550 / 250 or an Inoes?

[stonepa]

Love that place. Always nice to see the blue glacier on the other side of the spit on nice weather days.

So Toyota could put $10K per unit into crash testing/EPA whatever for US regs and still come in at a price of an SR5 4Runner ($43K?).

The 70 would sell in Europe for $33K or $43K, and unlike the States, we have had 70s for ages, like it, and the 2.8l is a nice engine. So what is the problem Toyota? Is it supply?

Americans might like their comfort more than a $33K series 70 could afford them, but we would live with and love it in Europe where our driving environment is much different.

And yes, in Europe we have a far broader range of options packages and models in the Prado range as compared to what you have gotten in the US with the LC.....there is generally a very bare base model at a convenient entry price. Looks like the 250 is headed in that direction now.

I’ve driven SFA vehicles. They suck on the road compared to IFS vehicles and most of us spend 99% of our time on the road.

And, yes, I’ve taken my IFS off-road in CO.

Is a SFA better if you are doing Rubicon? Yeah, probably. How many of us actually do that?

It seems to me the pain of driving a SFA isn’t worth whatever psychic boost some people get from posing in the Costco parking lot.

I still don’t understand what people are complaining about, ride wise, with a solid front axle vehicle. Most are coli sprung and ride real nice. Now, my 38 year old solid front axle Land Cruiser may be an outlier with it’s leaf springs on each corner.

 

[MountaineerLC]

I still don’t understand what people are complaining about, ride wise, with a solid front axle vehicle. Most are coli sprung and ride real nice. Now, my 38 year old solid front axle Land Cruiser may be an outlier with it’s leaf springs on each corner.

I agree. I spent of a lot of time in SFA 4x4’s from my childhood up until I bought my 100. The old 60’s definitely rode like tanks as did my uncle’s Defender 90. However, I’ve owned two Land Rover Discovery II’s (one for 18 years) and they rode and drove just fine. Nothing at all to complain about. Then there are the Rnage Rovers and Disco I’s that also were very comfortable on road vehicles and very good off road as well. It’s a shame that Rover’s build quality sucked so bad during that era.

 

[TWILLY]

I’m in Boston. The mountains are in CO. There is a lot of interstate between me and the mountains. Furthermore, my 200 is my daily driver, not a toy that I only use on the weekend.

SFA vehicles drive perfectly fine in cities and on the interstate. I bet the Grenadier is quite comfortable to travel in, like the 200. I use Land Cruisers to access remote places for work and recreation. I prefer SFA to IFS because it simpler, stronger, and pretty fail-proof. I expect the 250's IFS will be robust, but I would prefer SFA.

 

[M1911]

I still don’t understand what people are complaining about, ride wise, with a solid front axle vehicle. Most are coli sprung and ride real nice. Now, my 38 year old solid front axle Land Cruiser may be an outlier with it’s leaf springs on each corner.

It is a simple fact that SFA have more unsprung weight than an IFS. In addition, when one wheel on an IFS hits a bump, the other wheel is not impacted, which is not true of a SFA.

It is a simple fact that 1) IFS rides and handles better on road than a SFA and 2) that the majority of SUV owners (even enthusiasts like us) spend 90+% of our time on road.

 

[M1911]

SFA vehicles drive perfectly fine in cities and on the interstate. I bet the Grenadier is quite comfortable to travel in, like the 200.

No, they do not ride and drive as well as an IFS and you know that. You are just digging yourself into a hole because you know what you have written is untrue but you can’t admit it. SFA does not ride as well as an IFS because it has more unsprung weight and one wheel is effected when the other wheel hits a bump.

Drive both around the potholed roads in New England and you will rapidly understand that benefits of an IFS.

I I prefer SFA to IFS because it simpler, stronger, and pretty fail-proof.

And how many times have you had an IFS fail? In 200k miles I’ve never experienced that.

 

[stonepa]

It is a simple fact that SFA have more unsprung weight than an IFS. In addition, when one wheel on an IFS hits a bump, the other wheel is not impacted, which is not true of a SFA.

It is a simple fact that 1) IFS rides and handles better on road than a SFA and 2) that the majority of SUV owners (even enthusiasts like us) spend 90+% of our time on road.

Okay. I guess I just don’t notice or value those things as a primary purchasing decision point for an offroad SUV.

 

[Adam R]

It seems to me the pain of driving a SFA isn’t worth whatever psychic boost some people get from posing in the Costco parking lot.

I'm just not sure why you have such disdain for SFA rigs. Every semi-truck on the road (millions of them) have a 2WD version of a SFA. While our 100 is very nice, and I'll be replacing it with a LC/550 in the coming years for my wife, our go-to interstate travel rig is still my F-350 with factory "plow" springs. It rides every bit as good as my 100, has three time the power at elevation here in Colorado and gets 25% better mileage. As for a poser rig, my 80 series doesn't have a straight body panel on it anymore, but it goes wherever I point it and it cruises at 80 mph quietly and comfortably. I daily drive all of my rigs as part of a weekly rotation, but none of them are a "pain" to drive. Actually, I enjoy driving them all. I see more jealousy in your posts than factual information.

 

[Fort9378]

I thought this debate was settled 20 years ago but here we are on an internet forum still going at it

 

[TWILLY]

No, they do not ride and drive as well as an IFS and you know that. You are just digging yourself into a hole because you know what you have written is untrue but you can’t admit it. SFA does not ride as well as an IFS because it has more unsprung weight and one wheel is effected when the other wheel hits a bump.

Easy there, jeez.

I said, "SFA vehicles drive perfectly fine in cities and on the interstate." That is, whether or not IFS is better, SFA still does perfectly fine on road, and SFA is simpler and stronger than IFS for dirt. I have seen a few lower ball joint failures on Toyotas over the years. It's uncommon, but SFA is more robust.

 

[Rednexus]

I'm just not sure why you have such disdain for SFA rigs. Every semi-truck on the road (millions of them) have a 2WD version of a SFA. While our 100 is very nice, and I'll be replacing it with a LC/550 in the coming years for my wife, our go-to interstate travel rig is still my F-350 with factory "plow" springs. It rides every bit as good as my 100, has three time the power at elevation here in Colorado and gets 25% better mileage. As for a poser rig, my 80 series doesn't have a straight body panel on it anymore, but it goes wherever I point it and it cruises at 80 mph quietly and comfortably. I daily drive all of my rigs as part of a weekly rotation, but none of them are a "pain" to drive. Actually, I enjoy driving them all. I see more jealousy in your posts than factual information.

I was disappointed and generally disliked a 2022 F-250 PSD I had as a rental a couple of years ago. It was a handful to drive on our curvy, narrow, 2-lane backroads around here. I never took it on the interstate as I live a good ways from the interstate . It was no where near as comfortable or nimble as my GX was. The 1,000 ft/lbs of torque were pretty awesome, although it was already having diesel/water separator problems at < 10,000 miles. I had to disconnect the battery to get it to recognize I had drained all of the water out of it.

 

[numby]

I’ve driven SFA vehicles. They suck on the road compared to IFS vehicles and most of us spend 99% of our time on the road.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Agreed. That will never happen.

I saw a YouTube video of a side by side off-road test of 300 vs Patrol vs Ineos. They also had another suv but I can’t remember which one. The Ineos had, by far, the worst tuned traction control of the lot. It was truly bad compared to the other vehicles.

That's Robert Pepper's video. He did a series on those same four or five vehicles and the Ineos did pretty well over all but did lose out on the electronics to the Toyota and a few others.

To be fair the Ineos traction control is road biased for sure and seems pretty rudimentary. It's really meant for snow and ice on the highway. Or wet grass on your way to the pheasant shoot.That kind of stuff. Locking the center diff drastically reduces it's effectiveness (via software) because the design is then for long distance travel over dirt and gravel roads while heavily loaded or towing at speed, and where there's a ton of small wheel slip. At those times it's undesirable to have TC clamping the brakes every few seconds as it's momentum that carries you through. Think Australia or Africa or very long backroads in the Northern Plains. Drop the t-case into low range and the traction control is completely disabled. The lockers take over and the Ineos always finished 1 or 2 at that point.

Here's a bone stock Ineos on 31s. It's not rock bouncing but I was impressed and I've seen videos of stock Toyotas not making it.

Ineos grenadier vs Beer o’clock hill

We have a very different definition of handling and riding “just fine” on the highway. IFS rides and handles better than SFA. There is simply no way around it. I’ve got 200k miles in IFS Toyota SUVs and have yet to do anything to the front end other than a set of shocks. This idea that Toyota IFS is somehow repair intensive is simply false.

With 225K on my full sized diesel that I've owned since new I haven't done anything to the front. Not even shocks - but I won't lie - it could use some. Crappy vacuum Dana60 under a Cummins up front and a Dana80 out back. Dual sway bars and a 6speed manual. It's poverty specked otherwise. I bought it to use as a camping-hunting rig but it drove so well on mountain highways I just kept my old truck for harder use. I still do a few hundred miles of dirt or gravel a year (just came back from central MT) but in the curves I'm faster than 95% out there without breaking a sweat. I can still do 500-600 miles a day in it.

I totally respect your view. It's just that I've driven IFS trucks over the same roads and I just don't see any significant improvement. We just have different experiences or standards.

 

[M1911]

His Grenadier has been at the dealer for a month. The power steering stopped working, the winch won't work, and the diff locks won't work.

 

[Banandalorian]

Electronic gremlins!? In a bespoke European vehicle full of BMW parts!!?? Who could have predicted this!!!???

 

[Rednexus]

Still a hard pass for me. Don't call me a heretic but I'd rather have a Jeep! At least the faults are know and they can be easily (albeit routinely) fixed at any Stellantis dealership .

 

[malden]

Ineos announces an all electric 4x4, the Fusilier 4x4 , with a petrol engine "range extender."

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/heres-your-first-look-new-ineos-fusilier-electric-roader

Meanwhile, Sir Jim Ratcliffe laments that electric cars are being forced down the throats of consumers in the UK.

Access Restricted

 

[M1911]

Electronic gremlins!? In a bespoke European vehicle full of BMW parts!!?? Who could have predicted this!!!???

Yeah, but it is a solid front axle vehicle and therefore more durable, if we are to believe some folks…

 

[Brock]

mine is awesome....all the bugs for most part were firmware fixes...and not that bad for a brand new from scratch start up. I have had no problems with bugs or anything in mine. Sliders and drawers going on as soon as they arrive (already ordered).....diff breather relocation kit next.....when tires need replacing will be going to 34".

 

[Devils Paw 80]

Love that place. Always nice to see the blue glacier on the other side of the spit on nice weather days.

If you've never been, I recommend the water taxi ride to Halibut cove on the next trip. It's a fascinating spot that also has the option of a short hike to see the Grewingk glacier a bit closer up. We made our first trip to the area a couple summers ago.

As for the Ineos, the features discussed in the one video I've watched were impressive.

 

[calokie]

ask the millions of TJ/XJ/WJ/JK/JL/JT drivers

You forgot the FJ80 drivers

 

[doc5339]

I’m in Boston. The mountains are in CO. There is a lot of interstate between me and the mountains. Furthermore, my 200 is my daily driver, not a toy that I only use on the weekend.

Excellent point and we experience similar long haul highway driving from Central North Carolina out west to the Rockies. The Ineos Grenadier is pretty expensive not to have Adaptive Cruise Control as an option.

As mentioned the traction control is not fully baked, stock turning circle is terrible, has tons of electronic nags (remind y'all of anything?), interior wheel well trims are slanted inboard instead of flat (sucks for storage), Direct Injected Turbo I6 (at least iForce Max also is Port Injected as well as DI), Made in France (no comment).

Grenadiers look cool almost a synthesis of 70-series, G-Wagon, and OG Defender 110, but kinda lame. Land Rover is actually building (uber expensive) Defender classics again with modern powertrains and interiors. When I looked hard at the Grenadier, I stopped short of test driving and test drove a G550 instead. Grenadier does NOT get you: V8, gauge cluster for driver, diesel option, manual option, high duty cycle engine with wide parts availability, rear center armrest so why is it so awesome other than it looks like an old Defender and is built a bit better (no super hard to do)?

I would go 2013-2015 G550 all day before even a used Grenadier.