3FE vs 2F

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Yspen said:
Thanks , but I have already imported a 3F-e head at a cost of $1500. Most of the other part has reached me as well at additional cost . As you can see I want a 2F-E and willing to pay for it.
The easier solution would have been TBi .

>>>And cheaper.<<<

Who wants easy ? Furthermore I prefer Toyota parts. Biggest reason for conversion is economy and not power . Other reason is that I am considering Turbo and that needs efi. ( I doubt that will happen even though I already have the turbo sourced )
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Me. I wants easy.

I did a V-8 conversion in the '70s on a FJ55 that was an absolute nightmare. Took a year and a half, fully exceeded my engineering skills so went to a shop and cost $4700 overall for a vehicle for which I'd paid $5200 just a couple years before. To top it off I ended up with a Toyota Blazer. If I had it to do over I'd have rebuilt or replaced the blown F and would still have that rig today.
 
Mark W said:
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As to the TBI conversions... GM TBI on top of an OEM 2F intake will never stand up to the multiport system on the 3FE

Mark...
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Cost comparison?
What is your estimate for a complete 2FE conversion using 3FE parts?
Ease of parts acquisition?
It sounds like I have to buy another vehicle to get all the parts in one place or chase down all the required stuff and hope it's all compatable?
Ease of install?
I've heard you have to pull the whole wiring harness out of the dash, true?

Out of morbid curiosity who builds aftermarket manifolds for a 2F, Offy for one, and what would happen with a TBI on top of one of those?
 
A 2FE is a lot easier than a 3FE swap. Yes you do need to pull the harness which is usually done for you if you buy an engine or head, ECU, etc... from a fellow mudder. You do need to pull the head but that's not a lot more work than pulling all the manifolds off to swap them for a TBI conversion.

You have to give it a few signals and splice into a few others to get the dash working but no harder than installing a stereo.

I would say browse the parts for sale section and see what 3FE conversion parts sell for. Keep in mind that the 2FE is going to likely give you a significant increase in performance over a TBI conversion on a 2F which, by the way, will require the same wire splicing as the 3FE swap.

Frank
 
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At what point with a 2FE do you have to start running higher octane? IE what's the highest compression you can do and stay with regular?
Any chance you can even stroke it a little further to get even more torque?
 
elripster said:
A 2FE is a lot easier than a 3FE swap. Yes you do need to pull the harness which is usually done for you if you buy an engine or head, ECU, etc... from a fellow mudder. You do need to pull the head but that's not a lot more work than pulling all the manifolds off to swap them for a TBI conversion.

You have to give it a few signals and splice into a few others to get the dash working but no harder than installing a stereo.

I would say browse the parts for sale section and see what 3FE conversion parts sell for. Keep in mind that the 2FE is going to likely give you a significant increase in performance over a TBI conversion on a 2F which, by the way, will require the same wire splicing as the 3FE swap.

Frank
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You don't have to pull the manifolds to install TBI, the adapter bolts onto the stock intake manifold.
 
Sure but then you are stuck with a 2F manifold. What are you trying to gain here? Performance? Get rid of carb quirks? Without a better flowing intake, had and exhaust manifold you just aren't going to get a big performance increase. Air has to be able to get in, through, and out of the engine. 2F's, and many engines of that generation, don't do that well. I guess what I'm suggesting is that while the TBI might make for easier starts and maybe better high altitude operation it's not likely the truck will be much faster for all of your work and time. Maybe it will but it's hard to see it.

Frank
 
elripster said:
Sure but then you are stuck with a 2F manifold. What are you trying to gain here? Performance? Get rid of carb quirks? Without a better flowing intake, had and exhaust manifold you just aren't going to get a big performance increase. Air has to be able to get in, through, and out of the engine. 2F's, and many engines of that generation, don't do that well. I guess what I'm suggesting is that while the TBI might make for easier starts and maybe better high altitude operation it's not likely the truck will be much faster for all of your work and time. Maybe it will but it's hard to see it.

Frank
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1) I've got a 27 year old carburetor that was designed to run with a bunch of magical vacuum operated smog whizbangs that are now gone. Yes, getting rid of carb quirks is a consideration.

2) Not particularly looking for a big performance increase. I'm happy enough with the performance of the 2f--it's a trail rig, not a freeway flyer and the 2F is very good on the trail. If I wanted a performance increase I'd slap in a V-8. Cost rules out a V-8.

3) A few more mpgs would be nice but most of what I read tells me that's not really happening with a 2FE or TBI either and if that's what I was really after I'd go diesel. Cost rules out a diesel.

4) As you've guessed by now, cost is a major consideration. The TBI kit from AFI is $1300. Cruiser Concepts will install it if I don't want to for $500. The wiring is a straight up plug in, the computer is flashed to my parameters, it comes with a GM HEI Dizzy w/spark control, fuel pump and everything else. I don't have to tear into my existing wiring harness, either.

4A) No one seems to be able to figure out what a 2FE conversion is going to cost but I'm gonna need a head, computer, wiring harness, fuel pump and assorted other stuff. Most of that will be used whereas the AFI kit is all new stuff. How much does this stuff cost? I keep hearing 'donor vehicle' mentioned, how much does that cost? Why is it a parts rig and what doesn't work? How much of that am I going to have to throw away?

5) Everyone I've talked to or read about that has a 3FE is happy. Everyone I've talked to that has a TBI is happy.

So it really boils down to this: How much does each cost and how much screwing around is necessary to get it put together. Pretty sure that means it boils down to TBI.
 
freepowder said:
1) So it really boils down to this: How much does each cost and how much screwing around is necessary to get it put together. Pretty sure that means it boils down to TBI.
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Rough prices from my local upull (where I bought my junk), if they had a truck right now.

Head: $40
Upper intake: $26
Lower intake: $26
Air flow meter: $20
Throttle body: $35
Fuel injectors: $60
Fuel rail: $7
Cowl harness: $16
Engine harness: $16
Fuel tank with pump: $45, or
Fuel pump, external: $170 (from Summit)
Ox sensors, new Denso: $120 ($60ea)
ECU: $40
Coil/Ignitor: $11
Distributor: $31
Fuel line, frame to filter: $35 (new, FZJ80 application)
Fuel line, filter to engine: $10
Circuit open relay: $6
Main relay: $6

So, just the big stuff is less than $600. Of course there will be other things that can add up. Spark plugs, fuel filter, vacuum lines, coolant lines, head gasket come to mind. Don't know if the 3FE air box will fit into an FJ60. If so add $30. There will also need to be some exhaust fabrication.

Wiring into the existing harness includes:
  • EFI fuse (unswitched)
  • Ignition fuse (switched)
  • Speed sensor
  • Neutral start switch (just splice and ignore)
  • 4WD switch
  • Brake light switch
  • Ground
  • A/C
  • Check engine light
 
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Then there are the things that would be good to do since you have all the bits apart.

Clean fuel injectors
Bore throttle body
Rebuild head
 
You can buy a running 3FE and take it apart for 6-900 bucks. I have seen "2FE" conversion parts pulled from the engine for sale but you have to monitor the classified forum.

The 3FE air box will fit just fine in a 60. If you get one from a 62 it's really easy. Getting one from an 80 takes the drilling of 2 holes (one lines up).

Speaking of air boxes you'll want to source one of those if you do the TBI conversion I'd think. Not much point it reusing the restrictive stock filter housing.


I guess it really comes down to simplicity then? It seems like cost tips towards 2FE or it's about a wash.

Frank
 
elripster said:
You can buy a running 3FE and take it apart for 6-900 bucks.
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Crap, didn't think of that option. A complete engine from the upull is $250. Much less than the bits a la carte. I need to keep that in mind next time.
 
Hell, I can buy a comple FJ62 beater for 6-9 hundred. Double hell, I have rigs here that people have given me so that they did not have to pay to have them towed away. ;)


For the OP, if you want to put a GM TBI conversion on your rig, go for it. It sounds to me like yu would be perfectly happy if you just got your carb working properly. No reason for there to be any quirks at all with a late model OEM carb, desmogged or not.

How many people have you actually talked to running a GM TBI on their 2F? That is gonna be a pretty small sampling I expect.

You keep saying that no one can tell you how much a 2FE conversion costs.... that is because.. as we have pointed out, it all depends on you abilities and on finding the parts cheap. The low end is almost free. I can not imagine the high end being any more than the cost of the "kit" you mention. But you are gonna have to take things apart, put things together, do a few minor mods and alterations and spend time thinking and learning. From your comments about your V8 swap I am not gonna urge you to tear into your motor and start combining parts.

I am gonna urge you to just take or send your carb to one of th guys who make them run right as a matter of routine and save your money that you would spend on a TBI "kit".


Mark...
 
Mark W said:
Hell, I can buy a comple FJ62 beater for 6-9 hundred. Double hell, I have rigs here that people have given me so that they did not have to pay to have them towed away. ;)


For the OP, if you want to put a GM TBI conversion on your rig, go for it. It sounds to me like yu would be perfectly happy if you just got your carb working properly. No reason for there to be any quirks at all with a late model OEM carb, desmogged or not.

How many people have you actually talked to running a GM TBI on their 2F? That is gonna be a pretty small sampling I expect.

You keep saying that no one can tell you how much a 2FE conversion costs.... that is because.. as we have pointed out, it all depends on you abilities and on finding the parts cheap. The low end is almost free. I can not imagine the high end being any more than the cost of the "kit" you mention. But you are gonna have to take things apart, put things together, do a few minor mods and alterations and spend time thinking and learning. From your comments about your V8 swap I am not gonna urge you to tear into your motor and start combining parts.

I am gonna urge you to just take or send your carb to one of th guys who make them run right as a matter of routine and save your money that you would spend on a TBI "kit".


Mark...
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Ok.

Just one more question: Is anything to be gained by a GM hei distributor over
stock.
 
If you don't like the desmogged Aisan carb you can get a Trollhole carb. That would be your cheapest option, and there's nothing wrong with a carb'd trail rig, for what it sounds like you're doing.
 
The Toyota distributor lasts longer and it better built. Recurve it, don't replace it. Plus it is water proof, sealed and vented. That is a big deal for any off road rig used anywhere things get wet.


Mark...
 
Well, I guess that's pretty well covered. Thanks for all the input.

I think at this point I'll stick with the carb, got PMs in to Trollhole and JimC on carbs and dizzys, no word back yet.

Just a few final points:

I live in the sticks in SW Colorado, there's one FJ60 in the local junkyard and it's pretty useless for parts. There's a couple other junkyards nearby I need to check out. To my knowledge there's no parts quality FJ62s within, well, a long way. I suspect costs will run a lot higher because of these issues for a 2FE conversion.
I don't have a full shop to work in, just a driveway and while I'm air tool capable, I don't have all the tools in the world.
I'm no welder or fabrication wizard and I'm not great with electronics. I'm a decent shade tree mechanic and nothing more.

Key factors for the conversion remain:
--Better gas mileage. This seems to be a wash for 2FE, TBI or carb.
--Insensitivity to altitude. A wash for 2FE or TBI.
--Cost of components. Pretty close to a wash, but 2FE will be used stuff and TBI new.
--Simplicity of installation. TBI probably.
All that in mind, should I go with FI in the future, chances are I'd go for the TBI.

Thanks again for all the input.
 
freepowder said:
Well, I guess that's pretty well covered. Thanks for all the input.

I think at this point I'll stick with the carb, got PMs in to Trollhole and JimC on carbs and dizzys, no word back yet.

Just a few final points:

I live in the sticks in SW Colorado, there's one FJ60 in the local junkyard and it's pretty useless for parts. There's a couple other junkyards nearby I need to check out. To my knowledge there's no parts quality FJ62s within, well, a long way. I suspect costs will run a lot higher because of these issues for a 2FE conversion.
I don't have a full shop to work in, just a driveway and while I'm air tool capable, I don't have all the tools in the world.
I'm no welder or fabrication wizard and I'm not great with electronics. I'm a decent shade tree mechanic and nothing more.

Key factors for the conversion remain:
--Better gas mileage. This seems to be a wash for 2FE, TBI or carb.
--Insensitivity to altitude. A wash for 2FE or TBI.
--Cost of components. Pretty close to a wash, but 2FE will be used stuff and TBI new.
--Simplicity of installation. TBI probably.
All that in mind, should I go with FI in the future, chances are I'd go for the TBI.

Thanks again for all the input.
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There are some threads about GM TBI on a 2F. One of them was by a friend of mine, as I recall his screen name is Sgt. Bilko. I retrofitted TBI onto an engine I already had, the process is no different. Given the freakish amount of vehicles piling up in wrecking yards with GM TBI, getting the parts is only a matter of getting your hands dirty. The process is not difficult, if I can do it, almost anybody can. He is very pleased with it as am I. It is my preferred mod for the 2F, replacing my old method of desmog, header, Weber (you have to know how to tune it) and a distributor recurve which worked very well for me for many, many years. In fact, another friend (brother to the TBI guy) has that setup on his Cruiser and is so pleased with the way it runs that he has no intention of doing anything else to it.
 
As noted above, I'm going to stick with the stock carb and dizzy for now.
FWIW, After a near total desmog--everything gone except PCV & Evap--dizzy set up for permanent high altitude I ran a full tank of gas through it and go 15.17 mpg. Not bad for 298,xxx miles. Miles traveled was off the GPS.
 
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