2024 GX/Prado Release and Discussion (2 Viewers)

[carboncycles]

N/m....Happy Friday.

 

[m4hk33]

If the above were true and toyota marketing/admin always covers their bases/makes great decisions then explain how they bolluxed the LC soooooo badly in the US that they pulled it from the US entirely?

Jeep sells over 1100 units every month and has for YEARS
Ford has sold ~250,000 bronco's since its re-launch

If thats not a target rich environment to offer a Toyota competitor (ie "FJ73" NOT a rolling living room) well.....then.....Toyota deserves to fail on this one

I think that while Toyota will continue to crush the boring appliance segment of the automobile world, I think they will continue to struggle compared to the domestics. I think the toyota sold a ton of LC's when it really was without any peers. Jeep would of been the closest competitor but have always been plagued by Chrysler engineering.

30 years ago, the domestics didn't produce a vehicle that could compete with an LC be it on the trail, or day to day reliability. 30 years ago there really wasn't anything interesting on the market.

Fast forward to today, Reliability has improved dramatically across the board and at least in the truck segment, everything is available with lockers and crawl control and more often than not more fuel efficient than anything Toyota has available.

Everything is expensive today, and I am willing to forgo some theoretical reliability on a new vehicle that is under warranty if they nail the design, especially considering that Toyota loves voiding warranties of modified vehicles.

 

[UZJ100LC]

No, it’s not strange.

The cost isn’t just the engineering to design the transmission. Manufacturers need to crash test, emissions test, and fuel economy test each drivetrain variation for a vehicle. The Taco sold over 200,000 vehicles in 2022. With that much volume, Toyota can amortize the testing cost over enough vehicles to make it worthwhile to spend the money to federalize the Taco with a manual transmission.

But the Prado won’t sell in those numbers. The testing cost will be the same, but instead of amortizing the testing cost over 200,000+ vehicles, they would have to amortime that cost over 5,000 to 40,000 Prados (planned quantities depend upon who you talk to).

The higher the volume of sales, the more drivetrain options the manufacturer can economically support. At smaller volumes, they can only economically support a single drivetrain (unless it is a very high priced vehicle).

It is simple math. If the testing costs $50,000,000 per vehicle-drivetrain and Taco sales are 200,000, then the testing cost per vehicle is $50M / 200,000 = $250. If Prado sales are 40,000 then the testing cost per vehicle is $50M / 40,000 = $1,250. Now do you see the problem?

but if they estimate only 5% MT will be sold, that number isnt 200,000....its 10,000.
Now do the math, what you are saying cannot be correct or else it would have been cost prohibitive for the taco as well.

also testing for this drivetrain has already been done, it would only take federalizing costs to put this drive train in the new LC or 4R

 

[jayp2]

I think that while Toyota will continue to crush the boring appliance segment of the automobile world, I think they will continue to struggle compared to the domestics. I think the toyota sold a ton of LC's when it really was without any peers. Jeep would of been the closest competitor but have always been plagued by Chrysler engineering.

30 years ago, the domestics didn't produce a vehicle that could compete with an LC be it on the trail, or day to day reliability. 30 years ago there really wasn't anything interesting on the market.

Fast forward to today, Reliability has improved dramatically across the board and at least in the truck segment, everything is available with lockers and crawl control and more often than not more fuel efficient than anything Toyota has available.

Everything is expensive today, and I am willing to forgo some theoretical reliability on a new vehicle that is under warranty if they nail the design, especially considering that Toyota loves voiding warranties of modified vehicles.

Lots to agree with in your post

I disagree however that there wasnt anything interesting on the market

I think there were lots of interesting vehicles being made.....(various 70 series, Patrol etc) not just by Toyota but many of the others as well.

They just chose not to bring them to the US for a host of reasons

Same applies today...Toyota, Nissan as well as other car manufacturers make interesting vehicles......they just dont bring them to the US

 

[onemanarmy]

I think that while Toyota will continue to crush the boring appliance segment of the automobile world, I think they will continue to struggle compared to the domestics. I think the toyota sold a ton of LC's when it really was without any peers. Jeep would of been the closest competitor but have always been plagued by Chrysler engineering.

30 years ago, the domestics didn't produce a vehicle that could compete with an LC be it on the trail, or day to day reliability. 30 years ago there really wasn't anything interesting on the market.

Fast forward to today, Reliability has improved dramatically across the board and at least in the truck segment, everything is available with lockers and crawl control and more often than not more fuel efficient than anything Toyota has available.

Everything is expensive today, and I am willing to forgo some theoretical reliability on a new vehicle that is under warranty if they nail the design, especially considering that Toyota loves voiding warranties of modified vehicles.

30 years ago:
Bronco
Wrangler/CJ
Grand Wagoneer
Blazer
Suburban
Variety of mid and large sized trucks

These are all the domestic reasons that the 60 series never really took off mainstream. Only a 6 cylinder was offered and it had a relatively high price point.

Toyota can see clearly what sells here in the utility/offroad space....they clean up on the 4runner.

 

[M1911]

also testing for this drivetrain has already been done, it would only take federalizing costs to put this drive train in the new LC or 4R

No, the testing occurs in each vehicle. Fuel economy and emissions testing is don't on a naked powertrain, it is done on the vehicle.

 

[M1911]

I agree with the premise of your argument but you saying that it costs $50M to test each model misses the mark. Official tests are paid for by either NHTSA or IIHS, which cost ~$10 million each year per agency for 90 to 125 tests annually (thats 90 to 125 models annually), or approximately $100K per vehicle. (see quotes and links below.)

Auto manufacturers may conduct their own development tests at labs such as Calspan Corporation. Each model requires approximately 9 tests total, if we are generous it may cost $50K-$100K per individual test (not model). If you failed a particular test during development you would retest that particular test, not all. So the cost to an auto manufacturer per model is on the order of $1M max per model or trim, not $50M.

I've worked in engineering product development and project management for my entire career, granted in a different industry, aerospace. However, aerospace testing far exceeds the costs of the automotive industry testing. If I ever had to give management an estimate for testing of $50M, my project would never be approved.

So updating your figures: If the testing costs $1M per vehicle-drivetrain and Taco sales are 200,000, then the testing cost per vehicle is $1M / 200,000 = $5. If Prado sales are 40,000 then the testing cost per vehicle is $1M / 40,000 = $25. Now do you see how the cost is reasonable?

NHTSA - 3 crash tests (frontal, side and rollover tests)

IIHS - 6 crash tests (Driver's-side small-overlap front, moderate-overlap front, side, roof-strength, passenger-side small-overlap test, and head-restraint crash tests)

"former NHTSA acting and deputy administrator, says that although the agency might leave some vehicles out, focusing on top-selling cars is a wise move, considering that it pays for the cars it crash-tests, which can cost $10 million each year. For the most part, the IIHS also pays for the cars it tests."

The federal agency now conducts 90 to 125 tests annually

That only covers crash testing. Epa emissions and fuel economy testing also occurs. Manufacturers do their own development crash testing to ensure that the vehicle behaves properly during a crash. I suspect that they do crash testing for each different engine, not sure if they do it for each engine/transmission combination, but I suspect that they do.

As for the cost, manufacturers do make decisions even down to $5 per vehicle. That's how they make money. by pinching pennies.

 

[TexasFunRunner]

Fast forward to today, Reliability has improved dramatically across the board and at least in the truck segment

 

[Jetboy]

EPA ratings are pretty cheap/easy because they are self certify in most cases and Toyota already has all of the testing ready to go. Probably costs almost nothing in marginal cost to test another transmission option.

Crash testing by NHTSA is not required for all models, engines, or transmission configurations. Many car models never get NHTSA tests because of the relatively low volume. For example the Land Rover Defender - it has not ever been crash tested by NHTSA or IIHS that I'm aware of. Still legal to sell.

I don't think the cost of regulatory compliance matters to the decision to offer an MT much or at all. It's the cost of the logistics of having another transmission on the production line and engineering all of the stuff that goes with it - a firewall with a spot for a clutch, all of the plumbing, the wiring harness, the new dash display with all of the idiot lights, and on and on. It's not a nominal task to add a MT, so it requires significant incremental additional sales to make the business case for it. If all of the buyers of an MT would otherwise buy the AT anyway - there's no reason to do it. And if it's only a handful of buyers who would only buy with an MT - it also isn't worth it. I'm actually quite surprised that Toyota is going to keep it in the Taco.

The Bronco makes a lot more sense - it's great for publicity and free media attention, and it is an enthusiast vehicle that has high margins and may drive additional sales. And the lion's share of the engineering for the MT is shared with the Hilux - between the two it's north of a million sales per year and there are plenty of markets where the Hilux buyers would not buy an AT model so Toyota had to do the heavy lift already. If there were markets where a Prado or LC300 had an MT - Then I think you'd see one offered in the USA also. Since the LC300 dropped the MT option globally, I'd be very surprised to see one in the USA version.

 

[jayp2]

Anybody else want to wring hands and make excuses why Toyota shouldnt offer choices people want and that the market broadly demands/consumers borrow copious amounts of money to buy?

"But but but....the planets arent in allignment so....the manual transmission must be sacrificed."

/sarcasm

 

[ThRiLlGmYr]

The way I approach this discussion is what I think Toyota will do and not what I want them to do. I think that is a more interesting exercise.

 

[Jetboy]

Lots of discussion - but none about what's probably the biggest most important advance in offroad technology in this generation: gas shock mounted seats! Will the LC250 get gas shock mounted seats? And if so - will it one-up the Taco and use remote reservoir gas shocks in the seat suspension?

And - will it have "rated" tow hooks. Because - if it's just a very robust welded steel loop and not a red painted rated tow hook - it's plainly not safe.

 

[ThRiLlGmYr]

Lots of discussion - but none about what's probably the biggest most important advance in offroad technology in this generation: gas shock mounted seats! Will the LC250 get gas shock mounted seats? And if so - will it one-up the Taco and use remote reservoir gas shocks in the seat suspension?

And - will it have "rated" tow hooks. Because - if it's just a very robust welded steel loop and not a red painted rated tow hook - it's plainly not safe.

Sorry, but the most important advancement in off road technology was the split rear door tailgate, and until that returns to the LC nothing else matters. But seriously, I think those seats are more of a Baja runner/TRD Pro feature and I expect the LC will be equipped more like a Trailhunter edition.

I do expect those seats to make their way into the 4Runner TRD-Pro.

 

[MeWantLC]

One can dream, and take the current Prado line in other countries either from South America or Australia to make some predictions: Three or four levels/trims, with the highest for example in Australia being the Kakadu (in Colombia there are three trim levels for example, the VX being the highest), which it is a Lexus GX pretty much in the USA. So, if we eliminate the highest level of the "Prado" line and leave it to the Lexus GX recently announced, then we end up with two or three more trims. If I had a choice, I will pick the lowest trim grade Prado GX, but with all the off-road capabilities. Currently the Prado GX does not offer KDSS, that is a bit of a let down for me, as I have enjoyed it a lot in both my 4Runners and LC/Lexus'.

I am certainly very puzzled to see how Toyota will position the new LC in the USA as a Prado, and REALLY hoping they finally make it a more affordable choice of an excellent off/on road SUV with a down to earth trim. I enjoy the nice extra things inside in my LC, but I would be way happier than now with all the greatness of the legendary LC sans the "extra" expensive stuff.

Not really sure how much MPG we could really gain from the new V6 Turbo engines, but I also really hope at least 5 to 7 MPG improvement. Much rather prefer a simpler NA beast, but it is a trend we will not be able to change, the boat has sailed there... I would take a bet on Toyota and trust they know what they are doing, and hope the V6 Turbo becomes as legendary as the engines we have seen. This new idea of a LC-Prado in the USA comes at the right time for me. I have been planing to start gearing towards a Pan-American trip (it will take time, but I needed to start one day and somewhere, so need to be patient), and the 5 to 7 mpg difference in gas and money make a big one once you are talking +40K miles.

I am not sure if the new Lexus GX price has been announced, but seeing the 600's in the $100k's I can only guess the Lexus GX is going to be $80K or so? So, yes. I really hope a say "USA Prado GX or GXL" is offered to us here, and that it is not going to be a $80K truck, but more like a say $50K or so. Down to earth with basic interior but all the greatness of the Legendary Land Cruiser ! And against my own reflexions and reasoning for not getting a brand new vehicle, I will buy one, even though I have my quails about the Turbo engines...

One can only hope....

G.

 

[m4hk33]

One can dream, and take the current Prado line in other countries either from South America or Australia to make some predictions: Three or four levels/trims, with the highest for example in Australia being the Kakadu (in Colombia there are three trim levels for example, the VX being the highest), which it is a Lexus GX pretty much in the USA. So, if we eliminate the highest level of the "Prado" line and leave it to the Lexus GX recently announced, then we end up with two or three more trims. If I had a choice, I will pick the lowest trim grade Prado GX, but with all the off-road capabilities. Currently the Prado GX does not offer KDSS, that is a bit of a let down for me, as I have enjoyed it a lot in both my 4Runners and LC/Lexus'.

I am certainly very puzzled to see how Toyota will position the new LC in the USA as a Prado, and REALLY hoping they finally make it a more affordable choice of an excellent off/on road SUV with a down to earth trim. I enjoy the nice extra things inside in my LC, but I would be way happier than now with all the greatness of the legendary LC sans the "extra" expensive stuff.

Not really sure how much MPG we could really gain from the new V6 Turbo engines, but I also really hope at least 5 to 7 MPG improvement. Much rather prefer a simpler NA beast, but it is a trend we will not be able to change, the boat has sailed there... I would take a bet on Toyota and trust they know what they are doing, and hope the V6 Turbo becomes as legendary as the engines we have seen. This new idea of a LC-Prado in the USA comes at the right time for me. I have been planing to start gearing towards a Pan-American trip (it will take time, but I needed to start one day and somewhere, so need to be patient), and the 5 to 7 mpg difference in gas and money make a big one once you are talking +40K miles.

I am not sure if the new Lexus GX price has been announced, but seeing the 600's in the $100k's I can only guess the Lexus GX is going to be $80K or so? So, yes. I really hope a say "USA Prado GX or GXL" is offered to us here, and that it is not going to be a $80K truck, but more like a say $50K or so. Down to earth with basic interior but all the greatness of the Legendary Land Cruiser ! And against my own reflexions and reasoning for not getting a brand new vehicle, I will buy one, even though I have my quails about the Turbo engines...

One can only hope....

G.

The difference between a stripped-down LC for $50k and a Maxed out GX for $80K is going to be relatively minor. The difference is going to boil down to seat covers, traction, a locker/crawl control and maybe a couple extra speakers and a larger display/switch gear.

The question is how are they going to price the stuff that makes the LC interesting. For example, the 4runner runs $40K to $54. and to get it equipped for off road stuff you are coming in right around the mid point or 46k.

Also, what is going to be the new LC's poison pill? Toyota has a fairly noticeable track record of undermining its own vehicles.

For Example, the 4runner and GX are the same vehicle, The GX with a solid power plant but no off-road options, The 4runner has really good off road options but has a dog of an engine.

In the larger SUV segment, The Sequioa has a great power train, and really good offroad options, but has abysmal cargo capacity, the Grand Highlander has really great cargo capacity but has no offroad options.

I don't care how good the LC is, if they go out of there way and drop the next gen Tacoma engine rather than the tundra engine, that an automatic disqualifier just like the Sequoias cargo area. The GX is interesting because it has the Tundra engine and an offroad package. Considering that you can get a Tundra, with Offroad package and 3 inch factory lift for $65k, i am not sure how interested i am in dropping 80k on the smaller GX.

65k feels about right in terms of where i would value an offroad capable toyota.

 

[TheRealDeal124]

Definitely buying Kakadu badges if the trim doesn't make it to the US.

 

[Brown98LC]

So I found the model codes for the Next Prado/LC250 on the Toyota Europe tech website....

GDJ250 ( 1GD-FTV - Carryover)

TRJ250 ( 2TR-FE - Carryover)

TJA250 ... on the website the engine code is L4T.. I am assuming this is placeholder for what really is the T2A-FTA - even if it is, then I think the hybrid and non hybrid share the same engine code so we can't tell yet which version..though I think for the US the hybrid is probably almost certain.

This is what I could find so far..but no more 1GR for the first time in over 20 years on the Prado.


I couldn't find any other details as nothing has been uploaded yet.

 

[MeWantLC]

So I found the model codes for the Next Prado/LC250 on the Toyota Europe tech website....

GDJ250 ( 1GD-FTV - Carryover)
View attachment 3362686



TRJ250 ( 2TR-FE - Carryover)
View attachment 3362688




TJA250 ... on the website the engine code is L4T.. I am assuming this is placeholder for what really is the T2A-FTA - even if it is, then I think the hybrid and non hybrid share the same engine code so we can't tell yet which version..though I think for the US the hybrid is probably almost certain.
View attachment 3362689



This is what I could find so far..but no more 1GR for the first time in over 20 years on the Prado.


I couldn't find any other details as nothing has been uploaded yet.

Thank you!

Ok, so it looks like three trims in EU. I would hope USA would have at least two trims, but very doubtful... Probably just one , and the highest level, perhaps with two engine options with the Turbo V6 and the Hybrid. Man, I wish so bad they would offer the stripped down version in the USA, priced in between the highest luxurious trimmed T4R, and the Lexus GX ! .

 

[Hiluxforever]

Thank you!

Ok, so it looks like three trims in EU. I would hope USA would have at least two trims, but very doubtful... Probably just one , and the highest level, perhaps with two engine options with the Turbo V6 and the Hybrid. Man, I wish so bad they would offer the stripe down version in the USA, priced in between the highest luxurious trimmed T4R, and the Lexus GX ! .

I agree, and that way one could fully build it out. I would like to have a basic sunroof, though. No panoramic BS.

 

[MeWantLC]

I agree, and that way one could fully build it out. I would like to have a basic sunroof, though. No panoramic BS.

Would be the world. ! But ain't gonna happen, unfortunately. They will do ONE trim , and maybe two engine options, tops. .

Wish list? Lowest level (read it: cheapest), with the diesel engine -dream-.