AltFuel Anyone making "black diesel" (WMO/ATF/hudraulic oil) out there ?? (1 Viewer)

[sandec]

I looked into WMO several years ago and finally dismissed the idea and went with WVO. WVO is turning out to be more trouble than it's worth now that there's a market for it. I've got and lost at some point 15 veggie oil sources from restaurants. I'm downright tired of asking restaurants that have been asked already 500 times. I'm also tired of paying $4.50 a gallon. So It made me look back into WMO again. To me there's too many question marks about what's in that black smoke. Of course it seems like everything these days causes cancers and you can't avoid everything. But if there's obvious things that do increase your risk I'd rather stay away. There is definitely a correlation between diesel exhaust and cancer and WMO will at the very least be a little bit worse than diesel exhaust and at the most much much worse. But there's also people that smoke cigarettes and don't see that as a risk so everybody evaluation of risk is different. Here's an interesting discussion on the subject, particularly post #9.

used motor oil - Forums

With that being said if you are still interested in running WMO I've heard guys that have success doing it use a water methanol injection system like from snow performance. I've heard this "washes" (for lack of a better word) the cylinders clean during the combustions. As well as lower EGT and other things that make water/methnol advantageous.

 

[cody c]

Interesting read, I havent seen any links to a study of what the exact pollutants and quantities are in comparison from diesel, to say a %50 mix of WMO and diesel.

But I would ask, where are these extra polutants coming from? If its motor oil with some extra carbon in it, well I didnt think carbon itself was a dangerous chemical.

If anyone sees some links to that please post them!

edit: here's a link regarding some of the toxic components in WMO, though Im still reading it and looking for info regarding emmissions instead of contents of WMO

http://www.nature.nps.gov/hazardssafety/toxic//oilused.pdf

also a good quick read, this shows a method of processing WMO: http://www.ijens.org/103602-1717 IJMME-IJENS.pdf

 

[cody c]

OK, this gets more interesting.

For one, the emissions studies are difficult to find and for two:

"The approximately one billion gallons of used oil generated in the United States each year comes primarily from lubricating oils — motor and transmission oils — and from hydraulic and cutting oils used in industry.

The researchers found that selling untreated used oil as an inexpensive fuel, the most common method of managing used oil in the United States, causes significant emissions of heavy metals like lead and zinc.

There are three primary ways of managing used oil: About 14 percent of old oil is re-refined; 11 percent is treated and recycled for heating fuel; and 75 percent is resold, without treatment, as fuel oil to industrial consumers. It’s the latter that presents the biggest problem, according to the authors of the new study.

"We have the oil changed in our cars, but what happens after that [oil] is out of sight and out of mind?" asks Bob Boughton, a researcher with the California Department of Toxic Substances Control and lead author of the paper. "Only 10 percent of the more than 100 million gallons of used oil generated each year in California is recycled to produce useful lubricants, just as paper is recycled to produce paper again."

source: Waste motor oil management may pose threat to health and the environment


So in an uneducated conclusion, %75 of WMO is already being used as fuel oil already.

Hello, thats about 750 million gallons per year to industrial clients in the US alone!

And we are worried about someone adding some to their cruiser? I hope someone can correct me here...

 

[LCDiesel60]

Sandec and Cody--great comments; shows you are both thinking this through and doing research--glad to see that as compared to lot's of opinions without putting the 'brain in gear first'.
I used to be in the Used Oil recycling business for a long time...and have been in the environmental industry since '83'...and now do safety and environmental consulting/cleanup work in Oregon..a pretty 'Green' state. I've studied this issue a lot and come up with my own 'opinion'..as we all do. Bottom line; converted my home oil furnace to a used oil furnace and it burns 'cleaner' than the factory heating oil furnace did--really is amazing! Recently started experimenting with WMO variations in 2 different diesel rigs (LC/Ford) and they both run better on WMO variations as compared to diesel. Health/environment: in my opinion,..using WMO that has been cleaned well and no 'hazardous wastes' (solvents, et' cetera) and a maintained rig is 'Greener' and cleaner with less 'impact' than diesel; less energy used to transport/refine, more BTU energy. Keep in mind that collecting, refining, transporting used oil and crude from the ground all take energy and create emissions in the process. What is the least impacting? Also, most diesel emission studies are for large rigs, no cleaner burning small rigs.
..Bottom line; we all have different opinions for various reasons..here is some of mine from 'inside' the Green' industry. Diesel engines are the most efficient, whether diesel or WMO blends--I think diesel engines should be the leader in energy efficiency and use until we can find the next great solution (gasoline as a fuel is so toxic).
Better go--getting to be a lot of hot air on this entry--
LCDiesel
Oregon

 

[CUMMINS123]

Diesel using motor oil

The most important thing is to filter aleast 20 times down to a 1 mircon. Than thin it and put additives to clean the engine from cardon. That's it

 

[KillerPea]

Over the years...I've gotten a ton of help and good advice from Mud. Heres my little return to the Alt fuel forum.
I've been running WMO for approx 5 years. I've probably logged aprox 80k running wmo. The truck is a 2002 F250 7.3. I originally ran it on a mostly stock truck...just chipped, stock filtration on the truck. I ran that way, with percentages as high as 100% regularly. The only issue was cold start..especially when cold. After approximately 40k, I added 2 pre-filters inline and performed the tank pickup mod. When I dropped my tank, it was as clean as a new fuel tank.
Since then, the only issue I have had was trying to run a tank of unprocessed vegetable oil without being able to shut down on diesel....it cost me a set of injectors. When I sent my injectors in as cores and had them torn down, Casserly told me that they were in great shape, no wear, just had sticking pintles due to the fact that the vegetable oil was crystallizing in the nozzles everytime I shut the truck down.

I added water/meth injection to the truck to combat possible coking about 1 year ago. I never really noticed a difference of any sort.
One of the prefilters that I added (10 micron, I believe) has 2 gm glow plugs in the base. That mod alone allowed me to run as much as 100% wmo in the winter....if I can get the truck started.
I have had to replace glow plugs every 1-2 years...I'm not exactly sure why the wmo is hard on them or if its some other issue, but its a small price to pay for free fuel.
Performance: WMO obviously changes the timing. My truck runs much quieter and much smoother on WMO. Depending on ambient and engine temperature, power is down anywhere from only slightly, to approximately 50% when I'm on 100% wmo. I attribute this to the higher viscosity limiting fuel delivery through thte injectors.
I'm sure that it would be wise for me to process my oil in a much more robust manner, like has been outlined in this thread. However...at some point it just makes more sense for me to work an extra hour and buy fuel instead of processing it. Therefore, all I do is filter the waste oil through one single 4 micron filter, one time, and pump it into the tank. The oil doesn't get any time to settle...sometimes I drain my own oil and dump it straight into my tank. I use any low vis fluids...oil, trans fluid, and powersteering fluid mainly.

I hope this info helps anyone that wants to run WMO. We have found that 7.3 Powerstrokes are the absolute best for WMO. We've been experimenting with percentages in 7.3s, as well as 6.0 powerstokes and various Dodges for several years. I've always been in a position to make andy repairs on my truck for fairly cheap, so I've probably played pretty loose with the WMO rules over the years. Nonetheless...I've already saved enough in fuel to justify pretty much any repair that could be blamed on the oil at this point as well.

I hope this helps anyone that is looking into switching over. There are tons of people that say it will ruin your engine and never work. THere's a chance that it won't work the same for everyone that is has for me...but so far I'm approaching 100k with no real issues that weren't caused by my own ignorance (WVO incident). I think I explained everything pretty well....hope it helps!!! Shane

 

[cody c]

thanks for posting the feedback killerpea. real world experience is just about the best opinion you can get.

 

[lucky]

I am really considering running this as a 50/50 mix with diesel in my HDJ81

 

[LCDiesel60]

Lucky--keep in mind that Kiilerpea is in Texas where it is usually a whole lot warmer than your location; Even an oil/diesel blend will thicken up more than diesel so the pre-heat will be a must on the tank/lines area...I think you get into the -50F in winter up there if I remember right..?

Sounds like a nice rig!

Thanks for the detailed feedback Killerpea.
LCDiesel60
Oregon

 

[uzj100]

Is this the kind of fuel used in the 6.2 military multi fuel engines? Has anyone converted a lc to multi fuel?

 

[roscoFJ73]

]


So in an uneducated conclusion, %75 of WMO is already being used as fuel oil already.

Hello, thats about 750 million gallons per year to industrial clients in the US alone!

And we are worried about someone adding some to their cruiser? I hope someone can correct me here...

Im guessing,but I would say that industrial clients have a way of cleaning up their emissions with scrubbers etc.
If they didnt ,there would be cancer clusters all around the factories that are using it and the lawyers would be having a field day

 

[cody c]

Im guessing,but I would say that industrial clients have a way of cleaning up their emissions with scrubbers etc.
If they didnt ,there would be cancer clusters all around the factories that are using it and the lawyers would be having a field day

ok, that makes some sense, in terms of avoiding using WMO for fuel in a cruiser out of fear of polluting I think it is still something that should be considered.

I wonder what they are using for scrubbers? In other words, how to take their technology and "back-yard-ify" it for the rest of us so we might have access to less-dirty fuel?

 

[LCDiesel60]

Actually most of the facilities that burn used oil do not have scrubbers; the quality for burning is in the initial processing at a commercial site (heat about 160 to 200), run through centrifuge. The commercial burners in most instances are just like a large home heating oil furnace and normally there is no scrubber.

Having been to several industrial burners--real world observations and discussions with the facilities. I think most people would be surprised how many facilities burn used oil as cleanly as diesel oil.

Best Cruiser diesel criteria for 'clean and green' would be; service injectors as needed, turbo adjusted to full output per specifications for vehicle/turbo, make sure you use quality used oil (oil changes or transmission shop-avoid industrial facilities with more odd products and chemicals)--settle/filter the oil and keep your fuel pump adjusted so you don't black smoke.

 

[John Galt]

Hey, if you want to save more money you can mix dog poo in with your pet's food. Anything to save a buck eh?

 

[cody c]

Hey, if you want to save more money you can mix dog poo in with your pet's food. Anything to save a buck eh?

And after a brief vacation returns our very own resident troll

 

[snowboardonsnow]

unfortunately he has many residing places

 

[cody c]

unfortunately he has many residing places

And never actually brings anything to the table, well other than insults or threats.

It kinda makes you wonder, who is this guy in real life? Does he live in his parents basement? Does suffer from some sort of mental disorder, does he hate his job or life so much that his only outlet is to be a troll on the internets and that is his only relief?

Ive seen some of his posts on other forums, threatening to slash people's tires because they wanted to use WMO and stuff like that. Maybe he could just go to a jeep forum and leave us here alone, as I dont think he'll be changing his ways or bring any solutions.

There's people who get stuck on problems and wait for someone else to fix them, and there's people who are trying to accomplish things and move forward, I see this in my work environment all the time and its really frustrating.

Anyway, to keep this tech, what kind of scrubbers would one need to aquire or construct in order to match what big industry might be using? Cyclonic? Filtration? etc,?

 

[snowboardonsnow]

And after a brief vacation returns our very own resident troll

Actually I had heard he mixed up some wrong bio diesel chemicles and got erritated eyes, or high or something, anyways word on the street is it made him go running out side in the daytime sun, which of corse turned the troll into a statue of rock. I guess a while later one of his minions decided to take his lair for his own and while throughing out his buckets of bio chemicals splashed them on his statue and it must have deasolved him some sort of caustic stripping of the stone... But that's just what I heard.

 

[amaurer]

The only people who would name themselves John Galt are 1) people who are actually named John Galt (small percentage) or 2) people who read Ayn Rand and think they're smarter than everyone else (high percentage).

Basically any time you see a "John Galt" on the web there is a very small chance that he's the same John Galt you know from life or from another forum, but a very high chance that hes going to behave in exactly the same way as every other internet John Galt.

(for those who don't know:

As the plot unfolds, Galt is acknowledged to be a creator, philosopher, and inventor who symbolizes the power and glory of the human mind. He serves as a principled counterpoint to the collectivist social and economic structure depicted in the novel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Galt)

 

[BigGQWesty]

Hi guys. 1st time poster from down under (Australia). As I've read it seams my difficulties sourcing WVO is pretty normal. A local pig farmer has stitched up our supply..
But WMO is like weeds.. Machanics can't give it away quick enough..
So I'm going to try it. I run a NA TD42 Nissan GQ patrol and these motors are bullet proof..

So what I'm thinking.
First filter. The classic shopping bag. Has been said to be roughly 75-80micron.
2nd filter with a heap of rear earth magnets at 20 micron.
3rd filter again with more rear earth magnets at 5 or 1 micron. Haven't bought yetbut will probably go 1 micron.

Going to thin the WMO with petrol. Will bend it down with 10% petrol.
To start i'll bend that mix with a 50/50 WVO and diesel and see how I go. Ideally I want to eventually run a 100% WMO blend, but will take my time getting there and report on changes on engine, smoke, power etc..
So, wish me luck..
Cheers