Aligned after 4 tries 13 LX570
Alignment Experts How Does This Look?13 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter milellie111
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Pretty sure you want slightly more caster on the passengers side to account for road crown, otherwise your steering wheel typically will be cocked left to about 11 oclock
camber should be easy to set and should be closer. If you have a lift a small amount of negative camber is ok, but if you don’t then camber should be set slightly positive. Also I can’t recall whether left or right side camber should be slightly more (right I think) but you want a tiny bit of cross-camber so if you fall asleep at the wheel the vehicle will eventually drift off the road to the right and not into oncoming traffic
As far as tire wear it is fine, but may drift left with 0.6 degrees cross camber.
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Thanks @linuxgod and @njbrain. Seems like almost impossible to get a perfect alignment from a dealer. Previous alignment from different dealer drove great but pulled hard to left on crowned left lane highways. This alignment from different dealer eliminated the pulling but feels looser up front and slightly skittish over bumps. Worth taking it back for another shot?
I don't think that alignment will cause any drivability problems as a skittish feel isn't usually noticed till 0.5 degrees camber or higher. If you are a perfectionist as I am it might be worth another shot. The left rear cam needs to be nudged to the right, and the right front cam needs to be nudged right as well. Unfortunately most people on alignment racks don't know this. The adjustment cams are not mysterious. The rear cam adjusts camber and caster equally and opposite. The front cam adjusts equally and together.
You don't have much toe-in, so that may contribute to looseness and/or skittishness. You don't need much - typically you'd want 1/32 to 1/16" toe-in, which is maybe 0.08 deg?
Dealer alignments often just try to make things green and within those center detents in the graphics and then consider it good. The techs often don't really understand the subtleties of alignments. You might need to look for a serious alignment shop in your area, maybe one that does race cars, if you notice the handling difference and want it done "right"
Side note: I run about 3.7-3.8 degrees of caster - more positive caster helps steering feel tight and keeps the truck from wandering but it also makes the steering sometimes feel heavy... your 3 degrees should be fine there.
Dealer alignments often just try to make things green and within those center detents in the graphics and then consider it good. The techs often don't really understand the subtleties of alignments. You might need to look for a serious alignment shop in your area, maybe one that does race cars, if you notice the handling difference and want it done "right"
Side note: I run about 3.7-3.8 degrees of caster - more positive caster helps steering feel tight and keeps the truck from wandering but it also makes the steering sometimes feel heavy... your 3 degrees should be fine there.
Alignment appointment tomorrow morning, so this is timely for me. I'm going to ask for zero camber, as opposed to the visibly positive camber I have now. As I've written elsewhere on Mud, I have never seen positive front camber as a recommended spec before, even on non-performance vehicles, so I am 100% ignorant as to the rationale. Do you have an explanation for the "why" to which you could point me / us? Many thanks
I'm no expert, but substitute "recreational vehicle" with "big lifted truck with heavy tires". That said I don't think where camber is set makes as big a difference as whether it's equal on both sides or significantly off. -0.3deg on both sides or +0.5deg on both sides are both better than -0.3deg on one side and +0.5 deg on the other.
oards.com
"If the wheels have a negative camber, it means the tops of the front wheels are inclining to the side toward the center of the vehicle’s frame. If the wheels have a positive camber, it means the tops of the front wheels are inclining toward the outside and away from the center of the chassis.
The importance of the camber angle has to do with how stable it makes the vehicle on the road, particularly when making turns around corners. The general consensus is that a positive camber is good for keeping a recreational vehicle stable, while a negative camber is better for allowing high-performance vehicles to turn corners faster and more accurately."
What is Camber? (Positive and Negative Camber Effects)
The camber angle is one of three measurements used in a wheel alignment. Here's what positive and negative camber look like and what they accomplish...
oards.com
"If the wheels have a negative camber, it means the tops of the front wheels are inclining to the side toward the center of the vehicle’s frame. If the wheels have a positive camber, it means the tops of the front wheels are inclining toward the outside and away from the center of the chassis.
The importance of the camber angle has to do with how stable it makes the vehicle on the road, particularly when making turns around corners. The general consensus is that a positive camber is good for keeping a recreational vehicle stable, while a negative camber is better for allowing high-performance vehicles to turn corners faster and more accurately."
Thanks. I've been doing some research online - there are definitely reports of a stability benefit to positive front camber. There's also a complicated interaction between static camber and the various directional loads when cornering, suspension stiffness/softness, roll centers, caster, toe, wheel diameter, sidewall stiffness, etc. Also, in the bias-ply days, it was apparently beneficial and used on race cars, so I definitely stand corrected / educated there. (NASCAR / banked oval track race cars are of course a different breed with regard to camber and alignment more broadly.)
A few of the more interesting links here:
Camber: What Does It Do? – DRIFTIN' DONUTS - https://driftindonuts.com/camber-what-does-it-do/
Camber: What Is It And How much you should keep? | BAJA Tutor - https://bajatutor.net/camber-much-keep/
Off-road tyre modelling II: effect of camber on tyre performance - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022489898000329
Influence of Camber Angle on Rolling Radial Tire under Braking State - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705811023101
Learn Camber, Caster, and Toe | Suspension Alignments - https://www.comeanddriveit.com/suspension/camber-caster-toe
Definitely a complicated engineering optimization problem, across multiple use cases, multiple possible load, surface, speed and grip scenarios. I trust that Toyota, with all of their combined engineering and production experience, got it right with their specs...although I still "feel" that my use case (mall cruiser & highways, some rain/sleet/snow plus some oversand) would probably warrant bias towards "highway" settings versus off-road settings.
In any case, I took my LC in for an alignment this morning to a well-recommended local tire shop, and asked them to get to zero front camber. The initial response was they would try, but they wouldn't go outside of the range of whatever their alignment software indicated for my year/make/model/VIN. The end result: they said they did their best, but couldn't get all the way to zero camber. The report is printed below.
Interesting that (1) my toe was negative and therefore out of spec versus their "specified range" values in their software for my 2018 LC200, and (2) their "specified range" for camber was/is -0.4 to +1.2 degrees. I thought the lowest camber figure from Toyota was zero, rather than -0.4 degrees. Do these recommended ranges, and/or the end values, look blatantly wrong to anyone?
Maybe the wrong toe settings were causing some of my uneasiness and understeer when loaded?
I've only driven the LC about 5 miles since, and not on the highway yet, so too early to give any kind of seat of the pants report.
A few of the more interesting links here:
Camber: What Does It Do? – DRIFTIN' DONUTS - https://driftindonuts.com/camber-what-does-it-do/
Camber: What Is It And How much you should keep? | BAJA Tutor - https://bajatutor.net/camber-much-keep/
Off-road tyre modelling II: effect of camber on tyre performance - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022489898000329
Influence of Camber Angle on Rolling Radial Tire under Braking State - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705811023101
Learn Camber, Caster, and Toe | Suspension Alignments - https://www.comeanddriveit.com/suspension/camber-caster-toe
Definitely a complicated engineering optimization problem, across multiple use cases, multiple possible load, surface, speed and grip scenarios. I trust that Toyota, with all of their combined engineering and production experience, got it right with their specs...although I still "feel" that my use case (mall cruiser & highways, some rain/sleet/snow plus some oversand) would probably warrant bias towards "highway" settings versus off-road settings.
In any case, I took my LC in for an alignment this morning to a well-recommended local tire shop, and asked them to get to zero front camber. The initial response was they would try, but they wouldn't go outside of the range of whatever their alignment software indicated for my year/make/model/VIN. The end result: they said they did their best, but couldn't get all the way to zero camber. The report is printed below.
Interesting that (1) my toe was negative and therefore out of spec versus their "specified range" values in their software for my 2018 LC200, and (2) their "specified range" for camber was/is -0.4 to +1.2 degrees. I thought the lowest camber figure from Toyota was zero, rather than -0.4 degrees. Do these recommended ranges, and/or the end values, look blatantly wrong to anyone?
Maybe the wrong toe settings were causing some of my uneasiness and understeer when loaded?
I've only driven the LC about 5 miles since, and not on the highway yet, so too early to give any kind of seat of the pants report.
Your final specs look pretty good to me, as do their specified ranges, at least for my 2013.
Keep in mind when they do an alignment, they really need to roll the truck off the rack and then back onto it to ensure the components aren't binding up and everything is "static". Very few shops do this so it's typical that your final numbers can vary a little from whatever was originally set. I'm surprised toe was slightly negative but given how far off camber was previously (left-to-right) I'm not shocked something was off
Keep in mind when they do an alignment, they really need to roll the truck off the rack and then back onto it to ensure the components aren't binding up and everything is "static". Very few shops do this so it's typical that your final numbers can vary a little from whatever was originally set. I'm surprised toe was slightly negative but given how far off camber was previously (left-to-right) I'm not shocked something was off
This is such a missed point with any lift. You need a guru to align a lifted truck. They know every subtle thing. Like what size tires you are running and will ask "well how do actually use it 85% of the time." Same truck that never hits the tarmac and is for offroad only will have different numbers than a DD.
Dealers or your local shop don't have the experience to deal with unique situations. So many posts about UCA's that are "adjustable" but set from the factory and provided as a kit from the suspension company.
"No your wrong. they sent me the UCA in a kit with the 3 degrees preset. Its adjustable." Not really its locked at that position. Every vehicle has nuances. Thats why when you take it to a dealer or regular indy shop they can't get it right 100%. Sure it will cost you more than 2x to have it aligned with a specialist, you will wait a month or more, but when the ride is horrible and you start replacing tyres on the regular your losing money. Penny wise pound poor.
Thanks to this post I was able to get my alignment shop to try harder to get me in specs…
First try a month or so ago… it felt very squiggly and light to steer… caster was way too low and they had told me it would not impact wear or straight line (but didn’t mention steering issues)
Today after having a chat…. Feels much better
First try a month or so ago… it felt very squiggly and light to steer… caster was way too low and they had told me it would not impact wear or straight line (but didn’t mention steering issues)
Today after having a chat…. Feels much better
Nice. Those settings should be pretty good.
Typically shops set up a small bit of cross-caster and cross-camber to account for the road crown. Cross-caster is so you don't feel like you're always holding the wheel at 11 o'clock to go straight, but how much (or whether to bother) depends on how the local roads are built and not every shop does this. Cross-camber IIRC is so if you fall asleep at the wheel you will slowly drift to the right shoulder instead of into incoming traffic.
If you feel like you still wander on the highway at all, or that you need to continually make minor adjustments to keep in your lane, you can push caster a full degree more and still be within spec. I run at 3.8 deg (which is a hair over spec) and I can drive down the highway hands-off the wheel. Note that very high caster will wear the edges of the tires a bit more when turning, and you eventually risk contact with the KDSS arm and sway bar once you run 34"+ tires, but it's an option.
PSA:
LX camber adjustment needs to be done to LX specs because it will lower significantly at 65 mph, the speed and distances which will also contribute most to tire wear.
If you are lifted it needs to get aligned at a custom shop by an experienced
tech.
AHC is a wholly different suspension and needs careful consideration in all things.
LX camber adjustment needs to be done to LX specs because it will lower significantly at 65 mph, the speed and distances which will also contribute most to tire wear.
If you are lifted it needs to get aligned at a custom shop by an experienced
tech.
AHC is a wholly different suspension and needs careful consideration in all things.
True, the LX specs call for more caster and less camber. The mid point of their settings are both within the range of the other though so it's not yuuuugely different
| LC fully optioned and unloaded | LX with AHC and unloaded | |
| Camber | 0°17' +/-45' (0.28° +/-0.75°) | 0°00' +/-45' (0.00° +/-0.75°) |
| Caster | 2°56' +/-45' (2.93° +/-0.75°) | 3°22' +/-45' (3.37° +/-0.75°) |
| SAI | 12°43' (12.71°) | 13°00' (13.00°) |
| Total Toe | 3 +/-2 mm (0.118 +/-0.0787 in.) | 0 +/-2 mm (0 +/-0.0787 in.) |
