That has to do with fluid dynamics/aerodynamics - specifically the boundary layer and laminar air flow. Same reason airplanes and race cars have vortex generators on the wings and tails, and in the intakes.
Anyone ever installed bigger injectors?
- Thread starter Gassiper
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FastCarGuy
SILVER Star
Anyone run multiple tanks of fuel to show how much actual mpg increase this resulted in? I thought someone was also going to publish dyno results 
Your 450 is turbocharged? Awesome. Do you have any dyno charts to prove that you actually gained any power because I don't believe you.Anyone run multiple tanks of fuel to show how much actual mpg increase this resulted in? I thought someone was also going to publish dyno results
Oh nevermind I believe it because it's common technology with a specific purpose just like the 12-hole injectors
FastCarGuy
SILVER Star
Your 450 is turbocharged? Awesome. Do you have any dyno charts to prove that you actually gained any power because I don't believe you.
Oh nevermind I believe it because it's common technology with a specific purpose just like the 12-hole injectors
Wasn't trying to challenge anyone. It's been a while since it was done and I thought (perhaps wrongly) that someone had done a before dyno and was intending to run an "after" dyno. Also,I was interested to see actual mpg gains after multiple tanks of fuel...And you are more than welcome to stop by and drive my 80 and see what your own butt-dyno tells you
Your 450 is turbocharged? Awesome. Do you have any dyno charts to prove that you actually gained any power because I don't believe you.
Oh nevermind I believe it because it's common technology with a specific purpose just like the 12-hole injectors
C'mon man. That's unnecessary sarchasm. That is a ligitimate question/statement that @FastCarGuy posted.
I've been following this thread since the beginning and while I find it quite interesting, it's far from definitive. There have been no concrete posts with definitive results camparing new or reman. stock injectors to the reman. 12 hole units. To provide that kind of info requires more than what I've seen in this thread so far. The technology behind the 12 hole is legitimate, but there's nothing here yet that makes me want or need to put a set in my truck. I too look forward to more results from this. FWIW, I appreciate anyone who has and is putting in effort to research this topic.
I will take PayPal donations if someone wants me to dyno before and after. My local dyno is about $175 an hour we should book two hours. Anyone interested in donating to the cause PM me.
I suspect the reason nobody has concrete data like that is because they are busy driving their truck. Also it has been stated over and over in this thread, maybe you missed it, that the injectors will mainly improve part-throttle performance and MPG and therefore would be challenging to show on a dyno and MPG can vary so much from so many variables.
Therefore the cost to reward ratio is pretty much negative. If someone puts the injectors in they'll immediately notice the difference, it won't be ground breaking, and it won't be worth two hours of dyno time, but it os worth coming back here and saying "truck runs great and I love it!"
Yes I was sarcastic but sorry this thread would be one page long if all the naysayers with nothing of their own to add were removed.
I suspect the reason nobody has concrete data like that is because they are busy driving their truck. Also it has been stated over and over in this thread, maybe you missed it, that the injectors will mainly improve part-throttle performance and MPG and therefore would be challenging to show on a dyno and MPG can vary so much from so many variables.
Therefore the cost to reward ratio is pretty much negative. If someone puts the injectors in they'll immediately notice the difference, it won't be ground breaking, and it won't be worth two hours of dyno time, but it os worth coming back here and saying "truck runs great and I love it!"
Yes I was sarcastic but sorry this thread would be one page long if all the naysayers with nothing of their own to add were removed.
Anytime there are claims made without 100% conrete evidence on a topic, there will be responses from each end of the spectrum and everything in between. You know how that is. I'm glad that there are some who have seen improvements with this "MOD".
I did not miss the "injectors will mainly improve part-throttle performance and MPG and therefore would be challenging to show on a dyno and MPG can vary so much from so many variables" part. That still proves nothing. I could put new 4 hole injectors in my truck and likely experience the same gains. What many are looking for is more evidence so as to be able to make a better informed decision should they need to.
I'm not hating on the idea. I welcome it. That's why I follow this thread.
If you want to set up some dyno time and an exact comparison plan, I'll happily throw some money your way. Hell, I'll even meet you there if I can break away from the enslavement that is my job! I'd love to have the time to work on this kind of thing myself...
I did not miss the "injectors will mainly improve part-throttle performance and MPG and therefore would be challenging to show on a dyno and MPG can vary so much from so many variables" part. That still proves nothing. I could put new 4 hole injectors in my truck and likely experience the same gains. What many are looking for is more evidence so as to be able to make a better informed decision should they need to.
I'm not hating on the idea. I welcome it. That's why I follow this thread.
If you want to set up some dyno time and an exact comparison plan, I'll happily throw some money your way. Hell, I'll even meet you there if I can break away from the enslavement that is my job! I'd love to have the time to work on this kind of thing myself...
Actually, you probably wouldn't as this thread by 2001LC shows:
When to Clean or Replace fuel injectors
Sounds to me like the injectors that come with these trucks aren't that great even for a 4-hole.
You can also see in that thread that 2001LC paid good money to have his 4-hole injectors rebuilt and balanced, and the company that did the work said he should replace 3 of them because even after full cleaning and servicing they still had very poor spray patterns.
We may be able to work something out, I'll send you a PM.
I put 12 hole denso ebays in and ran for three days. After three days I took them out and put new to me redone denso stock 4 hole in. I didn't notice much. They sounded different on first install, but no different than putting the fresh stock 4 hole in on the forth day. I did one bank at a time, made short drives and checked techstream. The thing I didn't like was seeing the negative short and long trim around 15-18% combined. Not enough to trigger anything, but still. MAybe I got a bad set from ebay.
Who knows. I was going to replace my old stock ones anyway, I had time to kill. I returned the 12s to the seller, sent the originals to FIS and installed redone stock denso from rock @ $25 each. The Rock ones tested fine and were very even across the board at 70° The standard motor product cheapie close out injectors from rock are stock denso with the f020 # which is also the same as the 0800 stock # for 2005+ LC.
I wanted to leave the 12 holes in, I tried. But being so far off a close to zero idle trim made me take them out. They leaked down faster also. Meaning the time it took to get a zero gauge reading was faster and the 5 minute test time for leakdown was faster, just barely out of spec, at 19 PSIG. Anyone else see drastic trim #s?
Who knows. I was going to replace my old stock ones anyway, I had time to kill. I returned the 12s to the seller, sent the originals to FIS and installed redone stock denso from rock @ $25 each. The Rock ones tested fine and were very even across the board at 70° The standard motor product cheapie close out injectors from rock are stock denso with the f020 # which is also the same as the 0800 stock # for 2005+ LC.
I wanted to leave the 12 holes in, I tried. But being so far off a close to zero idle trim made me take them out. They leaked down faster also. Meaning the time it took to get a zero gauge reading was faster and the 5 minute test time for leakdown was faster, just barely out of spec, at 19 PSIG. Anyone else see drastic trim #s?
Did the injectors you bought say they were cleaned and balanced? Would be interesting to have FIS measure my 12-holes and see what they look like. Also I would expect a negative fuel trim when intalling 12-holes because the fuel is atomizing better = burning more completely which means you don't need to spray as much to get the desired energy from it.
sorry man, ebay balancing injectors out of a batch of 12 for 8, naw. And, NAW again on volume and flow rates.
No one should accept ecu trimming in the high teens on installed injectors. That's just me though. Maybe no one else is looking. (at idle)
I'm still waiting on stocks to come back from FIS to see what he says. They were fine though.
I"m not angry or bitter or anything. I'd love to have some that were in spec. I tried once and I won't try again. I certainly wouldn't pay more than the stock price for as new 12 hole injectors compared to 4 hole.
To mess around like this with an NA vehicle is almost absurd. SOrry. i'm pissed at UPS at the moment.
No one should accept ecu trimming in the high teens on installed injectors. That's just me though. Maybe no one else is looking. (at idle)
I'm still waiting on stocks to come back from FIS to see what he says. They were fine though.
I"m not angry or bitter or anything. I'd love to have some that were in spec. I tried once and I won't try again. I certainly wouldn't pay more than the stock price for as new 12 hole injectors compared to 4 hole.
To mess around like this with an NA vehicle is almost absurd. SOrry. i'm pissed at UPS at the moment.
I understand the anger at UPS. They are the worst.
However, you didn't really answer my question. What were the injectors advertised as? Were they advertised as "cleaned and balanced" or not? Were they used or new? What is your fuel trim with the stock injectors? Condition of O2 sensors so you know the trim is legitimate? Spark plugs and coils ok? Spark plugs haven't come loose on one bank?
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14.9 LT plus 2.4 is 17.3 which is 4.7 away from toyota's code trigger. Unless it's 25%, I could be mistaken @22% maybe the ecu transfers the total into a % and goes from there. IDK. 22-25 is the trigger point regardless.
no one is selling dirty and unbalanced. They are selling clean and unbalanced. TO balance they need a bigger batch. Lets not go there. It doesn't matter. IF you want balanced injectors you need to go to the aftermarket cleaners, you need to call them. People should just realize what they're doing. That's the only point I'd try to make.
show me the clean and balanced 4.7 injector add for cheap money.
no one is selling dirty and unbalanced. They are selling clean and unbalanced. TO balance they need a bigger batch. Lets not go there. It doesn't matter. IF you want balanced injectors you need to go to the aftermarket cleaners, you need to call them. People should just realize what they're doing. That's the only point I'd try to make.
show me the clean and balanced 4.7 injector add for cheap money.
Well I got 12 of these 12-hole injectors and the local fuel injector servicing company will flow test them at low and high pressure, and at 25% and 75% duty cycle, and write up a report showing the precise flow rate for each injector for only $5 per injector. Then I can take my most matched 8 from the 12 and the most matched sets of 4 for each bank.
That's pretty cheap considering I got 12 injectors for $120 and another $60 for flow benching. Will at least tell me what I got to work with.
That's pretty cheap considering I got 12 injectors for $120 and another $60 for flow benching. Will at least tell me what I got to work with.
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2001LC
SILVER Star
Pointing to thread I started, is interesting! To draw a conclusion our 4 hole denso "aren't that great", form it, is not a fair assessment IMHO. Nor does it speak to the benefit a 12 hole may or may not give.
The 3 injector you noted as "very poor spray patterns" actually were just a little off prefect spray pattern. Chuck at FIS rejects more injectors for less than perfect spray pattern than anyone AFAIK, he's very keen on perfect spray pattern. Also the engine they came from was a high mileage (215K), and indication from PO was it sat for extended periods (3 months at a time or longer) in the last few years they owned it.
I've used FIS for more sets of injectors than I've posted about in mud. What I've learned is in most cases, the injector did need servicing. Not that Denso 4 holes "aren't that great" as you imply. They do get leaky, dirty or needles rust as any injector may.
I'll also mention one set, recently had FIS service; They tested fine after cleaning, but 3 injector were totally clogged (pre cleaning test). That engine hadn't run in over 2 years. Point being, even a low mileage engine may have injectors in need of testing & cleaning. In fact, a low mileage that sits for extended periods may needed it more that a higher mileage used daily. When they sit moisture that "may" be present, has time to rust needles and micro impurities have time to form despot is the theory I have. Also if an injector is leaking down (which FSM allows for some leak down) they can sit empty of fuel, which we see a hard start condition (long crank) from. This emptying can leave needles exposed to oxygen leading to rust.
Your, not testing, the old factory injectors, gave me pause. Don't get me wrong I applaud your works and appreciating your reporting with this thread.
Jerry I commend your unbiased deductive reasoning. My limited understanding of fuel trims is the negative reads would indicate they were running rich (excessive raw fuel) and ECM was working hard (-18) to lean.
Could it be our fuel systems (fuel pump, dampening device, fuel pressure regulator, ECM, A/F, etc.) just aren't handling extra fuel flow these 12 holes may be dumping?
Could be the injector you sent back were chinese junk?
Could be they needed servicing?
When I looked on ebay, I saw many that were from China (sellers) those I wouldn't waste my money on. Some were just recycled from newer Toyota's engines, which IMHO would need flow testing at minimum before use. Other claim to be rebuilt, but I'd be concerned on how long they sat on shelf exposed to oxygen after cleaning.
A note: FIS has had some issues with the "Standard" made Denso FI, that cleaning clears up. I paid FIS ~$40 each to for a new set and too have them serviced (purchased, cleaned, rebuilt and tested). FIS said to me; a new Denso FI can sit on the shelf indefinitely and are good to go without servicing first. But once he cleans, they need to be used within 30 days. So a set of 12 hole, advertised as "cleaned & balanced". Will, I'd want a date on when.
Note: To preserve old injector's I've setting on the self, I pack in ATF. This helps keep oxygen from rusting needles.
Doesn't fuel system (ECM) start at last know condition at shut down, then adjust trims moments after starter up on a warmed up engine. Wouldn't his lean trim readings indicate they were spraying to much fuel (rich condition). Could it be 12 hole has a higher fuel flow rate then we can handle!
Why Toyota engineers didn't use 6, 8, or 12 hole for our 100 series IDK. They have now adopted 12s in newer models, so they obviously see a benefit. I'm generally just pure stock with the 2UZ-fe. But if a set of junk yards 12 holes cleaned rebuild & tested improves performance (power & MPG) without any long term damage to combustion chamber or downstream, I'm interested. My concern is with flow rate being "possibly" higher than 2UZ may be designed to handle, which could lead to long term issues.
Without me going back and reviewing the thread. Did you post picture of your trims and what they look like before & after?
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Spending money on parts that I don't plan on using is a waste of money. I offered them to you if you want to spend the $60 to have them tested by FIS. I will likely be testing my new, rebuilt injectors at FIS for their $5 per rate. Seems like a good deal. Also my injectors were serviced and shipped to me all in the same week to ease your concerns.
No you have that backwards. Unburnt fuel in the exhaust will be read as a lean condition, not a rich condition. O2 sensor can only read burnt fuel, not raw fuel.
Well, read my posts in this thread again. Stock injectors are 275cc at 3 bar. My replacements are 250cc at 3 bar, 25cc less. Overfuelling is not a concern and I have installed an AFR gauge to prove it. Video located a page or two back in this very thread.
However, you didn't really answer my question. What were the injectors advertised as?
Were they advertised as "cleaned and balanced" or not? NOT, as no one will on ebay. They will only say reconditioned, but not balanced, you know this.
Were they used or new? this doesn't even need an answer, NO ONE is selling new 12 hole injectors for a 4.7, again, show me the add.
What is your fuel trim with the stock injectors? I showed on one bank stock in the pic already.
Condition of O2 sensors so you know the trim is legitimate? equal wide band data isn't good enough? even the narrows are equal.
Spark plugs and coils? I get dumbing it down, but no, not here.
Spark plugs haven't come loose on one bank? absolutely not.
the seller I bought from is usqualityautoparts.
I know you're looking for a fault, I did to. Just didn't find one. Show me the add for clean balanced injectors, I'd buy them
Were they advertised as "cleaned and balanced" or not? NOT, as no one will on ebay. They will only say reconditioned, but not balanced, you know this.
Were they used or new? this doesn't even need an answer, NO ONE is selling new 12 hole injectors for a 4.7, again, show me the add.
What is your fuel trim with the stock injectors? I showed on one bank stock in the pic already.
Condition of O2 sensors so you know the trim is legitimate? equal wide band data isn't good enough? even the narrows are equal.
Spark plugs and coils? I get dumbing it down, but no, not here.
Spark plugs haven't come loose on one bank? absolutely not.
the seller I bought from is usqualityautoparts.
I know you're looking for a fault, I did to. Just didn't find one. Show me the add for clean balanced injectors, I'd buy them
Seriously!! What is up with this forum???? Nobody READS anything!!!
I purchased my injectors with this description:
"
6 Flow Matched Fuel Injectors Per Order
Please note injector color may vary - Blue or Pink
Lifetime Warranty, Unlimited Miles
Reconditioned in the USA using genuine brand names (Bosch, Denso, Delphi, Siemens, etc). No cheap knockoffs.
Reconditioning Process:
Link to ad *Lifetime Warranty* 3.3L 3.0L V6 OEM Fuel Injector Set of 6 | eBay
Thanks for playing.
I purchased my injectors with this description:
"
6 Flow Matched Fuel Injectors Per Order
Please note injector color may vary - Blue or Pink
Lifetime Warranty, Unlimited Miles
Reconditioned in the USA using genuine brand names (Bosch, Denso, Delphi, Siemens, etc). No cheap knockoffs.
Reconditioning Process:
- Thorough Electrical Inspection to verify resistance is within specs
- Disassemble and externally clean injectors
- Internally clean via numerous ultrasonic baths while activating injectors using special solutions
- Back-flush to remove any internal debris left behind (multi-step process)
- Flow test injectors and gather data. If injectors are not back up to specs, the previous 2 steps are performed until we achieve the results we’re looking for. Depending on their condition some fuel injectors may spend up to 8 hours in ultrasonic baths.
- Once injectors are back up to OE specifications they are then lubricated to extend shelf life
- Injectors are reassembled with new OEM high quality components (seals, 0-rings, caps, filters etc..)
- For quality assurance, injectors are flow tested one last time before being shipped
Link to ad *Lifetime Warranty* 3.3L 3.0L V6 OEM Fuel Injector Set of 6 | eBay
Thanks for playing.
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dude, your balanced thing isn't even in the description. BALANCED. you need a bigger batch to get a matched, balanced set. IN the end that has nothing to do whats being talked about here.
You would be very hard pressed to buy balanced injectors from any ebay selller. You need to go to the source.
ALL re sells of injectors are cleaned, some are balanced, you'd have to call the cleaners.
IF you have proof post it- flow rates against a batch, if you have fuel trims after a 30 mile drive and 10000 ignition events, post it. AFR data from a single wide band doesn't work, and shouldn't. The same questions you asked me would be asked of you, plugs coils, wide bands etc. You can't argue injectors online.
If you have wideband data from both banks post it. In this vehicle the ecm is going to adjust lambda no matter what to the fullest extent. You know this. No matter what you do on the front end, what comes out the back is going to be relatively equal across all 100s series.
thanks for playing my ass
You would be very hard pressed to buy balanced injectors from any ebay selller. You need to go to the source.
ALL re sells of injectors are cleaned, some are balanced, you'd have to call the cleaners.
IF you have proof post it- flow rates against a batch, if you have fuel trims after a 30 mile drive and 10000 ignition events, post it. AFR data from a single wide band doesn't work, and shouldn't. The same questions you asked me would be asked of you, plugs coils, wide bands etc. You can't argue injectors online.
If you have wideband data from both banks post it. In this vehicle the ecm is going to adjust lambda no matter what to the fullest extent. You know this. No matter what you do on the front end, what comes out the back is going to be relatively equal across all 100s series.
thanks for playing my ass
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It says it right here "Flow Matched Fuel Injectors" did you miss that...again?
They are balanced to OEM tolerance, not motorsports tolerance. At least according to the ad. I have stated I will be getting them flow rate tested by FIS...did you miss that?
Or just buy one that says "Flow Matched Fuel Injectors" in the title?
Ok.
But you used fuel trims which is based on a bank of cylinders and not individual cylinders?
You are 100% correct which is why I asked about your spark plugs and coils. On the 100 series it is a commonly known fact that the spark plugs come loose over time. I checked my truck 2 weeks ago and 3 plugs were loose where I could remove them with my fingers. 2 loose plugs on the passenger side and 1 loose plug on the driver's side would cause an unbalance unrelated to fuel injectors, do you agree? If so then when was the last time you checked your plugs?
Also my wideband experience is purely to see how the engine runs at WOT, in open-loop, and was in response to a completely different poster with a completely different concern.
Now we've got a good rally going on the game is just getting fun!
