80-series sway bar disconnects (electronic or otherwise)

[kenton]

(Attempting to rescue an 80-series topic that was "Moved")...

Gumby wrote:
"The mags say definate increased articulation. It uses elecromagnets to pull pins and allow the bar ends to rotate without tension, I believe.

I like the idea of sleaving the bar after the bushings. Welded on one side with a through pin on the other. it would allow the ends to move up and down with the axle without transferring the movement to the bar."

First Toy wrote:
"GX470 also has the elect. disconnects so you can visit the Lexus dealer as well."

Thanks for the Info FirstToy: I didn't know about that-- I looked it up, its called KDSS and it seems to involve front and rear double-acting (two-way) hydraulic pistons, tubes going back-to-front, and more. Not sure I want to deal with that, although its a possibility.

I'm mainly interested in finding something cleanly portable to the FJ-80, and I'm thinking it's the Dodge unit. I did look at it this weekend, and although the salesman was useless, it seems to be possible to cut the middle of our swaybars in half and add these boxes. (I'm being over-simplistic, but that's the idea anyway.)

Gumby: a sleeved approach with a through-pin, hmmmm maybe. I'm thinking maybe a short lever arm might be easier/stronger? See attachment.

Kenton

p.s. by the way, who do I have to bl** to keep my posts from being "moved"? What's the criteria for moving, anyhow.

 

[Gumby]

I'm sure the problem with the move was that it started with the comments about the Ram and it's technological innovations. Whoever moved it thought the swaybar comments were tangential to the thread.

Discussing the Ram belongs in Chat. Talking about how to mimic the technology on an 80 series is for here. It's pretty hard to determine how folks are going to run with your thread once you start it.

I like the short lever arms. I wonder how much more torque those arms would see. i suppose if they were very short it wouldn't be much. I just happen to have the sway bar from my T-100 sitting on the shop floor at the moment. I'll add that to my pending projects list.

One issue the sleave might address is the bar pulling apart once it's disconnected. You could do both. Nothing says the end of the bar has to be where the levers are. What if you sleave the bar so that 3-4 inches is inside, then add the levers to the end where the bar pokes out? does that make any sense? I'm not on a computer where i can make a solid model.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Do a search on this to be aware of the amount of force you're talking about fabricating for. If I recall, it's going to be over 12,000 ft lbs of torque. Fastening to the bar would be the challenge, as it's not just mild steel but more akin to spring steel and heating will change its properties. This is not a project for the faint hearted and the one's I've seen work used mechanical fastening vs welding. Pins, or splines.

DougM

 

[IBCRUSN]

Since most if not all production sway bars are solid, why not consider fabricating some king of splined collar? Remove the OE sway bar, cut it, have spines rolled on both ends (one side twice as much as the other), then fab the sliding collar. In the end it would be easier to reconnect than something with holes. That way even if you are not on a 100% flat surface you would at least have the sway bar hooked up. One other nice plus would be not having one or both bar ends disconnected and requiring some way to secure the bar.

Kris

 

[Scamper]

Yeah, there was a whole discussion on just this topic not too long ago. I think Bill (PhotoMan) had done some early prefab work, but as ID said, there was a lot of concern about how to fasten anything to the bar without doing damage to it. The connection and components definitely becomes the weak spot in all the ideas discussed (but there were some pretty spiffy ideas mentioned).

 

[kenton]

Thanks Scamp. Unfortunately it looks like Photoman's pics from his thread are gone.

The company making KDSS for the latest GX470 (Kinetic) is supposedly going to offer an aftermarket kit. They use a complicated dual-action hydraulic cylinder so it isn't simple (and certainly expensive).

AAM makes the SmartBar, the electronic disconnect for the new Power Wagon. One of these days I'll gat a part # and a schematic of it.

I saw Christo say that disconnecting doesn't add articulation, it only prevents pitching/swaying on off-camber trails, which surprises me... How could it NOT add articulation? The pics for the Power Wagon showed impressive improvements: RTI went from like 450 to 650.

I'm still thinking of other ideas: grinding flats on the two halves to facilitate mounting collar... Making the cut on a longitudinal section and rigging up a collar (maybe no better then disconnecting an end)...

I'm also curious about that 11k lb-ft number, but haven't had time to think about tests... a fish scale, a disconnected end, and a simple $10 tire ramp?

Kenton

 

[IdahoDoug]

Kent,

Regarding the torque number and attempting to figure out the exact figure, I just wanted you to know the forces you're dealing with. There's a number somewhere in the threads I got from my brother in law who's a suspension development engineer, and he provided the Ford Expedition number - a high figure I found astounding. That was straight off their CAD system.

Regarding the front articulation, I've personally done testing with a Gen II Montero/Pajero which has notoriously poor articulation. Removing the front sway bar caused a change of around a quarter inch of flex up front. I also got into an ill-advised discussion with a couple of knowledgeable fellows who own 80s on another list who explained on the 80 their is very little gained as well.

By far the easiest for you, and to provide excellent data for the forum here, would be to spend 30 minutes with a floor jack and remove one end of your sway bar to take measurements. It would be a disaster to spend a great deal of time and mess around with high forces like that only to find it gave you a mere half inch of flex, eh? Much better to quantify the "benefit" and then decide if it's worth chasing.

DougM

 

[alia176]

kenton,

There's a company that makes this exact thing for sway bars but damn if I can remember the name of the outfit. It's similar name as Fabtech, maybe Fabsomething. Anyway, my biggest concern with this is the changing of the sway bar's metalaurgical (spell?) properties after welding. Isn't the sway bar material made of spring steel or similar? Would this make the welded area more brittle, thereby failing under torsional stesses?

I'm still not understanding why we can't simply replace the front nuts/bolts with simple linch pins (McMastercarr, p/n 98480A015) ? Simply pull the hitch pins, bungee the bar out of the way and go wheelin. Yeah, you'll need to get under the truck but that's unavoidable I think. In the rear, I simply pull the pin, and bungee the bar to the rear trailing arms on one side. The sway bar moves with the trailing arm and hasn't been an issue thus far.

 

[Gumby]

Ali-you're missing a vital concept of web-wheeling. Really difficult but cool solutions to the simpliest of problems that might not even make a bit of difference anyways.

 

[Waggoner5]

The disconnect will add articulation, but not that much unless you are willing to make shock mounts, and add length to the shocks. Christo did say that it would not help a Cruiser with stock shocks in stock shock locations, but also said, and proved it, when new shock mounts were made, and long shocks added, the truck did have a big increase in articulation. His truck does not run stabilizers at all. I should also add that with the weight of an 80, the disconnecting of the sway bars will help with the off road stability, allowing the axle to follow the terrain easier. Also, any testing with an independent suspension will not be relevant to our 80s in any way. I will have disconnects on mine for sure, and will probably make links that will disconnect. This works for my 60s.
Gary

 

[IdahoDoug]

Gary,

My point in bringing the IFS vehicle I tested into the discussion was that someone considering this should actually disconnect their own bar and measure the articulation difference like I did. If it's 8" more - yeah, spend some more time/money on it. But if it's 3/8", then you just spent $0 finding that out and are much wiser for free.

DougM

 

[Junk]

by the way, who do I have to bl** to keep my posts from being "moved"? What's the criteria for moving, anyhow.

I'm the one that moved it dude. As Gumby indicated, because your thread was mostly about a frickin Dodge. Again, as Gumby had indicated, if the focus had been on how to migrate similiar technology to the 80, then it would have remained. It's still in chat though if you want to talk about Dodgies etc. Maybe you can even post another business card over there.

Out of curiosity, have you wheeled your 80? If so, do you honestly believe you have not been able to do an obstacle due to limited articulation?

 

[Waggoner5]

Doug, I completely agree with you on that. I was just thinking on a different track. Sorry.
The big problem with an 80 is the shocks. I say ramp it first, then disconnect both shocks and sway bars then ramp it again.. I think people will be amazed......and Christo will sell arms and shocks and maybe come out with a bolt set of shock mounts that will allow for loooooong shocks.

 

[cruiserdan]

I'm the one that moved it dude. As Gumby indicated, because your thread was mostly about a frickin Dodge. Again, as Gumby had indicated, if the focus had been on how to migrate similiar technology to the 80, then it would have remained. It's still in chat though if you want to talk about Dodgies etc. Maybe you can even post another business card over there.

Out of curiosity, have you wheeled your 80? If so, do you honestly believe you have not been able to do an obstacle due to limited articulation?

Ever the diplomat...........

 

[IdahoDoug]

Yeah, he went to the Attilla the Hun School for Diplomacy.......Heh.

DougM

 

[Gumby]

Out of curiosity, have you wheeled your 80? If so, do you honestly believe you have not been able to do an obstacle due to limited articulation?

Well, I'm just a web wheeler and stuff, but I would bet if I did wheel, I would have found myself in some serious ass-puckering situations the way an 80 hangs a wheel in the air.