92 FJ80: “For my next trick, I’ll produce electrical problems out of thin air!”

[BlutoF15]

Stock 80, no car alarm, etc. Only oddity is an aftermarket stereo, and the hazards blink when any door except the drivers is opened. Been that way since I bought it, no issues.

She slowly starts not holding a charge, battery is clearly old. So I replace it. A week or so later, dead. When I reinstall the new battery after I took it home and topped it off, I get a small spark and a little smoke from the fusible link. Uh oh…. Starts fine, away I go.

A week later, battery is dead. I suspect the alternator, remove it and have it tested, yup. New alternator goes in and I get a new fusible link. No damage when I disassembled it, but it looks original, age-wise. So, a new one goes on.

New alternator, new fusible link, reconnect batter - same spark, puff of smoke as before, except now it won’t start. Lights, accessories work fine, cranks fine, just won’t start.

All of the previous threads I can find point to PO shenanigans with not stock fusible links, or aftermarket add ins like car alarms, etc.

I’m stumped. Mechanical I can do, electrical is black magic voodoo BS created somewhere around Dante’s 7th circle of hell.

Ideas?

 

[jonheld]

Stock 80, no car alarm, etc. Only oddity is an aftermarket stereo, and the hazards blink when any door except the drivers is opened. Been that way since I bought it, no issues.

She slowly starts not holding a charge, battery is clearly old. So I replace it. A week or so later, dead. When I reinstall the new battery after I took it home and topped it off, I get a small spark and a little smoke from the fusible link. Uh oh…. Starts fine, away I go.

A week later, battery is dead. I suspect the alternator, remove it and have it tested, yup. New alternator goes in and I get a new fusible link. No damage when I disassembled it, but it looks original, age-wise. So, a new one goes on.

New alternator, new fusible link, reconnect batter - same spark, puff of smoke as before, except now it won’t start. Lights, accessories work fine, cranks fine, just won’t start.

All of the previous threads I can find point to PO shenanigans with not stock fusible links, or aftermarket add ins like car alarms, etc.

I’m stumped. Mechanical I can do, electrical is black magic voodoo BS created somewhere around Dante’s 7th circle of hell.

Ideas?

A few thoughts in no particular order.
There will always be a SMALL spark when hooking up a battery as there is always some small draw (between 20-30mA) with everything off.
HOWEVER, it is not typical to have any puffs of smoke from ANYTHING...EVER. You obviously have some issues going on.

You can't verify the condition of fusible links with your eyeballs. Always use a meter.
A cursory check of all 3 fusible links in system. This assumes an unmolested OEM configuration.
FL AM1 - Dome lights working?
FL AM2 - When you turn the key to ON does the CHARGE LAMP light up?
FL MAIN - Brake lights working?
If yes to all 3, then all 3 fusible links are intact.

If the CHECK engine light is not illuminated with the key in the ON/RUN position BEFORE cranking the starter, this engine will not fire.

The first thing I would do is remove any PO wiring that has been installed.

The dome lights and flasher relay share a ground point "ID"(left kick panel bolt). It sounds like there is some sort of ground loop happening. Possibly a loose or disconnected ground.

It also sounds like there is a parasitic draw which is draining the battery rapidly. Again, standard quiescent draw should be between 20-30mA. Anything significantly over that can indicate a problem. Again, a meter is your friend.
Each fusible link feeds a separate subsystem. You can isolate the 3 links and measure the draw of each one to help point you in the correct direction.

The Toyota factory service manual (FSM) and electronic wiring diagram (EWD) are invaluable.

 

[Broski]

A few thoughts in no particular order.
There will always be a SMALL spark when hooking up a battery as there is always some small draw (between 20-30mA) with everything off.
HOWEVER, it is not typical to have any puffs of smoke from ANYTHING...EVER. You obviously have some issues going on.

You can't verify the condition of fusible links with your eyeballs. Always use a meter.
A cursory check of all 3 fusible links in system. This assumes an unmolested OEM configuration.
FL AM1 - Dome lights working?
FL AM2 - When you turn the key to ON does the CHARGE LAMP light up?
FL MAIN - Brake lights working?
If yes to all 3, then all 3 fusible links are intact.

If the CHECK engine light is not illuminated with the key in the ON/RUN position BEFORE cranking the starter, this engine will not fire.

The first thing I would do is remove any PO wiring that has been installed.

The dome lights and flasher relay share a ground point "ID"(left kick panel bolt). It sounds like there is some sort of ground loop happening. Possibly a loose or disconnected ground.

It also sounds like there is a parasitic draw which is draining the battery rapidly. Again, standard quiescent draw should be between 20-30mA. Anything significantly over that can indicate a problem. Again, a meter is your friend.
Each fusible link feeds a separate subsystem. You can isolate the 3 links and measure the draw of each one to help point you in the correct direction.

The Toyota factory service manual (FSM) and electronic wiring diagram (EWD) are invaluable.

View attachment 3688933

As always smart and helpful !

 

[BlutoF15]

A few thoughts in no particular order.
There will always be a SMALL spark when hooking up a battery as there is always some small draw (between 20-30mA) with everything off.
HOWEVER, it is not typical to have any puffs of smoke from ANYTHING...EVER. You obviously have some issues going on.

You can't verify the condition of fusible links with your eyeballs. Always use a meter.
A cursory check of all 3 fusible links in system. This assumes an unmolested OEM configuration.
FL AM1 - Dome lights working?
FL AM2 - When you turn the key to ON does the CHARGE LAMP light up?
FL MAIN - Brake lights working?
If yes to all 3, then all 3 fusible links are intact.

If the CHECK engine light is not illuminated with the key in the ON/RUN position BEFORE cranking the starter, this engine will not fire.

The first thing I would do is remove any PO wiring that has been installed.

The dome lights and flasher relay share a ground point "ID"(left kick panel bolt). It sounds like there is some sort of ground loop happening. Possibly a loose or disconnected ground.

It also sounds like there is a parasitic draw which is draining the battery rapidly. Again, standard quiescent draw should be between 20-30mA. Anything significantly over that can indicate a problem. Again, a meter is your friend.
Each fusible link feeds a separate subsystem. You can isolate the 3 links and measure the draw of each one to help point you in the correct direction.

The Toyota factory service manual (FSM) and electronic wiring diagram (EWD) are invaluable.

View attachment 3688933

As always - the best info.

For clarity, the drain on the battery is very slow. The only issue ever (other than an ancient battery finally dying) has been after a long sit. Still, your point remains. While it isn’t fast by any means, it’s more than I think it should be. I previously chalked it up to just age.

Here’s what I do know:
- Brake lights good
-Charge light on with switch on
-starter cranks
- dome lights don’t come on, but they never have since I’ve owned the vehicle. Assumed bulb
- CEL does NOT illuminate
- problem did not surface after new battery, only after subsequently installing new alternator (although the puff of smoke from the fusible link did happen once before the alternator, with the new battery, but started and ran fine)

I do have the FSM hard copy. I’ll see what my limited electrical ability can turn up.

 

[jonheld]

As always - the best info.

For clarity, the drain on the battery is very slow. The only issue ever (other than an ancient battery finally dying) has been after a long sit. Still, your point remains. While it isn’t fast by any means, it’s more than I think it should be. I previously chalked it up to just age.

Here’s what I do know:
- Brake lights good
-Charge light on with switch on
-starter cranks
- dome lights don’t come on, but they never have since I’ve owned the vehicle. Assumed bulb
- CEL does NOT illuminate
- problem did not surface after new battery, only after subsequently installing new alternator (although the puff of smoke from the fusible link did happen once before the alternator, with the new battery, but started and ran fine)

I do have the FSM hard copy. I’ll see what my limited electrical ability can turn up.

Please read through this document.

General Tech - 3FE EFI Diagnostics

3FE EFI Diagnostics updated for 2020

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[BlutoF15]

Please read through this document.

General Tech - 3FE EFI Diagnostics

3FE EFI Diagnostics updated for 2020

forum.ih8mud.com

On it.

I was hoping the AFM was bad. No such luck.

Phillips screw in the fuse box good.

Pin 8 (+B) is like 2.5 volts. EFI fuse is good, swapped relay. No change.

 

[jonheld]

On it.

I was hoping the AFM was bad. No such luck.

Phillips screw in the fuse box good.

Pin 8 (+B) is like 2.5 volts. EFI fuse is good, swapped relay. No change.

Please verify all 3 fusible links with a meter. That is ALWAYS the first step.
Please inspect connector EB1. It runs the show for the EFI relay/ECU +12 feed.
Again, the EWD is invaluable when chasing down issues.

On the 3FE it is located in the area of the 3 VSVs mounted on the left side of the engine bay. It is a 4 pin grey connector with 3 of the 4 positions used.
Pin 2: red/yel
Pin 3: yel/red
Pin 4: red

 

[BlutoF15]

Please verify all 3 fusible links with a meter. That is ALWAYS the first step.
Please inspect connector EB1. It runs the show for the EFI relay/ECU +12 feed.
Again, the EWD is invaluable when chasing down issues.

On the 3FE it is located in the area of the 3 VSVs mounted on the left side of the engine bay. It is a 4 pin grey connector with 3 of the 4 positions used.
Pin 2: red/yel
Pin 3: yel/red
Pin 4: red

View attachment 3690040

View attachment 3690038
View attachment 3690039

Yeah, I think I just might be at the end of what I can do.

The “cursory check” mentioned for the fusible links are good as described. Charge light on, brake lights work, dome lights work (just tried again and turned them on.)

I did check the fuse box screw with the meter, but beyond that I’m pretty much out of my element. I don’t know how to check the fusible link nor the EB1 connector with the meter. (Actually, I’m not even sure how to disconnect the EB1 without breaking the housing. I’ve done that way too many times in the past.)

I did open the fusible link housing, 12v is good on the small wire. I don’t get any reading on the large wire, but it’s just as likely I’m doing it wrong as it is that there’s a problem there.



Mechanical I can do, electrical is definitely not on my list and it’s showing.

 

[BlutoF15]

Another update. Sun angle fooled me on the lights.

Brake lights do NOT work.

 

[BlutoF15]

Okay, another possible.

The new alternator has three studs/nuts on the back. From the box, it appeared readily apparent which one was the ground, is it possible it’s one of the others and this is the issue?

There’s a grand total of 1 YouTube vids with a an FJ80 alternator change - and it’s the same alternator I bought. Best I can tell, mine is installed exactly the same.

And the fusible link did smoke once with the old alternator but then ran fine until alternator replacement, so I suspect this isn’t it but willing to try about anything.

 

[jonheld]

Okay, another possible.

The new alternator has three studs/nuts on the back. From the box, it appeared readily apparent which one was the ground, is it possible it’s one of the others and this is the issue?

OK, I need you to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR on this next statement.
An alternator is grounded through the case/mounts/engine block. THERE IS NO GROUND TERMINAL ON AN ALTERNATOR.
There should be a round 3 pin connector and a single insulated ring terminal/stud. That stud is the alternator output to fusible link MAIN and battery positive.
If that terminal was grounded, then you would have popped the MAIN fusible link (the BLUE one).

 

[BlutoF15]

Tracking. I definitely called it the wrong thing.

The harness plug is installed, the single stud/ring is installed and covered.

 

[jonheld]

Tracking. I definitely called it the wrong thing.

LOL. No worries. I just wanted to be sure.

 

[BlutoF15]

LOL. No worries. I just wanted to be sure.

With me and electrical, it’s always a safe bet to double check.

Honestly if anyone remotely close knew Cruisers, I’d have already called them

 

[jonheld]

With me and electrical, it’s always a safe bet to double check.

Honestly if anyone remotely close knew Cruisers, I’d have already called them

There are 3 Florida based TLCA groups in the clubhouse section. You should reach out to them.

 

[BlutoF15]

Gave it a shot, mostly seems dead. Tried Facebook, the only recommendation was to try a different 3FE group. Not sure if any will be local. We’ll see.

Anyone know for sure which tab to depress or lift to disconnect the EB1 connector? 30 year old heat treated plastic tends to break if you guess wrong

 

[tmxmotorsports]

How close are you to @cruisermatt he has a shop in Florida.

 

[BlutoF15]

Unknown. Come on big money, no whammies…

Edit - no dice. Looks like winter Park, a short 6 hour drive. Unknown time to push it.

 

[tmxmotorsports]

Unknown. Come on big money, no whammies…

Edit - no dice. Looks like winter Park, a short 6 hour drive. Unknown time to push it.

Get to pushing

 

[BlutoF15]

It’s looking like a viable option