80 series rear hub preload procedure question (1 Viewer)

[landcruiser3DP]

i'm looking at the aussie 2 gear low video on this that i will link below and i wanted to make sure i had this correct. i wasn't clear on what happens between preload and aligning the matchmarks.
it seems to me it is
1 torque to 43 ft lb
2 spin hub
3 torque to 43 ft lb
4 loosen to "hand tight"
then,
well then then you check with the fish scale to see if resistance is between 7 and 13 foot lb?
then what? if it isn't you tighten or loosen the lock nut? and then you align the match marks by going clockwise/tighter i guess?
also why are you aligning match marks? does it have to do with those three philips head set bolts?
THANKS

 

[landcruiser3DP]

video link and graphic from the cheat sheet thread on this.

 

[mudgudgeon]

If you want your wheel bearings to be loose after about 1000 miles, follow that sequence.

If you want them to stay tight

Once you have prepped the hub, install bearing shells, large bearing race, grease/ dust seal on the back of the hub, 1/3 filled the hub with bearing grease (cavity beets bearings), then,
- Install the hub.
- Fit thrust washer.
- Fit 1st 54mm adjusting nut
- Tighten to 43 or 45lb ( splitting hairs here, the goal is to seat the bearing fully in the hub, and seat the tapered rollers.
- at this point, mount the wheel to the hub.
- rotate the hub 1/2 - 1 turn each direction.
- back off the nut, just a touch
- retorque to 20 or 30lb. (20lb for small tyres, 30lb for 35" & up)
- rotate the hub again.
- retorqe to 20 or 30lb
- fit locking tab washer
- fit outer 54mm lock nut.
- torque to 45lb
- bend tabs onto flats of 54mm nuts. Some tabs will line up closely with inner nut, some will be closer to outer nut. Bend some in each direction.

- install drive flanges etc etc

 

[OGBeno]

If you want your wheel bearings to be loose after about 1000 miles, follow that sequence.

If you want them to stay tight

Once you have prepped the hub, install bearing shells, large bearing race, grease/ dust seal on the back of the hub, 1/3 filled the hub with bearing grease (cavity beets bearings), then,
- Install the hub.
- Fit thrust washer.
- Fit 1st 54mm adjusting nut
- Tighten to 43 or 45lb ( splitting hairs here, the goal is to seat the bearing fully in the hub, and seat the tapered rollers.
- at this point, mount the wheel to the hub.
- rotate the hub 1/2 - 1 turn each direction.
- back off the nut, just a touch
- retorque to 20 or 30lb. (20lb for small tyres, 30lb for 35" & up)
- rotate the hub again.
- retorqe to 20 or 30lb
- fit locking tab washer
- fit outer 54mm lock nut.
- torque to 45lb
- bend tabs onto flats of 54mm nuts. Some tabs will line up closely with inner nut, some will be closer to outer nut. Bend some in each direction.

- install drive flanges etc etc

You are talking about the front. He is questioning the process for the rear which is quite different.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Oops, sorry, do that ^^^^ for the front.

Rear is basically the same. Do the same in terms of torquing to seat the bearing, and to set preload to 20-30lb.
Only the locking method is different. And a couple of tools are different.

 

[mudgudgeon]

and then you align the match marks by going clockwise/tighter i guess?

After preloadibg the bearing, turn the inner nut clockwise so the closest match mark lines up. You are only aligning one mark

also why are you aligning match marks? does it have to do with those three philips head set bolts?

Yes. align one mark, then the two philps screws in the locking washer will line up with holes in the inner nut.

Edited, coz thumbs are faster, but less coordinated than brain some days

 

[OGBeno]

After preloadibg the bearing, turn the inner nut clockwise so the closest match mark lines up. You are only aligning one mark

Yes. align one mark, then the three philps screws in the locking washer will line up with holes in the inner nut.

2 Screws per side. Not 3.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

so,
1 torque to 43 ft lb
2 spin hub
3 torque to 43 ft lb
4 loosen to "hand tight"
5 tighten until it spins freely, is not loose but also does not bind with friction.
6. follow match marks (by turning clockwise to align) and screws steps per FSM?
and ignore the fish scale or what?

 

[mudgudgeon]

so,
1 torque to 43 ft lb
2 spin hub
3 torque to 43 ft lb
4 loosen to "hand tight"
5 tighten until it spins freely, is not loose but also does not bind with friction.
6. follow match marks (by turning clockwise to align) and screws steps per FSM?
and ignore the fish scale or what?

Go back and read my first post, point by point.

Hand tight is a worthless, un-repeatable measurement.

The hub will spin freely with 45lb of torque on the inner nut, or 5lb of torque. You won't feel the difference IMO, unless you have a calibrated forearm.

Any video or guide that says " set bearing preload by feel", or " hand tight" is BS.
What's hand tight to a 90lb weakling isn't the same as hand tight to a 300lb muscle mountain.

And yes, throw the fish scale in the bin.

Actually, see below

1 - Once you have prepped the hub, install bearing shells, large bearing race, grease/ dust seal on the back of the hub, 1/3 filled the hub with bearing grease (cavity beets bearings), then,
2 - Install the hub.
3 - Fit thrust washer. Tab goes into the groove on the spindle. ( This stops the bearing adjusting nut from rotating later)

4 - Fit the round adjusting nut with three lugs. Toyota calls it "rear bearing lock nut".

5 - Tighten to 43 or 45lb ( splitting hairs here, the goal is to seat the bearing fully in the hub, and seat the tapered rollers.
6 - at this point, mount the wheel to the hub.
7 - rotate the hub 1/2 - 1 turn each direction.
8 - back off the nut, just a touch ( the end goal is 20 or 30lb, not 45lb)
9 - retorque to 20 or 30lb. (20lb for small tyres, 30lb for 35" & up)
10 - rotate the hub again.
11 - retorqe to 20 or 30lb
12 - continue to tighten the nut incrementally until the match mark that is closest to lining up, is aligned. (Do not loosen the nut at this point.) Tighten a touch, check alignment, tighten a touch more as needed . . .

13 - two ( of the six) threaded holes in the locknut/ adjusting nut should now line up with holes ( not threaded) in the thrust washer
14 - if not exactly aligned, tweak position of the adjusting nut to align holes.
15 - screw two philips head screws into the adjusting nut. Get both screws started before you tighten either screw down. Once both screws are threaded in, tighten them down hand tight as tight a you can without stripping the screwhead with a hand held screw driver.
(These two screws cause the adjusting nut to bind on the threads of the spindle so it doesn't come loose)


Part of seating the bearing is getting the tapered rollers to wriggle and settle into a final position within the bearing race and bearing shell, and squish the grease out of the way so there's no wriggle room to create play after you button it all up and drive the first 5, 10, 50 miles.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Go back and read my first post, point by point.

Hand tight is a worthless, un-repeatable measurement.

The hub will spin freely with 45lb of torque on the inner nut, or 5lb of torque. You won't feel the difference IMO, unless you have a calibrated forearm.

Any video or guide that says " set bearing preload by feel", or " hand tight" is BS.
What's hand tight to a 90lb weakling isn't the same as hand tight to a 300lb muscle mountain.

And yes, throw the fish scale in the bin.

Actually, see below


13 - two ( of the six) threaded holes in the locknut/ adjusting nut should now line up with holes ( not threaded) in the thrust washer
14 - if not exactly aligned, tweak position of the adjusting nut to align holes.
15 - screw two philips head screws into the adjusting nut. Get both screws started before you tighten either screw down. Once both screws are threaded in, tighten them down hand tight as tight a you can without stripping the screwhead with a hand held screw driver.
(These two screws cause the adjusting nut to bind on the threads of the spindle so it doesn't come loose)


Part of seating the bearing is getting the tapered rollers to wriggle and settle into a final position within the bearing race and bearing shell, and squish the grease out of the way so there's no wriggle room to create play after you button it all up and drive the first 5, 10, 50 miles.

THANKS MG, sorry it's a little confusing. the front hubs have an adjusting nut and a lock nut.
the rear hubs have just this circular nut.
FSM says 1-4 is to torque to 43 ft lb, spin, loosen, torque to 43 ft lb, loosen.
you are saying step 5 is to torque to 20-30 lbs, loosen, then torque to 20-30 ft lb.
whereas step 5 in FSM is basically (i guess to tighten it up) and torque it tighter and tighter until 6-12 ft lb on the fish scale as the final step?
meaning the final torque is 20-30 ft lb (30 for other tires) on your method and fish scale method per FSM?
i guess i am asking because the video doesn't seem to specially say you are iteratively tightening the circular nut to arrive at the fish scale value so it was a bit confusing.

 

[mudgudgeon]

The FSM is flawed on this.

Rear bearings are less of a problem than front, but the FSM method can result in loose bearings in very short order.

Rotating the hub a few times
The fish scale is basicallygiving you a reading on grease friction, which with modern grades of grease the fish scale no longer gives a valid measurement, if it ever did.

What I've typed here is a guide to an alternative method that is repeatable, reliable, and tested by lots of members here. ( I'm not taking credit for the method)

You can use the FSM method, and some people swear by it, coz, you know, Toyota is God.
Or use the alternative

 

[mudgudgeon]

.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

The FSM is flawed on this.

Rear bearings are less of a problem than front, but the FSM method can result in loose bearings in very short order.

Rotating the hub a few times
The fish scale is basicallygiving you a reading on grease friction, which with modern grades of grease the fish scale no longer gives a valid measurement, if it ever did.

What I've typed here is a guide to an alternative method that is repeatable, reliable, and tested by lots of members here. ( I'm not taking credit for the method)

You can use the FSM method, and some people swear by it, coz, you know, Toyota is God.
Or use the alternative

hi MG. thanks for this. it's actually a really confusing topic.
the first thing i find confusing is people keep generically saying there is an error in the FSM. but i've never seen anyone explain what it is and i thought at least for front wheels at least that there was a mistake in that they used inch pounds. meaning people were saying the approx. 4 ft lb value here was too low.
but the FSM seems to be very specific in that they want you to preload 43, preload 43, back off and get a value by iteratively tightening the adjusting nut based on needing a fish scale gauge reading 6-14 ft lb or something.
THEN they tell you to set the lock nut at 48 ft lb.
> 1. if i am reading correctly you only seem to be modifying this for front wheels by saying to set the adjusting nut to 20-30 ft lb and not using 6-14 ft lb with the fish scale.
again apologies if i am missing something but it's confusing.
then for rear wheels - well FSM still seems to ask you to use 43 ft lb preload, back off, 43 ft lb and back off. then they want you to use the fish scale again for 6-14 ft lb or something and that's it because there is no lock nut.
> 2. here you also seem to be saying the consensus is to not use the fish scale but to use 20-30 ft lb instead.
not to play devils advocate but what is the issue about grease? newer wheel bearing grease somehow leaves the 6-14 ft lb with a fish scale as too loose because the oil is thicker and gives more resistance?
and the solution is basically to use 20-30 ft lb on the nuts?
couldn't you just as easily say to use 25 ft on on the fish scale instead of a lower value?
i mean it does seem a little weird to solve it by saying to use a torque value on the nuts instead of just changing the fish scale unless you are trying to avoid using the fish scale for some reason.
it unless you are saying screw it this works from testing. which is fine it's just it seems like an equally valid solution would be to say new grease leads you to need to increase the resistance value on the fish scale.
sorry i literally just realized that the inch pound value wasn't really wrong and they just wanted you to keep - well it's darn confusing actually.
tommy the tool man uses the 48 inch pound value on the front wheel and it takes him an hour to get to the fish scale value by bumping up 1 nM each time and retreating.
i don't know. are we saying modern grease provides less friction? more friction? it's very odd.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Either use follow the FSM, and use the fish scale, or

Throw the fish scale in the nearest creek and forget about it.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Either use follow the FSM, and use the fish scale, or

Throw the fish scale in the nearest creek and forget about it.

thanks MG.
also thanks for the comments on the preload on the bearings as seating the tapered rollers. it helps to visualize this stuff which i guess is called learning.
on the rear hubs i guess you line up the match marks so the screws can go through the washer underneath and this binds the round locking nut or something? do the ends of the screws also have to bear on something?
- one last whack at this:
i guess the thing i don't understand after hacking through all of this is if people are saying the fish scale method is horst inconvenient or they don't have the tool (or don't want to use it) so they have come up with an alternative torque value method for the nuts which is just as effective after trial and error. or if there is in fact some legit issue where following FSM is unsafe.
it seems like two separate issues that get confused when the FSM uses inch pounds.
then there is some other issue it seems where using the inch pounds value it means you start at a ridiculously low value so it takes time to get the proper rating.
i suppose it's all three actually...

 

[mudgudgeon]

Yes, locking screws have no thread on the tip. The screw goes through the bearing lock nut, and into the holes in the thrust washer. This is what gets aligned when you line up match marks.
The holes in the thrust washer are not threaded, just there to locate the two locking screws.

I have previously used the FSM method with the fish scales.
Followed it as carefully as I could.
I repeatedly had front bearings noticeably loose after about 1000km or less.

Tried a couple of alternative methods, including tightening the nut, backing it off, and then tightening to "feel", which I think is lazy old skool mechanic BS.

Search for " @Tools R Us method"
He was a highly respected landcruiser specialist and member here. He tested the method I described.
There's been lots of discussion about this method, and it was often referred to as "@Tools R Us method"

 

[mrsleeve]

Many many of us around here follow the Yota book with near religious fervor. That said wheel bearing preload is where most us have found tighter is more gooder. From a bearing perspective we have big heavy duty bearings that are quite low speed in the world of bearings with ample lube so the preload tension can be much greater than what Mr T figured up.

I (and many others) tighten the inner nut to 35ft/lbs while spinning the hub, back it off a till it’s just snug ( this just means not letting the hub and bearings slip back off the spindle after seating them) then retorque to 35ft/lbs while spinning the hub again. Set the outter lock nut to 45 Ft/lbs and then the lock screws in the rear to 45 in/lbs I used those values front and rear as it’s easy to remember and and simplifies the whole ordeal to some degree.

This is especially important with bigger heavier tires, and I know there are some guys running even higher torque preload values with 37s