Guys have tracked it. There is improvement. I just have never tracked it. And being thst I’m ‘biased’ it doesn’t matter if I do. You should track it for yourself and see.
12 Hole Injector Upgrade - Finally Tested
- Thread starter suprarx7nut
- Start date
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It’s not an AFR sensor. It’s an o2 sensor. Huge difference. Afr sensors allow the ecu to know the exact afr. O2 sensors allow the ecu to know if the truck is running rich, lean, or stoic.
An o2 sensor is barbaric by today’s standards. That’s why there can be a big swing in oxygen content with little change in fuel trims, yet the truck still feels better and more responsive to drive with more oxygen. This is why I recommend adding an extra 10% ethanol to your already e10 gasoline.
There is no way to measure this apparently. You just have to drive it. LOL.
fair enough I will give that an o2 sensor for fuel trim will not be as precise as an af sensor due to the o2 being a narrow band sensor and the af being a wide band
Loll.
alright buddy call me an ass all you want but when you tell these guys their tests are invalid because “the truck feels better with 12 hole injectors” and provide zero evidence and when pressed on it you can’t back up your claim and avoid the question then something’s fishy. I will believe the people with the data and not some dude on the internet claiming all sorts of things. There is such a thing as a placebo effect and maybe your product is causing that. Who knows but I’ll put my trust in the guys that have the numbers to back up their claims.
I don’t have a dog in this fight I just thought your responses were ridiculous enough to call you on them.
Loll.
There is such a thing as a placebo effect and maybe your product is causing that. Who knows but I’ll put my trust in the guys that have the numbers to back up their claims.
I don’t have a dog in this fight I just thought your responses were ridiculous enough to call you on them. ✌✌
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but what you’re saying doesn’t really matter. You have never tested 4 hole versus 12 hole. You’re making assumptions and or going off what you’ve read that was written by complete strangers on the internet.
Then you call the complete stranger you’re cynicism has labeled as a crook, a crook. I’m not calling you an ass to get even with you, I’m pointing out the fact that you’re an ass simply because of the fact that you’re an ass.
That said, I’ve never put down or attacked a single thing any of these ‘experts’ have said. I don’t think they’re posting to hurt me, the community or anybody else, they truly are trying to be helpful. And I think that they wholeheartedly believe what they’re saying. And they believe that their findings are correct. And I appreciate and respect their points of view. All that said, that is my point of view as well.
The difference between me and them is the fact that I have been tuning 2uz since 2003. They haven’t. There’s things that they don’t know about 2uz. Me pointing that out does not make me a crook. You accusing of being a crook once again, thst makes you an ass.
Well, that’s a good start.
Study up on what it means to be an adaptive memory ecu. That is a huge variable that you’re not considering in your ‘testing’.
For example, If you’re making a change then test immediately after said change, you only see how the ecu reacts to said change now; Not after it has adapted. I realize that has already been shot down by an ‘expert’ but I promise you that makes a difference in how the truck drives and it is not measurable by strapping it on a dyno and using some software to analyze some 30k points of data yada yada.
The ecu is able to change how the truck drives based on outside influences. I’m either not explaining it correctly, or I apparently have no credibility since I sell injectors and make $30 profit (literally chump change) on a set which makes me a crook. Lol.
alright, a couple things to address here.
Please show me where I called you a crook directly? I’ve called out your claims, and mentioned how you have stake in the product they’re testing but called you a crook that is something I haven’t done.
let me set the stage of my perspective for you. I have no idea who these guys are that have done the testing, full disclosure I have talked with Supra once or twice on something but beyond that both you and these guys are strangers on the internet to me.
if I understand you correctly you want me to trust what your saying (a stranger on the internet with no data I can look at) over other strangers on the internet who have data to back up their claims?
if you had numbers or data beyond your claim that it just feels better then I would absolutely look at what you have and form my own opinion but the fact that you came into this thread claiming these guys testing is invalid because the data can’t show how the truck feels with 12 hole injectors.
If you claim your 12 hole injectors are better than the 4 hole and make a real different then that’s your opinion and there’s nothing wrong with that, but doesn’t give you the right to s*** on these guys hard work with nothing to back it up.
Re-read post #95. That’s where my respect for you was gone. To call somebody dishonest when you have no idea who I am is where you messed up. Your opinion of me is that I am a crook because of my attempt to help newbies/ ‘experts’ reading this understand how a 2uz works. I don’t expect you to trust me at all. And I don’t give a damn what your opinion of me is. But I will stand up for myself and point out who you are on a public forum so that others reading can form their own opinion.
I appreciate the fact that a couple of enthusiasts have got together with some engineering software and read obdII data to try to see if injectors are worth it or not. And I respect their findings. But their theory is incomplete as it doesn’t take into account several factors. Me pointing that out. And you and/or them not understanding how your trucks work is fine. It is what it is. But others reading this may be able to understand and not screw themselves out of this great mod.
I don’t have data nor have I done any more extensive testing than driveability and safety testing because it doesn’t matter. Dude!! This is a $300 mod. Either you have the money or you don’t. And I make $30 off it. I don’t really need $30 badly enough that I’m going to waste a bunch of time when you can clearly see just by driving the truck, it’s worth it LOL.
Go back and re-read every one of my posts. The one thing you’ll find on this forum and EVERYWHERE else that I post, my message is the same. Try it for yourself. Don’t take anybody’s word for it. That’s what I did. It started back in 2003. That’s when I bought my truck brand new. Said truck has been known as ‘untuneable’. You can’t install bigger injectors. You can’t reliably run boost. Even Toyota’s solution (trd supercharger) is considered unreliable. You can’t run e85. There weren’t even headers when I bought the truck.
Well, everybody was wrong
the truck was the prototype for JBA. It’s current list of mods is:440 cc injectors
Remote mount turbo 8psi
Long tube headers
05-06 tundra variable runner intake
Runs fully on e85
TurboSmart wastegate and BOV
Rear end from 07+ tundra running 4.88’s
33” tires
Long travel suspension designed by me
King triple bypasses on all 4 corners
Secondary fuel system designed my me
I may not be an engineer in a field other than automobiles LOL, but I do work on 2uz
I’ve already proven myself Over the years. And I’m not trying to ‘sell’ you or anybody else anything. I’m trying to help fellow enthusiasts enjoy their vehicles.Don’t believe me? (That was rhetorical I know you don’t and I don’t give a s***). TRY SOME OF THESE THINGS FOR YOUR SELF:
1. Randomly hard reset your ecu and watch how it drives sluggish for 50-100 miles then pops back to life
2. Add 10% more ethanol to your regular e10 but watch how it runs sluggish for 50-100 miles but then pops back to life better than it did without the ethanol.
3. Add 330cc injectors and watch how it runs sluggish for 50-100 miles then pops back to normal but driveability isn’t improved over 250/270 cc injectors.
4. Remove your trd tune from your trd blown truck and limit boost to 2psi versus Trd’s 6-7 and see how it makes your truck FASTER not slower with 5lbs less boost.
5. Install 12 hole injectors, let truck adapt for 50-100 miles and watch how it pops back to life better than it was with 4 hole injectors.
There’s many more examples that I’m sure you’ll think I’m making up too, so go try the above, and come up with other theories and also test them for yourself. That’s all I’m saying. Until you do, who the heck are you to say ‘it won’t work’ or better yet, who the eff are you to call me a crook, or in your own words ‘dishonest’ when you don’t even know what you’re talking about.
I’ve driven this truck from California to Myrtle beach with said mods. And from ca to co several times. Also ca to or and wa several times. All the while watching fuel trims. Afr. Boost pressur. I’ve watched it run like shiz depending on the fuels ethanol content until 50-100 miles when the ecu adapts. So while I don’t ‘have data’ supporting what I’m claiming, YOU haven’t tried the above and don’t have data supporting that I’m wrong
Let’s see some videos of YOUR truck on the dyno. Or how about going they knee high whoops at 60 mph? What about some simple on road testing? I’ll post mine below:
Turbo Tundra Cinders Whoops
4.7 tundra spoolin
Tundra 4.7 CompTurbo
While I’m not an engineer and I don’t care if a snowflake has hurt feelings, I’ll tell you straight up how your truck works because I know how it works. I am an enthusiast turned tuner with ideas that are not conventional and that’s what it takes to ‘tune’ our ‘untuneable’ trucks.
Based on that knowledge (and much more I would hope LOL)in my opinion, the testing done by the OP is inconclusive. Don’t believe me? Try them for yourself
I noticed a drastic difference when installing them in my truck for the first time. I replaced the stock 4 hole injectors that had over 200k miles on them and I never cleaned and reinstalled the 4-hole injectors so I have no comparison to a freshly cleaned set. My MPG hasn't changed either.
@dirtydeeds are you trying to take over this thread or something? Can't you be content with making a post and interacting with others instead of taking over pages of this thread with walls of text? My 1.8L 4-cylinder Miata makes more horsepower than your turbo Tundra, does that mean I know more than you?
You post didn’t help anybody. But I now know you can build a Miata. Thanks for sharing.
if anybody else has any actual questions about their truck or needs help my number is 760-877-4234
- Thread starter
- #112
See your email from Feb 2019, below. You said not to worry about the ECU reset with the injector swap because "there is nothing to relearn."
Has your opinion changed since seeing the test results?
Re-read post #95. That’s where my respect for you was gone. To call somebody dishonest when you have no idea who I am is where you messed up. Your opinion of me is that I am a crook because of my attempt to help newbies/ ‘experts’ reading this understand how a 2uz works. I don’t expect you to trust me at all. And I don’t give a damn what your opinion of me is. But I will stand up for myself and point out who you are on a public forum so that others reading can form their own opinion.
I appreciate the fact that a couple of enthusiasts have got together with some engineering software and read obdII data to try to see if injectors are worth it or not. And I respect their findings. But their theory is incomplete as it doesn’t take into account several factors. Me pointing that out. And you and/or them not understanding how your trucks work is fine. It is what it is. But others reading this may be able to understand and not screw themselves out of this great mod.
I don’t have data nor have I done any more extensive testing than driveability and safety testing because it doesn’t matter. Dude!! This is a $300 mod. Either you have the money or you don’t. And I make $30 off it. I don’t really need $30 badly enough that I’m going to waste a bunch of time when you can clearly see just by driving the truck, it’s worth it LOL.
Go back and re-read every one of my posts. The one thing you’ll find on this forum and EVERYWHERE else that I post, my message is the same. Try it for yourself. Don’t take anybody’s word for it. That’s what I did. It started back in 2003. That’s when I bought my truck brand new. Said truck has been known as ‘untuneable’. You can’t install bigger injectors. You can’t reliably run boost. Even Toyota’s solution (trd supercharger) is considered unreliable. You can’t run e85. There weren’t even headers when I bought the truck.
Well, everybody was wrong
440 cc injectors
Remote mount turbo 8psi
Long tube headers
05-06 tundra variable runner intake
Runs fully on e85
TurboSmart wastegate and BOV
Rear end from 07+ tundra running 4.88’s
33” tires
Long travel suspension designed by me
King triple bypasses on all 4 corners
Secondary fuel system designed my me
I may not be an engineer in a field other than automobiles LOL, but I do work on 2uz
Don’t believe me? (That was rhetorical I know you don’t and I don’t give a s***). TRY SOME OF THESE THINGS FOR YOUR SELF:
1. Randomly hard reset your ecu and watch how it drives sluggish for 50-100 miles then pops back to life
2. Add 10% more ethanol to your regular e10 but watch how it runs sluggish for 50-100 miles but then pops back to life better than it did without the ethanol.
3. Add 330cc injectors and watch how it runs sluggish for 50-100 miles then pops back to normal but driveability isn’t improved over 250/270 cc injectors.
4. Remove your trd tune from your trd blown truck and limit boost to 2psi versus Trd’s 6-7 and see how it makes your truck FASTER not slower with 5lbs less boost.
5. Install 12 hole injectors, let truck adapt for 50-100 miles and watch how it pops back to life better than it was with 4 hole injectors.
There’s many more examples that I’m sure you’ll think I’m making up too, so go try the above, and come up with other theories and also test them for yourself. That’s all I’m saying. Until you do, who the heck are you to say ‘it won’t work’ or better yet, who the eff are you to call me a crook, or in your own words ‘dishonest’ when you don’t even know what you’re talking about.
I’ve driven this truck from California to Myrtle beach with said mods. And from ca to co several times. Also ca to or and wa several times. All the while watching fuel trims. Afr. Boost pressur. I’ve watched it run like shiz depending on the fuels ethanol content until 50-100 miles when the ecu adapts. So while I don’t ‘have data’ supporting what I’m claiming, YOU haven’t tried the above and don’t have data supporting that I’m wrong
Let’s see some videos of YOUR truck on the dyno. Or how about going they knee high whoops at 60 mph? What about some simple on road testing? I’ll post mine below:
While I’m not an engineer and I don’t care if a snowflake has hurt feelings, I’ll tell you straight up how your truck works because I know how it works. I am an enthusiast turned tuner with ideas that are not conventional and that’s what it takes to ‘tune’ our ‘untuneable’ trucks.
Based on that knowledge (and much more I would hope LOL)in my opinion, the testing done by the OP is inconclusive. Don’t believe me? Try them for yourself
Yeah, I'm going to bow out. I'm genuinely sorry if you got upset with what I said, I never intended to make you so upset. I do want you to know that I never called you a crook, those are your words not mine.
Its obvious you know way more than me about the 2uz platform, and have much more knowledge about how these engines run and perform, I never once questioned that, and if it was received that way that was not my intention. I never claimed to know more than you. Hell, I'm just a dude that sits behind a computer all day and writes code.
My whole reason for engaging with you is you claimed that their data was wrong and you know its wrong because of your personal experience, and did not have anything to back that up other than the truck feels better that is what I had an issue with.
With all that being said I want you to know I dont mean any ill will towards you or your products and I wish you the best of luck.
I’m not upset. I’m making sure others reading this understand how their trucks work and see this side of the story also. Nothing I said was meant to get back at you or anything vindictive. Only meant to help with yours and others understanding.
the previous examples of letting the ecu adapt are for perspective, have you tried them yet or are you only posting to pick apart my side of this debate? Because if you haven’t tried what I’m telling you, you’re missing out on a lot of testing that could be used to help people and you yourself aren’t fully understanding our 2uz ecu.
in the case of a regular customer swapping from 4 hole to 12 hole there is no need to hard reset the ecu, it will adapt after 50-100 miles whether you hard reset or not, when it gets used to you stepping on the throttle less, in nearly every circumstance. Being the cc rating is the same, you don’t need to hard reset the ecu. Even with a different cc rating it would adapt, just the hard reset clears all past memory and helps the adaptation happen more smoothly/quickly. Either way the truck doesn’t drive right until it adapts and that’s what matters, as stated in the very first sentence of that email response.
In the case of testing and your asking for advice in a previous email I don’t know how to explain my answer I don’t know what I was thinking when I responded and it appears to be answered very quick and short as I saw no need to explain anything, I had already considered the proposed testing to be over thought and unnecessary.
That said, even after adapting I don’t know if your tests would show a difference or not since you are only strapping it down to a dyno and not driving it on the road.
try driving one and lemme know whatcha think.
As an original poster and 12 hole user i will chime in.
My mods are 12 hole injectors, K & N drop in filter and aftermarket muffler. My family has gone to the Oregon coast every year for a week in the summer for the last 10 years, always in the LX. Over the years the boys have grown from 40 and 60 lbs to 150 and 170 lbs now adding several hundred lbs to the rig. If you have ever taken the drive from the I5 to the coast in northern Oregon you are in for a treat. Curvy scenic roads with lots of hills. Since adding my 12 hole injectors my LX has definitely improved noticeably. Pulls the hills better, less downshifting all of this is confirmed by my butt dyno which i have been calibrating for 42 years
, all while netting an improvement of gas mileage by almost 1 mpg. I am a person who is always looking for ways to mod everything as stock is only the start to getting anything to perform at it's best. I don't make a dime by endorsing 12 hole injectors but want to let everyone on this great forum know that the drive-ability on our 100 series is nicely enhanced at the 25-75% throttle range. Getting ready to put a set in my sons 4.7 T4R.
I really appreciate all the work, time and expense that went into this Dyno testing and am not surprised by the results. Its the drive-ability where these injectors shine not the net numbers.
And lets face it guys, our hundy's are very fine vehicles but a noticeably improvement in performance is hard to find........
All the best
TLC Dan
BTW, if anyone wants to come up to north Spokane , Wa, you can drive my LX and see how it feels.......
My mods are 12 hole injectors, K & N drop in filter and aftermarket muffler. My family has gone to the Oregon coast every year for a week in the summer for the last 10 years, always in the LX. Over the years the boys have grown from 40 and 60 lbs to 150 and 170 lbs now adding several hundred lbs to the rig. If you have ever taken the drive from the I5 to the coast in northern Oregon you are in for a treat. Curvy scenic roads with lots of hills. Since adding my 12 hole injectors my LX has definitely improved noticeably. Pulls the hills better, less downshifting all of this is confirmed by my butt dyno which i have been calibrating for 42 years
, all while netting an improvement of gas mileage by almost 1 mpg. I am a person who is always looking for ways to mod everything as stock is only the start to getting anything to perform at it's best. I don't make a dime by endorsing 12 hole injectors but want to let everyone on this great forum know that the drive-ability on our 100 series is nicely enhanced at the 25-75% throttle range. Getting ready to put a set in my sons 4.7 T4R.I really appreciate all the work, time and expense that went into this Dyno testing and am not surprised by the results. Its the drive-ability where these injectors shine not the net numbers.
And lets face it guys, our hundy's are very fine vehicles but a noticeably improvement in performance is hard to find........
All the best
TLC Dan
BTW, if anyone wants to come up to north Spokane , Wa, you can drive my LX and see how it feels.......
- Thread starter
- #117
As an original poster and 12 hole user i will chime in.
My mods are 12 hole injectors, K & N drop in filter and aftermarket muffler. My family has gone to the Oregon coast every year for a week in the summer for the last 10 years, always in the LX. Over the years the boys have grown from 40 and 60 lbs to 150 and 170 lbs now adding several hundred lbs to the rig. If you have ever taken the drive from the I5 to the coast in northern Oregon you are in for a treat. Curvy scenic roads with lots of hills. Since adding my 12 hole injectors my LX has definitely improved noticeably. Pulls the hills better, less downshifting all of this is confirmed by my butt dyno which i have been calibrating for 42 years
I really appreciate all the work, time and expense that went into this Dyno testing and am not surprised by the results. Its the drive-ability where these injectors shine not the net numbers.
And lets face it guys, our hundy's are very fine vehicles but a noticeably improvement in performance is hard to find........
All the best
TLC Dan
BTW, if anyone wants to come up to north Spokane , Wa, you can drive my LX and see how it feels.......
Good feedback, thanks!
Do you happen to have MPG logs? I've got a large set for my own 100's, but would love to start compiling others and see if we can find some consistent improvements. IE Premium/Regular, 12/4 hole, tire size, bumpers, etc...
**Edit I should add: The difference felt in situations like yours is possibly the result of old, slightly dirty injectors and new, clean injectors. Could be 12 vs 4, but without back to back testing of a cleaned 4 hole, hard to tell what the main contributor was.
Last edited:
Hello Suprarx7nut,
I don't have any mpg logs but i do check it regularly over the last 11 years and 90K miles. I do have to say that it has not been consistent correlation between regular and premium fuel. Sometimes premium is better sometimes regular is better. I used to get 13-15 mpg depending on in town or hwy. Now i usually get between 14-16. This does go down in the winter because of the "winterized" gas. This is calculated with the 6% larger tires taken into consideration.
I have considered the fact that the age/cleanliness of the injectors could be a factor, but from what i have heard on this forum is that almost everyone doesn't feel any change when they have their 4 holes cleaned.
Thanks again for of your efforts and useful insight on Mud. We all appreciate it.
TLC Dan
I don't have any mpg logs but i do check it regularly over the last 11 years and 90K miles. I do have to say that it has not been consistent correlation between regular and premium fuel. Sometimes premium is better sometimes regular is better. I used to get 13-15 mpg depending on in town or hwy. Now i usually get between 14-16. This does go down in the winter because of the "winterized" gas. This is calculated with the 6% larger tires taken into consideration.
I have considered the fact that the age/cleanliness of the injectors could be a factor, but from what i have heard on this forum is that almost everyone doesn't feel any change when they have their 4 holes cleaned.
Thanks again for of your efforts and useful insight on Mud. We all appreciate it.
TLC Dan
the concept is the same One Large pizza cut in 4 or the same One Large pizza cut in 12
Thank you sir.As an original poster and 12 hole user i will chime in.
My mods are 12 hole injectors, K & N drop in filter and aftermarket muffler. My family has gone to the Oregon coast every year for a week in the summer for the last 10 years, always in the LX. Over the years the boys have grown from 40 and 60 lbs to 150 and 170 lbs now adding several hundred lbs to the rig. If you have ever taken the drive from the I5 to the coast in northern Oregon you are in for a treat. Curvy scenic roads with lots of hills. Since adding my 12 hole injectors my LX has definitely improved noticeably. Pulls the hills better, less downshifting all of this is confirmed by my butt dyno which i have been calibrating for 42 years
I really appreciate all the work, time and expense that went into this Dyno testing and am not surprised by the results. Its the drive-ability where these injectors shine not the net numbers.
And lets face it guys, our hundy's are very fine vehicles but a noticeably improvement in performance is hard to find........
All the best
TLC Dan
BTW, if anyone wants to come up to north Spokane , Wa, you can drive my LX and see how it feels.......
