ATF: Toyota WS vs Amsoil vs Idemitsu (1 Viewer)

[linuxgod]

My take on this is that WS fluid meets all my needs and expectations. It's a high quality fluid that's been validated by the factory. In my use, I perceive no shortcomings of it. Including price and accessibility of sourcing the fluid.

There's likely many qualities of fluid beyond what we can see like simple cold viscosity. We as layman don't have the ability to meter, test, and validate these things with expansive data in objective fashion. Some anecdotal testaments that it works doesn't in my mind substantiate or validate performance over the long term.

Brings me back to a previous car I owned that had a Getrag Supra 6-speed transmission. It took years of the community to realize Redline was causing seals to swell in the tranny potentially junking them at worse, or needing a rebuild at best. A better fluid really wasn't needed but of course the community was interested in trying boutique brands.

Perhaps Amsoil works better. Perhaps it's worse. Guess I'm more interested in using my vehicle than performing a science experiment. On that note, I don't bother with full fluid flushes/exchanges in search of better. A periodic drain and fill per factory is my preference to avoid unexpected drama.

I tend to agree, though FWIW I know the Toyota dealer by me uses "bulk" fluid to do their exchanges. At <$5/quart I'm fairly sure it's not Toyota WS, though maybe they really do get an amazing bargain on 55 gallon drums? My point is that they're (likely) using cheap ATF WS on hundreds if not thousands of Toyota vehicles which *probably* aren't having transmission failures. So in the end I doubt any fluid which is a "certified" WS will be an issue... but then again the savings is so small (relative to the vehicle cost) and the benefit likely so small (relative to the normal Toyota A/T life which is 300-500k miles) that I tend to agree why bother?

 

[TeCKis300]

I tend to agree, though FWIW I know the Toyota dealer by me uses "bulk" fluid to do their exchanges. At <$5/quart I'm fairly sure it's not Toyota WS, though maybe they really do get an amazing bargain on 55 gallon drums? My point is that they're (likely) using cheap ATF WS on hundreds if not thousands of Toyota vehicles which *probably* aren't having transmission failures. So in the end I doubt any fluid which is a "certified" WS will be an issue... but then again the savings is so small (relative to the vehicle cost) and the benefit likely so small (relative to the normal Toyota A/T life which is 300-500k miles) that I tend to agree why bother?

Oh man. Dealerships are a whole other animal and don't get me started. Lexus as a dealership franchise is better than most with their focus on customer service, higher standards, and workforce composed of more experienced techs. Yet I've had experiences with their shortcomings too just as with every other service department. Toyota as a mainstream service department is probably not focused on catering to the Land Cruiser which is on the far end of their product spectrum. Either way, it's why I do my own services.

To your point, thanks to standards, I would agree most every certified WS fluid will likely be fine for nominal use.

 

[ekolpack]

Oh man. Dealerships are a whole other animal and don't get me started. Lexus as a dealership franchise is better than most with their focus on customer service, higher standards, and workforce composed of more experienced techs. Yet I've had experiences with their shortcomings too just as with every other service department. Toyota as a mainstream service department is probably not focused on catering to the Land Cruiser which is on the far end of their product spectrum. Either way, it's why I do my own services.

To your point, thanks to standards, I would agree most every certified WS fluid will likely be fine for nominal use.

Yeah, Stealerships are hazard fraught. They seem like auto mechanics, you can find good ones and bad ones. If you can find a good one, it might worth going to. But in any major metropolitan area, you're probably going to have several local shops that specialize in Toyota, or Japanese vehicles at least who will likely be much better.

 

[ekolpack]

So here's my summary of what the folks at BobIsTheOilGuy forum had to say.

It was a mixed bag. Some absolutely trashed Toyota WS ATF saying it's terrible cheap crap. Others said it was fine or actually good, and intended for Aisin trannys.

Some raved about how great Amsoil was and how it improved their shifting and always came out looking clean upon changing. Others said it was unproven in Yota trannies and it would be risky to use. One person pointed out the slightly higher viscosity of Amsoil ATL.

I think it's safe to say, of the alternatives, Idemitsu is the safest choice. One person dug this up, which reveals it is pretty much exactly identical to WS, even with the same additives, just with a full synthetic base: Idemitsu ATF Type TLS-LV свежее - https://www-oil--club-ru.translate.goog/forum/topic/28529-idemitsu-atf-type-tls-lv-%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B5/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

I think this person summed it up best:
"WS fluid is probably the most criticized fluid I’ve ever seen (outside of Dexcool), but at least Dexcool had failures early in their application. WS didn’t.

It’s mostly because it’s not synthetic and people automatically assume it’s inferior. The other thing is fluid color, it changes color pretty quickly as factory fills and that scares people. It scared me the first time too...74,000 miles. Fluid looked almost black in my Lexus LS460...shifting fine, changed it, still shifted fine. Preventive maintenance. Every change thereafter came out cherry red. Never an issue up till 180,000 miles when I traded it in. Now I have a 2016 Avalon...fluid was dark at 50,000 miles, but no shifting issues. Now at 86,000 miles, shifts like a dream.

I’m sure other fluids are good, but there’s nothing wrong with WS fluid."

So I dunno, it's still a toss up. Maybe I'll flip a 3 sided coin

Honestly, if I had to choose right now, I'd probably go with Amsoil SS ATL. There's just way too many people saying great things about this oil and I can't find a single negative review of the product itself.

Of course Amsoil can't prove it's long term reliability in Toyotas with tons of examples of people running it exclusively in their Toyotas up to 500k miles like WS can, because Toyota strongly discourages/demonizes anything but their own ATF in their vehicles, but I think it's safe to say that if Amsoil is causing smoother shifts and the fluid is coming out perfectly clean (maybe even cleaner that WS), and there are almost zero complaints from reviewers, it's extremely unlikely that it is actually causing problems that will jump out at some point down the road.

If it were causing metal issues, there'd be metal shavings or burnt oil in the pan. If there were gasket/seal issues, there'd be leaks or plastic/rubber particulate present in drained fluid. Beyond this, what sort of unknown lurking issues might waiting to manifest with longterm Amsoil usage? Are there magical Amsoil damage fairies that are really good at covering their tracks? Maybe I don't know enough about trannys, but again, it seems very, very unlikely that hidden damage is actually happening that will suddenly jump out of nowhere 200k down the road. I just don't buy it.

So yeah, I'm sliiiiiightly leaning towards Amsoil ATL, with Idemitsu as my second choice, with Toyota WS being the safe/conservative bet, but honestly, I don't think you can go wrong with any of these. Aloha!

 

[pvchaitanya]

Dont get hung up on fluid. When in doubt use the OEM which is engineered, testing and sold by Toyota rather than after market who is guessing the specs and composition. The temperature and fluid characteristics is one major part of equation. But there could be others such as additives to maintain the transmission internal parts.

Most important point is, Transmission fluids are most neglected and often misstated as life time, sealed etc.
I really think it should be changed at 60k-80k for all vehicles.

 

[RangerPepe]

I have replaced (full amount) Toyota WS ATF in my 2017 Lexus LX 8 Speed transition at 54K miles with AMSOIL Signature Series ATF. Initial feel was really good and transmission shifted silky smooth. 5K miles after everything is still super smooth without any issues whatsoever.

My takeaway is AMSOIL ATF worked very well, IMHO it should be better because it is a synthetic fluid. Toyota WS fluid would be sufficient as basically any good brand compatible ATF.

Just a big shout out to the people … It does not really matter what WS COMPATIBLE ATF you use as long as you do a regular fluid change your transmission will do just fine. If transmission was long overdue for a fluid service it is always a "gamble" to change ATF. Either it will improve things or wash away the last things that were holding already dead transmission together.

 

[Adrenaline6]

My take as well. There are standards for a reason. If it labeled as a WS fluid, it meets or exceeds the requirements for that fluid. Toyota makes a reliable machine...its fluids don't contain any unicorn tears or pixie dust. even if it did, the reputable oil manufacturers like Amsoil, etc can easily analyze the composition and duplicate /improve on it.

Another AT synthetic fluid that has a WS rating is Ravenol (German)

ATF Fluid - RAVENOL T-WS Lifetime Fluid

RAVENOL AMERICA is the official catalog for Blauparts RAVENOL oils and lubricants available for sale.

www.ravenolamerica.com

They even make an AHC fluid, but it isn't available directly form a US Ravenol dealer

RAVENOL AHC Active Height Control Fluid

RAVENOL AHC Active Height Control Fluid is a full synthetic hydraulic fluid based on PAO (Poly-alpha-olefin) and Ester. RAVENOL AHC Active Height Control ...

www.ravenol.de

 

[molanginaeda]

I'm using toyota WS ATF only. It's been some thinking to switch to Ravenol or Amsoil. I can get Ravenol from Blauparts dot com. Ravenol cost is higher. Amsoil cost is comparable to Toyota WS. Until there is good cost saving with amsoil/Ravenol, I will stick with WS.

 

[Jmivorm]

I'm using toyota WS ATF only. It's been some thinking to switch to Ravenol or Amsoil. I can get Ravenol from Blauparts dot com. Ravenol cost is higher. Amsoil cost is comparable to Toyota WS. Until there is good cost saving with amsoil/Ravenol, I will stick with WS.

I have never had a transmission with amsoil fail. I run it in my 2019 200 series and wifes gx460. Didnt have it in my sons 2017 4runner which is in the dealership currently waiting on a new transmission. Never towed anything and mix of city and highway. 79682 miles and all I can think is I wish i had changed the ws crap out 10000 miles ago. dont know if it would have mattered but at this point my ws failure rate at under 100k miles is 100%. Small sample size I know but the bill is real enough.

 

[pvchaitanya]

I have never had a transmission with amsoil fail. I run it in my 2019 200 series and wifes gx460. Didnt have it in my sons 2017 4runner which is in the dealership currently waiting on a new transmission. Never towed anything and mix of city and highway. 79682 miles and all I can think is I wish i had changed the ws crap out 10000 miles ago. dont know if it would have mattered but at this point my ws failure rate at under 100k miles is 100%. Small sample size I know but the bill is real enough.

wow.
apart from obvious conclusion that 4runner + toyota-ws failed prematurely. Do you think of any potential signs or reasons for this failure?
Did you know how the TS oil looked at the shop?

Has 4runner been on off road trails? driving on beaches?

 

[bloc]

There are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of 4runners that didn't suffer the same fate.

 

[32cls6speedmt]

interesting video by professor kelly.

 

[Jmivorm]

wow.
apart from obvious conclusion that 4runner + toyota-ws failed prematurely. Do you think of any potential signs or reasons for this failure?
Did you know how the TS oil looked at the shop?

Has 4runner been on off road trails? driving on beaches?

Owned since new. Stock tires until 8000 miles ago. Lifted slightly and put 285/70-17 duratracks on it. Oil black and burnt. No reverse and solenoid code from all the contaminants in fluid. Never offroaded other than gentle hunting treks totaling no more than 20 miles over vehicles entire life. Never driven in sand. Tennessee vehicle.

 

[Jmivorm]

There are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of 4runners that didn't suffer the same fate.

Not saying anyone else's will. Obviously it is not a normal occurrence and thank you for assuming I am to much of a neophyte to realize that. I imagine the other readers who couldnt make that connection appreciate you pointing it out as well.

 

[grinchy]

interesting video by professor kelly.

WS discussion starts around 25min in.

 

[bloc]

Not saying anyone else's will. Obviously it is not a normal occurrence and thank you for assuming I am to much of a neophyte to realize that. I imagine the other readers who couldnt make that connection appreciate you pointing it out as well.

It may have outsized emotional influence to you, but is but one tiny data point in the argument about whether WS and these transmissions are adequate. Just in case you weren’t aware.

But I am smiling that you got butthurt about my comment. I’ll let you figure out which part of your grammar isn’t acceptable for second grade.

 

[ekolpack]

Owned since new. Stock tires until 8000 miles ago. Lifted slightly and put 285/70-17 duratracks on it. Oil black and burnt. No reverse and solenoid code from all the contaminants in fluid. Never offroaded other than gentle hunting treks totaling no more than 20 miles over vehicles entire life. Never driven in sand. Tennessee vehicle.

The thing about anecdotal evidence, is that it's still evidence. It may be weak individually, but if you go looking around, you'll see a pattern of similar anecdotal tales. While there aren't many tales of Toyota transmissions failing while running WS, there are some, but I think that's more a testament to their overall build quality than it is the quality of their ATF. They make great vehicles, not necessarily great fluids. Amsoil makes great fluids. Amsoil is to oil what Toyota is to vehicles. I think the combo could be excellent.

While there are anecdotal tales of trannies failing early with Toyota WS (albeit not many, but some) I have yet to find, after hours of research and googling, anybody with anything bad to say about Amsoil for any vehicle among users who have actually tried it, other than perhaps it's too expensive or overpriced snake oil or stuff to that effect.....or people who haven't actually tried it, but stick with the common, unquestioned wisdom that you MUST stick with OEM fluids, or else....

If Amsoil was really so dangerous and potentially harmful to OEM trannies, then we should be seeing negative reviews pop up, and plenty of "anecdotal" tales of people with ruined transmissions. But if you look around, you'll be hard-pressed to find any such tales. In fact, you'll find the exact opposite.....and plenty of stories of people who were having transmission trouble or general noise or poor shifting that actually improved after switching to Amsoil....and similar stuff for their engine oil. I know I sound like an Amsoil shill here, so let me say I'm sure any of these oils are fine and we're probably splitting hairs here, but at this point, I've gotta give the edge to Amsoil in terms of what I believe has the highest probability of longest term trouble-free operation.

 

[Jmivorm]

It may have outsized emotional influence to you, but is but one tiny data point in the argument about whether WS and these transmissions are adequate. Just in case you weren’t aware.

But I am smiling that you got butthurt about my comment. I’ll let you figure out which part of your grammar isn’t acceptable for second grade.

I got butthurt about my $6500 single data point. Some dude with a high post count mostly parroting the obvious on an internet forum is not gonna bother me. Armchair quarterback away hero, my butt might hurt but its not because of your witt or comments.

 

[Jmivorm]

The thing about anecdotal evidence, is that it's still evidence. It may be weak individually, but if you go looking around, you'll see a pattern of similar anecdotal tales. While there aren't many tales of Toyota transmissions failing while running WS, there are some, but I think that's more a testament to their overall build quality than it is the quality of their ATF. They make great vehicles, not necessarily great fluids. Amsoil makes great fluids. Amsoil is to oil what Toyota is to vehicles. I think the combo could be excellent.

While there are anecdotal tales of trannies failing early with Toyota WS (albeit not many, but some) I have yet to find, after hours of research and googling, anybody with anything bad to say about Amsoil for any vehicle among users who have actually tried it, other than perhaps it's too expensive or overpriced snake oil or stuff to that effect.....or people who haven't actually tried it, but stick with the common, unquestioned wisdom that you MUST stick with OEM fluids, or else....

If Amsoil was really so dangerous and potentially harmful to OEM trannies, then we should be seeing negative reviews pop up, and plenty of "anecdotal" tales of people with ruined transmissions. But if you look around, you'll be hard-pressed to find any such tales. In fact, you'll find the exact opposite.....and plenty of stories of people who were having transmission trouble or general noise or poor shifting that actually improved after switching to Amsoil....and similar stuff for their engine oil. I know I sound like an Amsoil shill here, so let me say I'm sure any of these oils are fine and we're probably splitting hairs here, but at this point, I've gotta give the edge to Amsoil in terms of what I believe has the highest probability of longest term trouble-free operation.

I agree. i own quite a few class 8 trucks with allison automatics and when we switched 25 years ago to synthetic snake oil at $5000 per drum, our transmission replacements ceased immediately. Have not replaced a transmission in over 9 years and some units are approaching 12 years old. prior to the change we werent getting 5 years in between overhauls on any of them.
My sample size on this is approaching 120 units so that might have a little more weight. I relaize it has nothing to do with toyota but it is an example of how drastically a factory fill fluid can be upstaged by a premium product. At some point allison brought out their own “transynd” fluid, but I wasn’t switching at that point.
The thing is, for the quantities were talking on a toyota, even amsoil is pretty cheap. If you want to change frequently, so be it, but why not still run top tier synthetic fluid. Ill be dumping whatever the new transmission comes filled with and putting amsoil in in the first 500 miles.

 

[ekolpack]

I agree. i own quite a few class 8 trucks with allison automatics and when we switched 25 years ago to synthetic snake oil at $5000 per drum, our transmission replacements ceased immediately. Have not replaced a transmission in over 9 years and some units are approaching 12 years old. prior to the change we werent getting 5 years in between overhauls on any of them.
My sample size on this is approaching 120 units so that might have a little more weight. I relaize it has nothing to do with toyota but it is an example of how drastically a factory fill fluid can be upstaged by a premium product. At some point allison brought out their own “transynd” fluid, but I wasn’t switching at that point.
The thing is, for the quantities were talking on a toyota, even amsoil is pretty cheap. If you want to change frequently, so be it, but why not still run top tier synthetic fluid. Ill be dumping whatever the new transmission comes filled with and putting amsoil in in the first 500 miles.

Wow, this is amazing! Thanks for sharing.

And again, if you go looking you'll find a lot of this kind of experience.....maybe not with a sample size of 120, that's pretty spectacular, but most people report this same kind of thing with at least a few vehicles.

Anyway, thanks again for sharing! That seals the deal for me, Amsoil ATF it is!