550 / 250 or an Inoes?

[doc5339]

DI carbon build up is way more about oil NOACK (volatility) and the fact no fuel is washing the back of the intake valves. The fuel itself has way less to do with it. Catch cans are the best solution along with regular cleaning, and walnut blasting if needed; really not worth it in what is meant to be a high duty cycle utility vehicle.

Carbon build up sucks, and it is a design flaw. I have had less issues with heavier vehicles under higher load and have used BG GDI cleaner to clean the intake valves. DI works best along with Port Injection IMHO.

 

[dms]

My daughter has an Inoes and she loves it. I have only driven it a time or two an it truly is a cross of the old (best) Defender and G-wagon. The BMW engine and transmission are what I wish my 97 Defender 90 had. As far as reliability, she has over 10K miles on it and they have been trouble free. It is a bit quirky, the finger snapping when you exceed the speed limited is one of my biggest pet peeves and as I recall, only the dealer can reset the service reminder (that may have changed by now). I'm sure the 550 is a vehicle for the highway as the Grenadier is a bit loud for my old ears, but for style, it is hard to beat the Grenadier.

 

[numby]

There is an INEOS dealer close to my house that must have 50 to 60 Grenadiers parked in their (front) lot for sale. Maybe more in the back. I am NOT exaggerating at all. I have seen ads where they give you additional incentives if you own a Defender, Jeep or whatever other off-roader and trade it in a new Grenadier.

The backlog at dealer lots is the result of Ineos' odd decision to allow anybody to pre-order a vehicle with a $500 fully refundable deposit. All kinds of nitwits ordered wonky specs and then got their money back after their vehicle was built and on its way to the States. Some dealers were in areas that had 500-600 preorders so having a 10% surplus at this point isn't that bad for a vehicle that doesn't get millions in advertizing thrown at it. I went by a dealer last week. They have 10 available and only two weren't bloated oddballs (and none my color). They said their sales now are new full price vehicles with big deposits and no incentives.

Regardless of how good the B58 is, I can't imagine the Grenadier being fun to drive at a 5,900-lb curb weight with only 282 hp/332 ft/lbs. Same power as my GX470 (stock) with 1,000-lbs more dead weight. I am confident that it would have gotten the same or better fuel economy with a LS/LT V8, or even a drop-in Ford 7.3 Godzilla V8, and been way more pleasurable to drive. Both the GM 6.6 LT V8 and Ford 7.3 V8 are available as off-the-shelf crate engines as well. I get those engines probably make zero sense in Africa, Australia, or Europe, but they would make sense here.

You should do a test drive. They seem pretty powerful to me but I'm not a horsepower guy. The point of detuning the B58 was to get a longer, flatter torque curve. And longer engine life if used for heavy towing/hauling. Most reviews seem to indicate success as regards the torque curve. Obviously the jury's still out on the longevity question. Ratcliffe himself (the sole owner) said he didn't want a performance vehicle and seems more than happy with the engine power levels as offered for the intended vehicle use - i.e. long distance travel while heavily loaded.

The GM V8 option would've been nice for US models but the company makes one basic vehicle for all 50 markets worldwide. That was to simplify the parts availability and create a cohesive user base as much as is possible. Besides GM (or Ford or whatever) aren't common or even well respected engines all over the world and there's no great parts network either. I recently had some Australians scratch their head at a mildly built Gen 1 small block in one of my trucks. They'd never seen one and it didn't really tickle their fancy. They were more interested in newer diesel engines for remote travel and wanted a turbo. Sadly, we don't get the B57 diesel option here but the B58 engine is built from the same block and crank so it's probably pretty strong.

p.s. - Ineos made a demo with an American V8 but I don't know anything about it.

Carbon build up is not going to cause a dropped valve. You'll make less power and be less efficient because of reduced airflow through the head. It is generally going to be unnoticed as it happens over time.

IMHO, carbon buildup in DI cars is only a small drawback. If you run some injector cleaner into a vacuum port in the intake every 20k miles (10 minute job), or do a walnut blasting every 80k or so, it's fine.

If I were designing an engine for myself, I would go DI only, as the small amount of maintenance isn't worth the added complexity and cost of also have port injection on top of DI. I would also choose I6 for this type of vehicle over any other, even V8.

As a general rule inline sixes are so much simpler to deal with. There's only one cylinder head so fueling, intake, cooling, and exhaust systems are easier for me to fumble with. Most of my vehicles are I6s.

The next generation of B58 engines has the added complexity of port injection on top of the DI. I'm guessing they'll be in Grenadiers at some point but Ineos may be a small enough manufacturer to jump the hurdles involved in keeping the current version for a while longer.

 

[Rednexus]

You should do a test drive. They seem pretty powerful to me but I'm not a horsepower guy. The point of detuning the B58 was to get a longer, flatter torque curve. And longer engine life if used for heavy towing/hauling. Most reviews seem to indicate success as regards the torque curve. Obviously the jury's still out on the longevity question. Ratcliffe himself (the sole owner) said he didn't want a performance vehicle and seems more than happy with the engine power levels as offered for the intended vehicle use - i.e. long distance travel while heavily loaded.

The GM V8 option would've been nice for US models but the company makes one basic vehicle for all 50 markets worldwide. That was to simplify the parts availability and create a cohesive user base as much as is possible. Besides GM (or Ford or whatever) aren't common or even well respected engines all over the world and there's no great parts network either. I recently had some Australians scratch their head at a mildly built Gen 1 small block in one of my trucks. They'd never seen one and it didn't really tickle their fancy. They were more interested in newer diesel engines for remote travel and wanted a turbo. Sadly, we don't get the B57 diesel option here but the B58 engine is built from the same block and crank so it's probably pretty strong.

I'm armchair quarterbacking here . It's not a vehicle I'm really interested in due the cost and uncertain (at best) future parts availability down the road. It's a poor value proposition for someone like me who tends to keep vehicles a long time and lives in an area where even Toyotas are somewhat uncommon (it would be fun to try to order a front wheel bearing for an Ineos from my local O'Reilly's ). In the past, I've had to drive 90+miles in the past to pick up parts like ignition coils for a Subaru where I needed the vehicle on the road the same day. It can be pretty rough owning even a higher-volume import when you live in the sticks.

I'd buy a GX550 OT+ over a Grenadier hands down due to the additional power and likely good future OEM parts and aftermarket support (they appear to be about the same cost).

 

[Catching Neutral]

I have an acquaintance who owns one.
He has the disposable income to do whatever he wants.
He advised against buying one.
Nothing terrible. Poor gas mileage, under powered, no local infrastructure.

 

[thatcabledude]

Also, I'd 10 to 1 rather wrench on a B58 than an LS engine. It doesn't get much easier to work on than an inline six. With BMWs it's the turbo V8s you want to stay away from, they are a nightmare of complexity.

Have you ever worked on an LS engine? It’s about one step above working on a lawnmower engine.

I don’t think it’s possible to say any DOHC engine is more simple than a pushrod engine.

 

[Rednexus]

Have you ever worked on an LS engine? It’s about one step above working on a lawnmower engine.

I don’t think it’s possible to say any DOHC engine is more simple than a pushrod engine.

Agreed. A LS is a small-block Chevy. It's like working on a engine that's built out of legos. My 2UZ-FE is significantly more complicated and harder to work on than a LS would be as it has a much more complicated valvetrain and it's a physically big/wide engine with two DOHC banks.

 

[Jetboy]

The problem with a GM small block - what if you got an L87? The failure rate is around 4 times as high as the V35A bearing issue on the new Tundra. It's not really the engine so much as the manufacturer. Not saying BMW has a great track record, but the B58 is pretty well proven engine. Probably more reliable than a new GM v8. And the B58 is also the same base engine block as the B57, so the diesel version is a nominal engineering effort. Since BMW was willing to sell the B57 and B58 to Ineos, seems like a pretty good choice as far as the world of options.

I'm not anti-GM v8. I've had a bunch of them. But they're not particularly reliable in my experience. I've yet to own one that made it much past 100k without at least some engine work. The range is basically everything from crank position sensors, intake manifold air leaks, oil consumption, etc. But - they all need something. Great engine for a rock crawler or sports car - super energy dense, compact, low cost, great power, and pretty good efficiency. Lots to like. It's just the build quality that isn't quite there.

 

[23GXOR]

Have you ever worked on an LS engine? It’s about one step above working on a lawnmower engine.

I don’t think it’s possible to say any DOHC engine is more simple than a pushrod engine.

Yes. I've owned three vehicles that had LS engines, and worked on all of them.

I didn't say the B58 was simpler, just that it's easier to work on. Inline engines are nearly always easier to work on than Vs. OHC vs pushrod has nothing to do with it, 90% of the work you do on an engine as normal maintenance and repair doesn't require pulling the valve covers.

 

[23GXOR]

The problem with a GM small block - what if you got an L87? The failure rate is around 4 times as high as the V35A bearing issue on the new Tundra. It's not really the engine so much as the manufacturer. Not saying BMW has a great track record, but the B58 is pretty well proven engine. Probably more reliable than a new GM v8. And the B58 is also the same base engine block as the B57, so the diesel version is a nominal engineering effort. Since BMW was willing to sell the B57 and B58 to Ineos, seems like a pretty good choice as far as the world of options.

I'm not anti-GM v8. I've had a bunch of them. But they're not particularly reliable in my experience. I've yet to own one that made it much past 100k without at least some engine work. The range is basically everything from crank position sensors, intake manifold air leaks, oil consumption, etc. But - they all need something. Great engine for a rock crawler or sports car - super energy dense, compact, low cost, great power, and pretty good efficiency. Lots to like. It's just the build quality that isn't quite there.

The original LS1 engine has solid long term reliability, if left alone. They got steadily worse as GM squeezed more power out of them, then fell off a cliff once AFM was added. By the time they switched over to the LTs though, even the non-AFM engines weren't very reliable. I traded my 2013 6.2 Sierra for this GX because I could tell the valvetrain was failing, and wasn't willing to sink parts into a truck that was rusting away beneath me due to GMs delightful quality steel body panels.

This was on a factory non-AFM truck with barely over 100k miles. Not great, and also as you mentioned, quite common.

 

[SanJuanJ]

There is an INEOS dealer close to my house that must have 50 to 60 Grenadiers parked in their (front) lot for sale. Maybe more in the back. I am NOT exaggerating at all. I have seen ads where they give you additional incentives if you own a Defender, Jeep or whatever other off-roader and trade it in a new Grenadier.

I went to the Ineos dealer in CO Springs a few months ago and same deal. Their lot was overflowing with them. Clearly sales aren't what they expected, so you can make a deal. But I test drove one and decided to move on. I liked the coolness / overlandy vibe of the interior and exterior (a lot, I have to admit). But no way I'm paying $80k for something that feels like it could be out-performed by my anemic 8 year old 4Runner.

 

[Zill]

The original LS1 engine has solid long term reliability, if left alone. They got steadily worse as GM squeezed more power out of them, then fell off a cliff once AFM was added. By the time they switched over to the LTs though, even the non-AFM engines weren't very reliable. I traded my 2013 6.2 Sierra for this GX because I could tell the valvetrain was failing, and wasn't willing to sink parts into a truck that was rusting away beneath me due to GMs delightful quality steel body panels.

This was on a factory non-AFM truck with barely over 100k miles. Not great, and also as you mentioned, quite common.

The LS3 was really the last good engine Chevy produced. After they swapped back to the LT motors, engine quality went way downhill.

 

[Rednexus]

The problem with a GM small block - what if you got an L87? The failure rate is around 4 times as high as the V35A bearing issue on the new Tundra. It's not really the engine so much as the manufacturer. Not saying BMW has a great track record, but the B58 is pretty well proven engine. Probably more reliable than a new GM v8. And the B58 is also the same base engine block as the B57, so the diesel version is a nominal engineering effort. Since BMW was willing to sell the B57 and B58 to Ineos, seems like a pretty good choice as far as the world of options.

I'm not anti-GM v8. I've had a bunch of them. But they're not particularly reliable in my experience. I've yet to own one that made it much past 100k without at least some engine work. The range is basically everything from crank position sensors, intake manifold air leaks, oil consumption, etc. But - they all need something. Great engine for a rock crawler or sports car - super energy dense, compact, low cost, great power, and pretty good efficiency. Lots to like. It's just the build quality that isn't quite there.

I'll concede that GM electronics are nowhere near OEM Denso/Hitachi etc quality .

 

[numby]

I went to the Ineos dealer in CO Springs a few months ago and same deal. Their lot was overflowing with them. Clearly sales aren't what they expected, so you can make a deal. But I test drove one and decided to move on. I liked the coolness / overlandy vibe of the interior and exterior (a lot, I have to admit).

See my post # 203 above. I bet that dealer has sold 350+ vehicles in less than 18 months. Yes, you can get a deal on the rejects but not on a new built-to-order vehicle.

But no way I'm paying $80k for something that feels like it could be out-performed by my anemic 8 year old 4Runner.

I've driven both a 2024 4Runner and a Grenadier. I like them both but it's close.

A 2018 4runner (yours?) is naturally aspirated 270HP and 280 Torque on a good day. It tows 5000 lbs. and chokes at high altitude.

The Ineos is turbo charged 280 HP and 320 Torque. It tows 7700 lbs and does it to 10,000'+. Lots of B58s put out 380 HP. A tune and a few bolt-ons and they hit the 500 hp mark no problem.

It all depends on what you want - a big car with a decent 4WD system or a heavy half ton 4X4 PU in station wagon form.

 

[MRego]

Yes, you can get a deal on the rejects but not on a new built-to-order vehicle.

With so many rejects, you have to be pretty picky and specific to go the built-to-order route. In any event, assuming you are right on thousands and thousands of people pulling out their deposit at the last minute, there must be a reason why they did so. I do remember reading in this forum people excited about the Grenadier when it was announced and several putting deposits down.

 

[Jetboy]

I'll concede that GM electronics are nowhere near OEM Denso/Hitachi etc quality .

Some of it is the engineering too. Having a GM crank position sensor is a potential problem. GM choosing to put the MF'er inside the bell housing and accessed from the TOP is a much bigger problem. How did GM think people would get to it? The FSM says pull the cab off. For a crank position sensor. Or putting a timing belt on the BACK of the I6 diesel for the oil pump so you get to spend around $4-5k for a belt replacement instead of a few hundred on the front or never if they had used a chain or gear drive. Those sorts of decisions are why I would shy away from a current GM powertrain. It's the self inflicted stupidity that's hard to avoid unless you go back in time to the LM7 or similar engines. The baby duramax could have been so good too. Can't believe I'm writing this, but I'd take a B57 over a GM or current Toyota 3.3 diesel.

 

[Rednexus]

Honestly I'd never buy any modern, USDM, emissions-regulated, light-duty diesel truck or SUV. I know they make sense for fleet drivers, but for occasional use, they are not good choices. It's why I bought at 24.7-HP Tier IV diesel tractor that just has EGR instead of a 35-HP plus tractor with DPF and/or DEF.

All the light duty diesel truck engines are maintenance nightmares - Ford, GM, Cummins, etc. And, it's probably why Toyota makes diesels and does not sell them here. If the Ineos had a BMW diesel in it, it would probably need to be just as bad to be sold in the US (looks like the B57 has not been sold here since 2019)

Let's be honest here though, all manufacturers do dumb stuff. The starter on my 2UZ-FE is under the intake manifold. The exhaust manifolds are a terrible, crack-prone design. The UR has coolant valley plate leaks.

 

[gasman4u]

Honestly I'd never buy any modern, USDM, emissions-regulated, light-duty diesel truck or SUV. I know they make sense for fleet drivers, but for occasional use, they are not good choices. It's why I bought at 24.7-HP Tier IV diesel tractor that just has EGR instead of a 35-HP plus tractor with DPF and/or DEF.

All the light duty diesel truck engines are maintenance nightmares - Ford, GM, Cummins, etc. And, it's probably why Toyota makes diesels and does not sell them here. If the Ineos had a BMW diesel in it, it would probably need to be just as bad to be sold in the US (looks like the B57 has not been sold here since 2019)

Let's be honest here though, all manufacturers do dumb stuff. The starter on my 2UZ-FE is under the intake manifold. The exhaust manifolds are a terrible, crack-prone design. The UR has coolant valley plate leaks.

The 2uz-fe is the 100 series v8, right? If so, apparently their (imo stupid) starter location choice was due to weight/balance of the engine as its rated as an aircraft engine iirc. This is the only thing that would make sense to me for the starter to be located where it is. HTH

The emissions stuff has made typically reliable diesel engines not so and needlessly complex compared to their straight forward prior gen’s. This is frustrating as a consumer who wants to keep my cars running for a long time and maintain them myself. These cpu controlled mechanisms for marginal improvement for emissions don’t necessarily equal lower consumption of restricting the car doesn’t last and ends up in a scrapyard early.

But I’m a sINpUL mAN fRoM tHe COunTrY.

 

[Jetboy]

The 2uz-fe is the 100 series v8, right? If so, apparently their (imo stupid) starter location choice was due to weight/balance of the engine as its rated as an aircraft engine iirc. This is the only thing that would make sense to me for the starter to be located where it is. HTH

The emissions stuff has made typically reliable diesel engines not so and needlessly complex compared to their straight forward prior gen’s. This is frustrating as a consumer who wants to keep my cars running for a long time and maintain them myself. These cpu controlled mechanisms for marginal improvement for emissions don’t necessarily equal lower consumption of restricting the car doesn’t last and ends up in a scrapyard early.

But I’m a sINpUL mAN fRoM tHe COunTrY.

I think the location of the starter makes some sense. It's protected and may be cooler than being right next to the exhaust. The GM Northstar v8, Nissan 5.6L v8, and Porsche Cayenne for some generations have them in the V also underneath the intake manifold. Probably a few others. Amazingly I think there are some BMW inline 6 engines that require removing the intake manifold to change the starter. Somehow they found a place on an inline engine to make it just as hard.

I don't think I've ever had a starter actually go out in a Toyota. I'm sure it's happened. But I've never had it on any of mine. Maybe just lucky. Had a few GMs, but they were easy to swap with a few bolts and easy access.

 

[Rednexus]

The starter on my GX470 went out at 136K or so, and I expect it will need another starter at around 270K. It gets kind of cooked in the valley of the motor. Removing the intake itself is actually fairly easy (maybe 45 min to get it off); the challenge is removing the two rear starter bolts that are up against the firewall, particularly on a rig with SAIS like mine has. The SAIS tubes are downright terrible to remove and there is almost no room to remove the starter bolts themselves. I did the SAIS delete when I did the starter and removed the tubes (no emissions checks here).

The starter pales in comparison to replacing the OEM manifolds with headers. That took me around 21-22 hours to DIY. The UZ is a wide, wide motor and it's right up against the inner fenders, frame, and suspension components. Now that those things are done, I'm left with a buttery-smooth, ultra-reliable, good-sounding, and reasonably powerful Toyota V8 that should run for another 400K+ miles.