Another 100 Tranny Gone? 2002 96K HELP!

[Cypher]

I agree, everything read in threads such as this one should be analyzed with care and consideration for the health and safety of anyone troubleshooting the vehicle. Not to mention consideration for that which may in the end, damage the vehicle further. I understand this clearly and hope that all who frequent this great forum understand as well. If you are not comfortable with working on or troubleshooting your vehicle, and are not fully aware of the dangers of doing so and how to mitigate them, as previously mentioned, you need to just take your rig to someone who does. That being said, I am aware of these dangers and take precautions not mentioned in this thread by others or myself to ensure my safety and that of those around me. I know my way around a vehicle but do not claim to be an expert. I look towards the members of this forum to give suggestions, provide ideas, and help with that which I may not have thought of. The great knowledgeable folks on Mud have helped me immensely in the past, saved me money in the past, and will undoubtedly do so again this time. For that I extend a sincere thank you and firm handshake to all those who have posted up and helped out!

 

[Cypher]

^^^ Ok now since that is out of the way, let's get back to it!

Yesterday, was a long day, but I did get about 1 hr of time with the Cruiser which is located in a secure tow storage lot. After my troubleshooting I am 99% positive it is the torque converter, something related to the torque converter, or other component in the bell housing.

1. I am not sure why the night of the failure I thought that the park pawl was not working properly (remember my comment about cold hungry tired kids, a worried , and 27 degree temps? Yea...). I confirmed yesterday that park is indeed working and holding the vehicle consistently without issue. That rules our anything down stream of the park pawl including the t-case, drive shafts, differentials, and axle shafts. The AT/P light comes on as expected when the t-case is shifted to neutral and turns off when placed in High or Low gear. It was a little slow at times turning off, but this has been seen before.
2. The drive train did not have any more slack than it did prior to the failure.
3. Again confirmed that the truck rolls smoothly in any gear other than park with no noises or issues.
4. I checked all linkages to the transmission and t-case and they are working as expected.
5. I checked all electronic connectors to the transmission and t-case, cleaning each as best as I could. This did not affect the situation.
6. The transmission fluid looks good, is at an acceptable level, and did not smell or look burnt.
7. There are no signs of leaks or issues visually.
8. The engine starts without issue and idles without issue. However, you can distinctly tell that the engine is not placed under any type of resistance what so ever. The engine revs up with even more ease than before the failure and the RPMs drop slower than normal as if there is zero resistance. Again supporting my perception that the engine seems to be completely disconnected from the drive train.
9. The bell housing is emitting a constant whine/vibration sound that is accompanied by the "thunk/thud" sound I described in an earlier post. I would compare the "thunk/thud" to that which you would hear if you struck the bell housing with a non-marring hard plastic mallet. During my troubleshooting session this "thunk/thud" did not dissipate as it did the night of the failure. At higher than idle RPMs, you can tell something in the bell housing does not sound good or smooth. This also correlates with whine sound that was coming from the bell housing previously that would go away once the truck was warmed up.

Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?

I will get the truck back on Thursday at which point I will attempt to determine if the work is something I am comfortable with doing myself, or if I want to send it to a shop. I have done a torque converter before but that was on a late 70's vehicle and I am sure this one is gonna be significantly different.

Also, as soon as the repairs begin and it is confirmed not to be the transmission and that the transmission was not damaged due to the potential failure of the torque converter, I will change the title of this thread to avoid alarming other readers at a later time.

Again, thank you everyone!

 

[scottm]

When the dealer replaced my perfectly good torque converter under warranty they said it was costing them $2000. I usually spend a weekend and $500 to do a job the dealer calls a $2000 job, hopefully that will hold true here. Good luck!

 

[Cypher]

When the dealer replaced my perfectly good torque converter under warranty they said it was costing them $2000. I usually spend a weekend and $500 to do a job the dealer calls a $2000 job, hopefully that will hold true here. Good luck!

That is a measurement I have seen to be true in the past as well. I will make a decision sometime next week after I have the truck back and some time to think about my options.

 

[TheFuzz]

Well, I'm feeling a little bit more confident about my "semi-edumuhcated" guess now that we have the parking pawl ruled out. This is looking much better than it was before, so I'm rather interested in how this ends up.

Any idea when you'll be able to get it into a shop? Also, not to beat an obviously dead horse, but I'd advise against running the engine any more until they determine what actually is causing the noise - if something is slapping against the bell housing, you could be gouging the inside of it. Not likely, but possible.

 

[Cypher]

Well, I'm feeling a little bit more confident about my "semi-edumuhcated" guess now that we have the parking pawl ruled out. This is looking much better than it was before, so I'm rather interested in how this ends up.

Any idea when you'll be able to get it into a shop? Also, not to beat an obviously dead horse, but I'd advise against running the engine any more until they determine what actually is causing the noise - if something is slapping against the bell housing, you could be gouging the inside of it. Not likely, but possible.

Yea, no more running the engine... There isn't any reason at this point to start the engine. I am thinking either I will have it torn apart in about a week or in a shop. Thanks again!

 

[Bawlz]

Glad to hear that you pinpointed the issue!

Now onto the fun decision, lol.

If you are comfortable R+R-ing the trans, and you pull the converter out to find the issue is contained therein, you can head to a friendly local transmission shop with your broken converter in hand, and have them order one up from a local converter shop (they will need your core for exchange, and it's good to have when they order to make sure they are giving you the correct one).

But, if you go through the trouble of pulling the trans, and find that there is an issue with the trans itself, you can head to that same friendly local transmission shop and have them fix it, saving you R+R labor costs (not sure what the billable hours is for R+R-ing a 100 trans).

It sounds as if it's the converter though, based on where the noise is.

Let us know what you decide to do!

PS. Hope I didn't add too much drama llama to your thread.

 

[Cypher]

Glad to hear that you pinpointed the issue!

Now onto the fun decision, lol.

If you are comfortable R+R-ing the trans, and you pull the converter out to find the issue is contained therein, you can head to a friendly local transmission shop with your broken converter in hand, and have them order one up from a local converter shop (they will need your core for exchange, and it's good to have when they order to make sure they are giving you the correct one).

But, if you go through the trouble of pulling the trans, and find that there is an issue with the trans itself, you can head to that same friendly local transmission shop and have them fix it, saving you R+R labor costs (not sure what the billable hours is for R+R-ing a 100 trans).

It sounds as if it's the converter though, based on where the noise is.

Let us know what you decide to do!

PS. Hope I didn't add too much drama llama to your thread.

No drama llama here... No problem...

I am looking at the FSM to to determine the amount of work and then I will compare this to the 100 when it gets here. Then decide if I am comfortable with doing the work myself or not.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Tools R Us]

^^^ Ok now since that is out of the way, let's get back to it!

Yesterday, was a long day, but I did get about 1 hr of time with the Cruiser which is located in a secure tow storage lot. After my troubleshooting I am 99% positive it is the torque converter, something related to the torque converter, or other component in the bell housing.

1. I am not sure why the night of the failure I thought that the park pawl was not working properly (remember my comment about cold hungry tired kids, a worried , and 27 degree temps? Yea...). I confirmed yesterday that park is indeed working and holding the vehicle consistently without issue. That rules our anything down stream of the park pawl including the t-case, drive shafts, differentials, and axle shafts. The AT/P light comes on as expected when the t-case is shifted to neutral and turns off when placed in High or Low gear. It was a little slow at times turning off, but this has been seen before.
2. The drive train did not have any more slack than it did prior to the failure.
3. Again confirmed that the truck rolls smoothly in any gear other than park with no noises or issues.
4. I checked all linkages to the transmission and t-case and they are working as expected.
5. I checked all electronic connectors to the transmission and t-case, cleaning each as best as I could. This did not affect the situation.
6. The transmission fluid looks good, is at an acceptable level, and did not smell or look burnt.
7. There are no signs of leaks or issues visually.
8. The engine starts without issue and idles without issue. However, you can distinctly tell that the engine is not placed under any type of resistance what so ever. The engine revs up with even more ease than before the failure and the RPMs drop slower than normal as if there is zero resistance. Again supporting my perception that the engine seems to be completely disconnected from the drive train.
9. The bell housing is emitting a constant whine/vibration sound that is accompanied by the "thunk/thud" sound I described in an earlier post. I would compare the "thunk/thud" to that which you would hear if you struck the bell housing with a non-marring hard plastic mallet. During my troubleshooting session this "thunk/thud" did not dissipate as it did the night of the failure. At higher than idle RPMs, you can tell something in the bell housing does not sound good or smooth. This also correlates with whine sound that was coming from the bell housing previously that would go away once the truck was warmed up.

Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?

I will get the truck back on Thursday at which point I will attempt to determine if the work is something I am comfortable with doing myself, or if I want to send it to a shop. I have done a torque converter before but that was on a late 70's vehicle and I am sure this one is gonna be significantly different.

Also, as soon as the repairs begin and it is confirmed not to be the transmission and that the transmission was not damaged due to the potential failure of the torque converter, I will change the title of this thread to avoid alarming other readers at a later time.

Again, thank you everyone!

Well, that changes everything. My first check would be to remove the bell housing inspection panel and check the torque converter bolts. Have seen them back out and/of shear off. If this is it, it is likely the trans still has to come out, often buggers the flex plate and torque converter bolt holes. Also, could be the torque converter and/or trans input shaft(s) failure.

 

[Cypher]

Well, that changes everything. My first check would be to remove the bell housing inspection panel and check the torque converter bolts. Have seen them back out and/of shear off. If this is it, it is likely the trans still has to come out, often buggers the flex plate and torque converter bolt holes. Also, could be the torque converter and/or trans input shaft(s) failure.

Yea I am expecting to have to drop the tranny regardless. That is a good thing to check. I was going to take off the inspection plate when I had some time with the 100, but opted to check then when I get it home and have a bit more time. Thanks Kevin!

 

[campoj2]

Take pictures and document the of the removal and installation of the transmission. It could possibly help the rest of us if we need to go down this road at a later date.

 

[Cypher]

Take pictures and document the of the removal and installation of the transmission. It could possibly help the rest of us if we need to go down this road at a later date.

Heck yea! If I decide to do the work myself, it will be well documented.

 

[Copenhagen1]

Any breaking news on this?

 

[Girlslovedirt]

Cypher I'm sorry to hear about what happen to you during the holiday season. Total bummer I hope you get it all worked out.

I had a question for you. I was reading your how to drain/fill your xfer case and noticed this happen to you not to long after you did the maintenance. My question is, do you think refilling your xfercase with the syn mobil 1 had any thing do do with this?

 

[Skidoo]

Too many others use M1 or other syn's, so don't think so. Also his last troubleshooting was pointing to trans (TC), not t-case.

 

[Cypher]

Any breaking news on this?

Read below...

Cypher I'm sorry to hear about what happen to you during the holiday season. Total bummer I hope you get it all worked out.

I had a question for you. I was reading your how to drain/fill your xfer case and noticed this happen to you not to long after you did the maintenance. My question is, do you think refilling your xfercase with the syn mobil 1 had any thing do do with this?

No, I am positive this failure had nothing to do with the t-case fluid change. In fact, based on my troubleshooting, I have confirmed that the t-case is working just fine without issue. Thanks for posting up!





Alright, so I have been doing a bit more troubleshooting and figured a few things out. I talked with Eric (aka Murf here on Mud, great guy!) @ Camelback Toyota and he spoke with one of his techs and they asked me to check the transmission fluid before starting the vehicle, then start the vehicle and check the level once again. This test would determine if the forward transmission fluid pump is working. The level was significantly lower after starting the vehicle, thus indicating the pump is working as expected, which is a good thing. However, upon checking the level before the start, I took note of the fact that the level was EXTREMELY high. As in nearly a full 2.5-2.75 inches above the "high" mark on the dip stick. The truck has been sitting now for 2 weeks, but I can't think of a logical reason why the fluid level is so much higher than I have ever seen it before. It is parking on a slight downslope towards the front of the truck, but I have checked the transmission fluid level before with the truck in the same position and the level has never been this high. Thoughts?

Also, today after starting the truck, I decided the cycle through the gears just to see if there was any difference, and guess what, THERE WAS! The truck now seems to react slightly to the different gears, specifically park, reverse, neutral, and drive. The RPMs seem to drop slightly when in an actual gear and raise when in neutral and park. This of course is expected behavior for a working vehicle. However, the truck still does not want to move a single inch in any gear.

Lastly, the "knocking" sound coming from the bell housing that I described earlier is very consistent now. In fact I listened to it for sometime while the engine sat idling and came to realize that it sounds more like something in the bell housing is wobbling during rotation rather than something physically knocking on a hard surface. Again, this makes me think torque converter.

I should be doing something about this in the coming week, so there will be more info to come soon. Thanks again guys!

 

[TheFuzz]

Based on my (extremely) limited knowledge of torque converters, I know that they can hold several quarts of fluid at any given time...right?

I'm thinking that something grenaded in the TC (the stator maybe?), thereby blocking fluid from entering, thereby not giving the TC any force to spin and engage the rest of the transmission to move the vehicle.

That totally made sense in my head before I typed it, lol.

Do you kinda see where I'm coming from though? The TC requires fluid to spin the output shaft and move the trans, which moves the car...so if the fluid passages into the TC were somehow blocked, the TC would remain dry and have no force applied to the output shaft to spin the transmission. This would explain the abnormally high fluid level in the trans (since nothing is being held in the TC), and the sound you are hearing is probably attributed to whatever gave out in the TC. The flywheel is probably spinning the TC itself, but whatever gave out is just flopping around in there instead of moving fluid.


Just a very confused guess, of course.

 

[agaisin]

I'm coming in late to the thread here but I believe too much (as in way too much) trans fluid could give similar symptoms to low/no trans fluid. Sorry if I'm being captain obvious but if your dipstick is indicating extremely high, is it possible that you need to drain fluid and get it back to the correct level? Worth a shot at least?

 

[agaisin]

Also, I didn't see any references to checking for Diagnostic Trouble Codes - not sure if it's relevant but were there any codes to speak of?

 

[TheFuzz]

With the symptoms he experienced (driving then all of a sudden *poof* no gears), plus the noise in the bellhousing, I don't think it's just a simple matter of having too much fluid. Thats a condition that would rear it's head pretty quickly after you overfilled it. Just IMO, of course. I'm still going with a failure in the TC.