of each, nor am I a chemical or mechanical engineer, so I say "may" because I'm speculating).

All of those trade-offs can also be negative too, sometimes unexpected. If your steel bumper cracks the frame horns because of the weight and breaks off while you're driving, all the winching functionality and strength are lost... plus all the damage you incur. Despite the steel bumper being "better" (stronger, more functional, or whatever) it ultimately can fail in unexpected ways too. Amsoil might perform better at very low temps but also might break down at lower temps - and thus the A/T warning light might not save you... or it might perform better at high temps but allow for more wear at lower temps. Switching to a "superior" product does not guarantee it's best suited for your particular scenario.

Sorry @Jmivorm but your single failure of a 4runner transmission is virtually meaningless. It's statistically insignificant. I mean that mathematically. I won't say you're an outlier because you need a much larger sample before could even claim you're an outlier. Your transmission issue could be due to Toyota ATF WS, but is far more likely due to an issue with incorrect mechanical tolerances during assembly, or a failed breather valve allowing moisture into the transmission, or any number of other things... and that's assuming you 100% never abused the transmission (intentionally or accidentally... i.e. do you ever stop on a hill at a traffic light and rest your foot on the accelerator slightly to keep from rolling back rather than using the brake?) Unless the particular ATF WS you received was not actually up to spec, it's extremely unlikely that it's the cause of your transmission failure at <80k miles.

I've run Toyota ATF WS. I've run Amsoil ATF WS. I currently have Toyota ATF WS in my truck. I'll probably switch back to Amsoil the next time I do a 12 quart swap. For 99% of use cases it likely makes no difference on longevity and as @bloc points out the OEM fluid is adequate. If I wasn't towing a ton I'd 100% just run Toyota ATF WS and never think about it because I know several people who have gone 400-500k miles on ATF WS, so for every "my transmission failed at 80k miles" there are multiple "my transmission just failed at 450k miles" people too.

If I get 300k out of my transmission while using Amsoil WS and towing for roughly half that (150k), is that a win or a failure?

 

[bloc]

It's exactly equivalent. That is your question to answer really. I can just guess. I see King's. Would OME work adequately? King's are at a higher price point. What about wheels? There are cheaper 17's that would be adequate, but you chose Rock Warriors. Not bashing any of your choices at all. Just the opposite actually. It is you who are bashing choice. It's a free country and you are free to put what you want on it.

Like you, other people are free to put in a fluid that they think will last longer and fair better than oem due to proven synthetic composition alone.

Unless it has changed since I got my suspension OME doesn’t make the parts available to service their shocks at home. I can get rebuild kits for those expensive kings for $25 per corner and already have the remaining tools to do the work. Since I was moving away from rock solid Toyota reliability in these parts, serviceability was a critical factor in my suspension choice.

I got my rock warriors locally for a great price, and their low weight in combination with P285-70R17 AT tires resulted in near-stock tire/wheel weight in an attempt to keep running stock dampers. Turns out that setup wasn’t adequate, so I got the kings and LTs.

Once again, people can do whatever they want. I won’t stop resisting the notion that amsoil has functionally improved anything that actually needed improving in our transmissions. Even if you do run the stuff you should still change it on a schedule.. just like WS.. which is all that is really needed in the vast, vast majority of cases to avoid transmission problems.

Keep in mind amsoil is the company telling people to run their motor oil in the toyota 5.7 for 20k miles per change. A claim that has been demonstrated via used oil analysis as bad for the engine long term.

 

[tacoduck]

I went back and looked. I counted 5 transmission failures on the 200 Ih8mud forum since 2007. Clearly, whatever transmission Toyota is using in these trucks is robust.

 

[Adrenaline6]

Unless it has changed since I got my suspension OME doesn’t make the parts available to service their shocks at home. I can get rebuild kits for those expensive kings for $25 per corner and already have the remaining tools to do the work. Since I was moving away from rock solid Toyota reliability in these parts, serviceability was a critical factor in my suspension choice.

I got my rock warriors locally for a great price, and their low weight in combination with P285-70R17 AT tires resulted in near-stock tire/wheel weight in an attempt to keep running stock dampers. Turns out that setup wasn’t adequate, so I got the kings and LTs.

Once again, people can do whatever they want. I won’t stop resisting the notion that amsoil has functionally improved anything that actually needed improving in our transmissions. Even if you do run the stuff you should still change it on a schedule.. just like WS.. which is all that is really needed in the vast, vast majority of cases to avoid transmission problems.

Keep in mind amsoil is the company telling people to run their motor oil in the toyota 5.7 for 20k miles per change. A claim that has been demonstrated via used oil analysis as bad for the engine long term.

Glad to hear everything has worked out for you and that you have found what works for you. That is what is great about choices and it seems to be the 200's choices is gaining momentum.

I totally agree on changing ATF on a schedule no matter what. I also, just on empirical data available, know that synthetic bases last longer and break down less over time and use than non synthetic. It's just fact. That is why synthetic oil is widely recommended by many car manufacturers, when it wasn't not to long ago.

I do agree that Amsoil's claims of extended oil changes is part marketing, they do still recommend following manufacturers change intervals and cleverly claim it as Reserve Protection. In other words, they aren't recommending it, but if you do it, you will be better protected then the other oil's:

This is straight from their datasheet:

"Reserve Protection​

AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil provides reserve protection, allowing you to go up to 25,000 miles or one year (in normal service) between oil changes if you choose. Its unique synthetic formulation and long-drain additive system are inherently stable to resist oxidation and neutralize acids over longer periods. "

Companies like Amsoil and Ravenol do lubricants. That is their business. If they sucked at it, they wouldn't be in business very long in very short order, especially with the prices their products cost . They are also in the racing game and are allowed to develop and test in those extreme conditions. One would think they probably know what they are doing. Not to mention they are scrutinized highly by 3rd party testers all the time. Again, not a knock on OEM at all, totally adequate. It's just that knocking them because they are not OEM, is to me, short sighted.

 

[RangerPepe]

Wow wow wow…. This debate is so heated!! Probably will beat the topics about best engine oil brands/viscosity for 200.

On a serious note I would like to point out couple of week points in the arguments on both sides.

1. Toyota is a for profit corporation that does stuff for PROFIT, if it can cut the costs by using inferior fluid and get away with it (by having less warranty claims costs then saved expenses) it most definitely will. Toyota does not produce fluids and probably award fluid manufacturing contracts to the lowest bidder.

2. If transmission fails prematurely it is not necessary because of the WS fluid itself (as there might be 1000s more reasons outside the fluid).

3. AmsOil is a company that specifically focuses on creating technical fluids for marine and automotive use, it competes against OEMs and other brand fluids companies. If their product would be inferior, they would probably go out of business very soon as satisfied customer usually keep good experience to him/herself and unsatisfied tends to let everybody know.

4. In high temp, high friction applications synthetically produced oil (ATF or Engine) will always be superior to its mineral counterpart. (I.e. will allow more service time before failure, will tolerate higher temperatures and pressure).

5. Is Toyota WS ATF enough for majority of users? – Yes, it is. Are there more chances to damage your transmission due to heat stress while using Totyota WS vs AmsOil synthetic ATF? – Yes, there are, and they increase with ATF age.

6. Are there marketing claims of Toyota WS been a “lifetime” fluid that does not require maintenance false? – Yes, for any reasonable person these claims are false. (Talking about Toyota knows better)

Quote from Lexus Service Manual.

“Transmission
The transmission and transmission fluid are completely sealed unit. Therefore, periodic checks and replacement of the transmission fluid are not required, and there is no dipstick on the transmission. Any repairs that require adding or replacing fluid should be performed by a qualified technician following procedures in Lexus service and repair publications.”

My suggestion to come to the consensus that.

Regular maintenance of ATF is a must. Toyota WS or anything else compatible – does not matter. Please don’t claim that AmsOil ATF does NOT make transmission run better/smoother without trying it first and people who say otherwise are just following marketing gimmicks. If somebody have a good experience with AmsOil ATF and think it is better, one has all the rights to say so and suggest it to the others.