are 80 oem recovery points ok for strap recovery?
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Grench
SILVER Star
I did some measuring and some thinking. Those giant triangular monster shackle brackets won't fit on the ARB inside the frame rails. You could put them out in/on the wings, but that would defeat any pretended purpose. I still think they're cool though.
I'm with you on this Doug. An 80 hoop is actually a pretty good design IMO. It also has give built into it. As a point of reference, I have a 12k rated boat bow hoop on my tandem axle trailer as a loading winch point. It's smaller in diameter than the 80 factory hoop.
If you are worried about the hoop, buy a new one. If it's deformed, buy a new one. I'd also bet any certified welder would give the factory 80 hoop the nod as well.
Dan, do you show the factory hoops as an available? Any options (like plated) available?
ST
To me, a closed loop design is going to be stronger than an open hook until the open hook is rediculously large and obstructive. All this talk about aftermarket recovery points is much ado about nothing unless you've really gone into full on competition and are regularly bashing them flat. Even then, as Sumo points out it would be cost, weight and space effective to keep a couple factory hooks as spares.
DougM
And yes, I'd STILL like more details or pics of the only 80 tow point ever reported failed. Thanks.
DougM
And yes, I'd STILL like more details or pics of the only 80 tow point ever reported failed. Thanks.
Doug,
You should know that I am in 100% agreement that the factory recovery points are adequate for routine recoveries and they are well engineered for their purpose.
However, there have been 2 other reports of failure here on 'Mud. I believe that one "failure" was from a visual inspection following an aggressive recovery. The owner found a weld that was cracked and posted pictures.
The other reported failure was fairly well documented and resulted in vehicle damage though nobody was injured. This was also an aggressive recovery and, as I recall, someone speculated that there may have been some damage to the loop before or during the recovery. In any event, it failed during a snatch and the D-shackle with the loop was propelled at great speed into the rear hatch of the recovery vehicle causing significant body damage. As I said, this was documented with pictures somewhere here on 'Mud.
The point that I am making is that the guy driving the recovery vehicle should inspect every component to be used in the recovery. The loops on both trucks, the D-shackles, the snatch strap, and anything else. Vehicle recoveries are potentially very dangerous when something goes wrong.
-B-
Another solution... http://www.sonoransteel.com/store_shackle_hangers.html.
They might fit or Steve can produce them, so they fit.
I'm not related to Steve or Sonoran Steel, but I used his products in my "4Runner days".
I liked the quality.
They might fit or Steve can produce them, so they fit.
I'm not related to Steve or Sonoran Steel, but I used his products in my "4Runner days".
I liked the quality.
I have a little personal experience with the factory tow loop, so I guess I will weigh in.
A couple of months ago I get a call from a good friend, he is stuck something fierce, will I please come help him out. Sure, no problem right? So I grab an old strap that I have and head out. It's about an hours drive, so I am chatting with him on the phone as I drive. He said he was playing in a sandy pit that is being dug out, when all of a sudden the front end just disappears. I think he is exaggerating, till I pull up on scene. He is in my old 88 4Runner 3.0 with twisted torsion bars and helper springs out back, running brand new 31X10.50.15 BFG muds. Apparently there was a spring at the back of this pit, and with all of the dry weather the surface looked dry and stable, the same as the rest of the pit. It most definitely was not! The front end of the Runner was sunk in gooey mud up to the middle of the bumper. With no tow hooks or loops on the Runner, I removed my hitch and inserted it in his receiver, ran a strap through my tow loop and hooked both end loops on the receiver in the hitch on the Runner. Now, I'm running stock Michelin's, but seem to have a fairly packed surface from which to pull from so I think we should have him out in no time. So I get behind him, shift to 4lo, lock the diffs and have at it. The Runner doesn't move, at all. Now, I'm taking up the slack in the strap and pulling hard, but nothing. So I resort to some small bumps, nothing. Next we try a good amount of slack and a running start, no dice. After a few pulls the old strap I have pops, that sucked. So we move on to the only other thing we have on hand, a chain. I know, I know, stupid, stupid, stupid! I didn't want to use it, but the hour and a half drive to town and back to get another strap made me try it. Needless to say I nearly lost my rear window, and my pristine body is no more (and that's all I have to say about that). So after we destroy the chain we head to town. The only place open is Wally World, we go pick up a couple of straps, 15,000lb I believe, and head back out. There's more to the story, but I've run on long enough, so to finish up, we spent about 9 hours digging, pulling, tugging, snapping, and hi-lifting to get the thing out. I ended up beating the hell outta the hitch on the Runner. When all was said and done, the hitch was more than a foot back from where it started, the top of it was pulling the bumper into a V. The tow hoop...fine, nothing wrong, no deformation, no cracks, no failure.
Now I know a lot of what we did wasn't the smartest, please don't flame, I was just helping a friend out of a sticky situation and figured I'd share some real world experience. Attached are a couple of pics for your enjoyment.
Edit: Just to let everyone know, this was the DS rear loop.
Nak
A couple of months ago I get a call from a good friend, he is stuck something fierce, will I please come help him out. Sure, no problem right? So I grab an old strap that I have and head out. It's about an hours drive, so I am chatting with him on the phone as I drive. He said he was playing in a sandy pit that is being dug out, when all of a sudden the front end just disappears. I think he is exaggerating, till I pull up on scene. He is in my old 88 4Runner 3.0 with twisted torsion bars and helper springs out back, running brand new 31X10.50.15 BFG muds. Apparently there was a spring at the back of this pit, and with all of the dry weather the surface looked dry and stable, the same as the rest of the pit. It most definitely was not! The front end of the Runner was sunk in gooey mud up to the middle of the bumper. With no tow hooks or loops on the Runner, I removed my hitch and inserted it in his receiver, ran a strap through my tow loop and hooked both end loops on the receiver in the hitch on the Runner. Now, I'm running stock Michelin's, but seem to have a fairly packed surface from which to pull from so I think we should have him out in no time. So I get behind him, shift to 4lo, lock the diffs and have at it. The Runner doesn't move, at all. Now, I'm taking up the slack in the strap and pulling hard, but nothing. So I resort to some small bumps, nothing. Next we try a good amount of slack and a running start, no dice. After a few pulls the old strap I have pops, that sucked. So we move on to the only other thing we have on hand, a chain. I know, I know, stupid, stupid, stupid! I didn't want to use it, but the hour and a half drive to town and back to get another strap made me try it. Needless to say I nearly lost my rear window, and my pristine body is no more (and that's all I have to say about that). So after we destroy the chain we head to town. The only place open is Wally World, we go pick up a couple of straps, 15,000lb I believe, and head back out. There's more to the story, but I've run on long enough, so to finish up, we spent about 9 hours digging, pulling, tugging, snapping, and hi-lifting to get the thing out. I ended up beating the hell outta the hitch on the Runner. When all was said and done, the hitch was more than a foot back from where it started, the top of it was pulling the bumper into a V. The tow hoop...fine, nothing wrong, no deformation, no cracks, no failure.
Now I know a lot of what we did wasn't the smartest, please don't flame, I was just helping a friend out of a sticky situation and figured I'd share some real world experience. Attached are a couple of pics for your enjoyment.
Edit: Just to let everyone know, this was the DS rear loop.
Nak
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One of the process engineer's here used to work for Nissan. He said some of the 'Tow hooks" on various vehicles, weren't tow hooks at all. They were only there for strapping the car for transport. FWIW.
There are several vendors that sell the bolt-on brackets and you can use your own D-shackles. Most prefer the screw in pins over the cotter pin style.
-B-
only a 18,000lb working load.... you'd be amazed at the force mud can apply.
What I don't like about the point Walking Eagle shows here is that it's designed to mount on a flat face and the breaking strength will rely solely on the fasteners. Unless you've got a large and thick flat plate to mount it to (such as you'll find on bulldozers and construction equipment), bolts will tend to deform (which instantly weakens the mount) the surface and perhaps pull right through it on the next pull. A thick metal plate welded across the frame horns that faced straight down could be a way to turn this into a mount exposed only to shear forces, and it would double as a skid plate and frame horn reinforcement.
The better way to mount is as the factory loops are mounted, which has the force matched up against the friction of the loop pressed against the steel and held there by the applied torque of the fasteners. As noted above, the factory hooks are mounted with their fasteners at a 90 degree angle to the expected force. The force is against the fasteners in shear this way (stronger) rather than longitudinal where they get stretched.
Load wise, I carry a 27,000 lb strap and expect the factory loop to easily handle that unless I've damaged it. I think that's the key - inspecting anchor points prior to a pull. In all my years I have never seen anyone do that on their own truck - actually bend down and inspect it before attaching the strap. I've seen a lot of cautious people inspect the OTHER truck which is absolutely crucial since an error here will send metal bits toward the assisting vehicle.
When things get hairy and nasty, such as the 4Runner mud stuck pictured above, youu have to consider multiple attachment points and really use your head.
As for types of hooks on vehicles, as pointed out there are normally what is referred to as 'tie downs' on all vehicles. These are designed for forces nearly straight down and secure cars to ship decks, and car carriers. Those are emphatically NOT what we are talking about here, and the loops on the 80 are not tie downs.
The better way to mount is as the factory loops are mounted, which has the force matched up against the friction of the loop pressed against the steel and held there by the applied torque of the fasteners. As noted above, the factory hooks are mounted with their fasteners at a 90 degree angle to the expected force. The force is against the fasteners in shear this way (stronger) rather than longitudinal where they get stretched.
Load wise, I carry a 27,000 lb strap and expect the factory loop to easily handle that unless I've damaged it. I think that's the key - inspecting anchor points prior to a pull. In all my years I have never seen anyone do that on their own truck - actually bend down and inspect it before attaching the strap. I've seen a lot of cautious people inspect the OTHER truck which is absolutely crucial since an error here will send metal bits toward the assisting vehicle.
When things get hairy and nasty, such as the 4Runner mud stuck pictured above, youu have to consider multiple attachment points and really use your head.
As for types of hooks on vehicles, as pointed out there are normally what is referred to as 'tie downs' on all vehicles. These are designed for forces nearly straight down and secure cars to ship decks, and car carriers. Those are emphatically NOT what we are talking about here, and the loops on the 80 are not tie downs.
Grench
SILVER Star
As I mentioned when I brought this one up, it would need a backing plate and the weak point would be whatever you bolted it to. It uses 1/2" grade 8 bolts.
As for Walking Eagle's implication that 18,000 lbs working force is somehow light... Dude, thats 9 tons working. Yield is generally 5x working with deformation > 2x. For perspective the some of the 4 bolt versions put forward by vendors here that are used and abused regularly are only rated for 6,000 lbs pull.
The larger issue with the 3 bolt monster shackles is that there isn't physically enough space to cram them into an ARB with an 18,000 winch between the frame rails. I think out on the wing might be possible if you turn it 90 degrees which might not be such a bad thing when you consider side pulls. They'd make good fishing pole holders then.
They're the toughest bolt on shackle mounts I've ever seen. They're fully one chunk of metal with no welds. They mount funky and they're just fugly enough to be interesting. Mounting them out in the wing of an ARB though... I'd never use them to max load anyway. Someday when I feel like I've got $150 more in my wallet than needs to be there I might get a set. Then a trip to my bro-in-law with the plasma cutter for backing plates... Yeah, I've thought about this a lot. Too much.
I've always wondered why nobody's ever developed a recovery point with a bit of give built into it. Something like a high density elastomer that would round off the energy spike of a chain or yank a bit. I'd imagine it's a liability issue and the whole market of recovery points is so fraught with liability concerns that there's no innovation going on there. Dunno.
It's a difficult subject as many of the hooks require drilling, which truthfully should only be done by someone with serious fabrication and some engineering skills. After all, you're moving from a tested factory attachment point with a tested item attached to it into the unknown. Will the new mount holes tear out since the factory location was so close? Will the stack height of the new mount create a prying effect due to the new leverage of a taller mount? Will the fasteners exert a crushing effect on the fully boxed frame?
These are all questions more crucial than a home brewed roof rack, or an untried brand of tires, because if the untested recovery point fails a serious injury or death may result. I'd be willing to bet that after rollovers, the #1 killer of our sport is recovery accidents where an attachment fails.
My concern has been and continues to be that some reading this thread will get the impression that their factory points are inadequate and order something to bolt on their truck. And that whatever they bolt on will be far more dangerous. There have been veiled implications that the factory loops are actually mere tiedowns for shipping. Second hand accounts of one failing, and a couple more were implied.
I think it's a more responsible position for us to say in a thread like this that "The factory tow points are adequate for recovery." Period. If then a discussion ensues where folks who regularly need Caterpillar D9s to drag their buried truck out of Mississippi delta mud are looking for an extreme solution, then so be it.
I'm uncomfortable with the implications that the factory stuff should be replaced by everyone because they're inadequate. Nobody's out and out said that, but surely there are members out there googling recovery point websites because they think they'll never cut it in Moab without a different recovery point bolted to their truck. If that happens in large numbers, I worry that we WILL start to read about things failing here and someone may get hurt.
Grench's comment is telling in that some popular vendors may be selling recovery points rated at only 6000lbs. And he didn't say this but sometimes an equipment seller whose website you visit may have a moron ordering things and accidentally order 3000 of the wrong rated bolts to ship with that attaching point. Or the bolt supplier gets an order for the proper Grade 8 bolts, but the numbnuts in the warehouse tosses a different grade into the box or unknown to all the bolts originally came from a Chinese manufacturer whose quality control is about 40 years out of date.
I've personally experienced something similar. Years ago I bought a product from Germany made by Hella. It showed the mount and the bolt as included. When it arrived, the mount was slightly different and the product did not work as advertised. I had a friend who speaks German do some investigating and quickly found out that most of the major US importers of Hella stuff were saving 17 cents and ordering it without the tested Hella mount in favor of a US made copy that flexed. This is not uncommon.
I hope you're getting the point that replacing your factory recovery loops may be far more risky than keeping with them. These factory loops were designed and engineered by Toyota. The fasteners were high quality, the proper grade, corrosion treated, and matched well to the job (truck weight, frame flex, mount points and location, etc). With all the posts questioning the factory loops, I think this point needs to be made loud and clear.
If your loops have been used heavily for years, are damaged, or show significant corrosion you'd be hard pressed to find a better solution than ordering a new set (with fasteners if possible) from Cdan.
DougM
It's a difficult subject as many of the hooks require drilling, which truthfully should only be done by someone with serious fabrication and some engineering skills. After all, you're moving from a tested factory attachment point with a tested item attached to it into the unknown. Will the new mount holes tear out since the factory location was so close? Will the stack height of the new mount create a prying effect due to the new leverage of a taller mount? Will the fasteners exert a crushing effect on the fully boxed frame?
These are all questions more crucial than a home brewed roof rack, or an untried brand of tires, because if the untested recovery point fails a serious injury or death may result. I'd be willing to bet that after rollovers, the #1 killer of our sport is recovery accidents where an attachment fails.
My concern has been and continues to be that some reading this thread will get the impression that their factory points are inadequate and order something to bolt on their truck. And that whatever they bolt on will be far more dangerous. There have been veiled implications that the factory loops are actually mere tiedowns for shipping. Second hand accounts of one failing, and a couple more were implied.
I think it's a more responsible position for us to say in a thread like this that "The factory tow points are adequate for recovery." Period. If then a discussion ensues where folks who regularly need Caterpillar D9s to drag their buried truck out of Mississippi delta mud are looking for an extreme solution, then so be it.
I'm uncomfortable with the implications that the factory stuff should be replaced by everyone because they're inadequate. Nobody's out and out said that, but surely there are members out there googling recovery point websites because they think they'll never cut it in Moab without a different recovery point bolted to their truck. If that happens in large numbers, I worry that we WILL start to read about things failing here and someone may get hurt.
Grench's comment is telling in that some popular vendors may be selling recovery points rated at only 6000lbs. And he didn't say this but sometimes an equipment seller whose website you visit may have a moron ordering things and accidentally order 3000 of the wrong rated bolts to ship with that attaching point. Or the bolt supplier gets an order for the proper Grade 8 bolts, but the numbnuts in the warehouse tosses a different grade into the box or unknown to all the bolts originally came from a Chinese manufacturer whose quality control is about 40 years out of date.
I've personally experienced something similar. Years ago I bought a product from Germany made by Hella. It showed the mount and the bolt as included. When it arrived, the mount was slightly different and the product did not work as advertised. I had a friend who speaks German do some investigating and quickly found out that most of the major US importers of Hella stuff were saving 17 cents and ordering it without the tested Hella mount in favor of a US made copy that flexed. This is not uncommon.
I hope you're getting the point that replacing your factory recovery loops may be far more risky than keeping with them. These factory loops were designed and engineered by Toyota. The fasteners were high quality, the proper grade, corrosion treated, and matched well to the job (truck weight, frame flex, mount points and location, etc). With all the posts questioning the factory loops, I think this point needs to be made loud and clear.
If your loops have been used heavily for years, are damaged, or show significant corrosion you'd be hard pressed to find a better solution than ordering a new set (with fasteners if possible) from Cdan.
DougM
Grench
SILVER Star
I have to say I agree with DougM on this one 90%.
The stock recovery points have a few image issues.
A lot of us have ARBs. There has been a lot of discussion on if the loops on the ARB are recovery points or just high-lift jack points. They're on a piece of metal going through the bumper with 6 bolts to the frame. The problem is that they're thin and some have bent or bashed them. The feeling I've seen is that the ARB points will do in a pinch, but to not treat them as primary recovery points.
So, with the two most common options being in question, a lot of people have searched around for a do-it-yourself solution that doesn't involve welding. I know that a weld can be stronger than any bolt if done by a well practiced and trained individual. I'm neither. I'm betting that >80% of us on here could tack two chunks of metal together, but <10% of them would be willing to stake their truck let alone their life on that weld. So, the bolt on shackle mounts pop up.
There are a few vendors advertising here that sell bolt on recovery shackles made from a chunk of steel with a hole through it connected to a chunk of plate with 4 holes in it. They're built to have a backing plate on the other side of whatever they're bolted to. This is a good design, but it has a few potential failure points. The person bolting it on, the way the bumper/channel/whatever it is getting bolted to connects to the rest of the vehicle, the bolts, proper backing plate, finally the weld. These are usually rated around 6,000 lbs. Very safe and insurance friendly rating, but if true, way lower than needed on a 6,000 lb truck. (I feel the rating is low & overly conservative, but that is just IMHO.)
I agree that the factory points are likely stronger than people give them credit for. Does anyone have a way to figure out what the factory points should be rated at for a standard working load? (Usually 1/2 test 1/3 deformation 1/5 breaking IIRC). Knowing what they are actually rated at would go a long ways to putting this question to rest. What grade are the bolts that Toyota used on them? Many of us have replaced them with the bolts supplied in our ARB kit. Are those as good?
A snatch strap under 24000+ lbs of shock load is a pretty substantial hit. A big big thing is to stay the heck out of the way. Keep your hood up if there is pull on the front. I'm seriously considering a Milford too.
None of this is safe. I think we all know that. The forces in recovery are gargantuan. We are each responsible for maintaining our own safety and those around us in recovery operations.
The stock recovery points have a few image issues.
- I've seen a few posts mentioning events where the stock Totyota recovery points were deemed inadequate by the event sponsors. Will the stock recovery points on an 80 ever be seen as inadequate at a TLCA sponsored event?
- There have been a few accounts of failed connectors.
- I've seen one photo of what looked like a broken 80 point, but no real story connected to it.
- There is a story in here somewhere of an 80 with a bashed in D pillar from a shackle that took flight. The point that failed there was actually on the vehicle that the 80 was recovering or being recovered by.
- Looks. They aren't chrome plated and you can't hang a bright yellow shackle from them.
- Clearance. They may protect the PS cooler a bit, but they also lower the front by about 3"
A lot of us have ARBs. There has been a lot of discussion on if the loops on the ARB are recovery points or just high-lift jack points. They're on a piece of metal going through the bumper with 6 bolts to the frame. The problem is that they're thin and some have bent or bashed them. The feeling I've seen is that the ARB points will do in a pinch, but to not treat them as primary recovery points.
So, with the two most common options being in question, a lot of people have searched around for a do-it-yourself solution that doesn't involve welding. I know that a weld can be stronger than any bolt if done by a well practiced and trained individual. I'm neither. I'm betting that >80% of us on here could tack two chunks of metal together, but <10% of them would be willing to stake their truck let alone their life on that weld. So, the bolt on shackle mounts pop up.
There are a few vendors advertising here that sell bolt on recovery shackles made from a chunk of steel with a hole through it connected to a chunk of plate with 4 holes in it. They're built to have a backing plate on the other side of whatever they're bolted to. This is a good design, but it has a few potential failure points. The person bolting it on, the way the bumper/channel/whatever it is getting bolted to connects to the rest of the vehicle, the bolts, proper backing plate, finally the weld. These are usually rated around 6,000 lbs. Very safe and insurance friendly rating, but if true, way lower than needed on a 6,000 lb truck. (I feel the rating is low & overly conservative, but that is just IMHO.)
I agree that the factory points are likely stronger than people give them credit for. Does anyone have a way to figure out what the factory points should be rated at for a standard working load? (Usually 1/2 test 1/3 deformation 1/5 breaking IIRC). Knowing what they are actually rated at would go a long ways to putting this question to rest. What grade are the bolts that Toyota used on them? Many of us have replaced them with the bolts supplied in our ARB kit. Are those as good?
A snatch strap under 24000+ lbs of shock load is a pretty substantial hit. A big big thing is to stay the heck out of the way. Keep your hood up if there is pull on the front. I'm seriously considering a Milford too.
None of this is safe. I think we all know that. The forces in recovery are gargantuan. We are each responsible for maintaining our own safety and those around us in recovery operations.
all these discussions have only confirmed in my mind that the easiest and wisest thing to do may be to add a second line to hold the first one or the shackle in case of failure. As simple as tying a rope to the shackle from another point on the vehicle to prevent rebound.
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My biggest problem with the factory tow hooks is their location. They constantly get hung up and slammed into rock, that beating can't be good for the long term integrity, strength. That said, I have slammed them HARD and have proven they can take a pretty good hit.
Luke is sending an extra set of his recovery points with my new rear bumper and they will be welded into the ARB. His are made from 3/4" x 2.5" steel with a 1" hole, I am thinking that will be plenty strong.
Luke is sending an extra set of his recovery points with my new rear bumper and they will be welded into the ARB. His are made from 3/4" x 2.5" steel with a 1" hole, I am thinking that will be plenty strong.
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True, but the receiver hitch makes a good recovery point.
that is a point that was debated some
I'm just saying Idaho Doug carries a 27,000lb strap. Alot of people carry 30,000 lb strap. I'd rather have my strap have a lower rating than the hook, and have it fail before the hook.
