Front axle rebuild ? Use gear oil ?

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cahilc

cahilc

Joined
Mar 15, 2004
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Dry Fork, WV
Hypothetically ...

If I do a front axle rebuild and pack the planetaries with gear oil ? Why not ?

Just curious,
Cahil
 
Gear oil in the diff, wheel bearing grease in the knuckle, bearings and hubs.
The rebuild is required when the gear oil migrates to the knuckle and bearings washing out the grease and leaking out of the knuckle.
 
I used moly grease (black) for the knuckle, bearings, and hubs. It is suppose to be better than the red wheel bearing grease.
 
Gear oil won't keep the "planetaries" (birfields) lubed properly. I'll drip out everywhere.
 
Just where exactly are the planetaries on a Cruiser? I would run planetary fluid... ;)

Just as everyone has mentioned above... gear lube in the housing, grease in the knuckle... Most knuckles need rebuilding becasue they have lube in them (it sneaks past the inner axle seal)

:D
 
Marine grease is the way too go....its in all my zerk joints and kunckles.....and some water (eh cahil??freakin water crossings) but that grease is much better if you play in or around water....
 
60wag said:
Gear oil won't keep the "planetaries" (birfields) lubed properly. I'll drip out everywhere.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, debateable point.

Grease will activate only under extreme pressure and heat. Birf's get neither, IMHO. I'd rather have my birf's swimming in gear oil.

Everybody is cookbooking this answer and nobody is thinking.

The gear oil hasn't leaked out yet, I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,
Cahil
 
cahilc said:
Hmmm, debateable point.
Click to expand...

Not really...

Grease will activate only under extreme pressure and heat. Birf's get neither, IMHO. I'd rather have my birf's swimming in gear oil.
Click to expand...

The inner cage & balls (entire reason for packing) see VERY high pressure (static and dynamic) and heat. Think about driving a Cruiser in 4WD high for several hours, the birf will definatly see high temps, the wheel bearing's, disc brake assembly and rim will also radiate some measurable amount of heat to the knuckle itself.


Everybody is cookbooking this answer and nobody is thinking.
Click to expand...

Where in the "cookbook" are planetaries???

The gear oil hasn't leaked out yet, I'll keep you posted.
Click to expand...

Sweet, run it in your front wheel bearings and hubs too... Eventually it WILL leak past the felt & rubber seal. Toyota engineers did not design them to stop viscous lube...
 
cruiseroutfit said:
Where in the "cookbook" are planetaries???
Click to expand...

:D

cruiseroutfit said:
Sweet, run it in your front wheel bearings and hubs too... Eventually it WILL leak past the felt & rubber seal. Toyota engineers did not design them to stop viscous lube...
Click to expand...

Finally, we're thinking.

Yup, the seals are the one area which may not hold. I'm going got be checking and topping off each oil change. I'll have a measure of how fast it's leaking by how much I'm topping off.

I did the best with resurfacing(gently) the seal surface too. Had a little bit of rust scaring and sanded ever so gently to get a better seal. Packed them with gear oil and let it stand over night. No leaks. This project is sponsored by my trusted mechanic. I.E. if it needs to be redone in the furture, he'll sponsor it.

One thing I noticed when I pulled the Birf's was they were spinning somewhat dry in a cocoon of solid grease. Weird. I had topped them off previously but none of the grease had reached the birf's.

Cahil

P.S. Freakin' job took 10 hours. I'll be faster next time.
 
oil is actually better for heat than grease, but, as mentioned, the felts weren't designed for oil. many full floater rears run oil all the way out. as for that little plug on the top of the knuckle housing...it's useless for greasing birfs. only way to do that is to pull it all apart.
 
nuclearlemon said:
oil is actually better for heat than grease, but, as mentioned, the felts weren't designed for oil. many full floater rears run oil all the way out. as for that little plug on the top of the knuckle housing...it's useless for greasing birfs. only way to do that is to pull it all apart.
Click to expand...


On the rebuild I spent a while smoothing out the surface the rubber liners(under the felts) were going to rub against. The felts are for ??? To protect the rubber liners ? The rubber liners are actually holding the gear oil in the planetary very well(as expected). I'm not sure for how long but we is gonna find out.

Cheers,
Cahil
 
I have the answer.

Because Toyota says to use Moly-Graphite EP grease in the knuckles!!! That's good enough for me.

You got more experience/education than the Toyota engineers? Proven since 1957?

Take your chances if you like. I'll pass and do what Mr. Toyoda recommends. To each his own though...

Jody.
 
So there isn't oil dripping out the free hub knob? There aren't any seals in there are there? I'm really surprized the rubber wipers on the knuckle ball aren't leaking since its two pieces with a joint in the middle. With the amount of grease theat my knuckles managed to move out of the seals, I'm really surprised you aren't looking at an oily mess. Maybe it'll take a couple hundred miles to loosen up bit.
 
60wag said:
So there isn't oil dripping out the free hub knob? There aren't any seals in there are there? I'm really surprized the rubber wipers on the knuckle ball aren't leaking since its two pieces with a joint in the middle. With the amount of grease theat my knuckles managed to move out of the seals, I'm really surprised you aren't looking at an oily mess. Maybe it'll take a couple hundred miles to loosen up bit.
Click to expand...

In response to Outback's comment: Toyota didn't develop the solid front axle, merely copied it very well and maybe improved it a bit for the LandCruiser. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

There is a seal on the free hub, so far so good.

The rubber wipers are one piece, followed by a spring metal support, followed by the felt wiper. No leaks so far and probably much better lubed. One note I wil have to *religiously* maintain the level in the planetaries.

Reasonably drip free so far.

Cheers,
Cahil
 
Last edited:
SHould work out just fine if not driven or wheeled a bunch. Drive a 15oo mile ride and plan on all new knuckle parts.
 
dd113 said:
SHould work out just fine if not driven or wheeled a bunch. Drive a 15oo mile ride and plan on all new knuckle parts.
Click to expand...

I concur...

Plus, changing a borken birf covered in grease is a big mess.... changing a birf in a knuckle full of lube will be WORSE!

Here's my thinking... Toyota packed (as in from the assembly plant) last for years... Do you honestly think lube is gonna last as long? NOPE... Grease can fill in the small deviations created by dirt and debris in the rubber wiper ring. Lube will flow right through it.

Your not the first person to attempt this... Seems lots of dudes with Haynes manuals thought the same thing... doesn't last long... It will eventually pass the wiper seals, the o-ring at the hub dial and make a mess of the grease around your wheel bearings (unless your planning on lubricating those with the viscous lube).

As Ige mentioned, some are running the FF with just lube, but it has FAR fewer points of entry/exit for water/debris. It has a 2 seals (hub seal & flange seal) vs. 5 seals (hub seal, hub dial, hub body, wiper assembly, splidle seal) And out of all of them, the most vulnerable is going to be the wipers... even a worn inner axle seal will allow enougn lube through to pass the wipers and drip... Hence the need for a knuckle rebuild...

I guess my main question is this...

What do you gain by running lube? Birfs don't wear out when greased, it last for years if packed correctly, and the seals were designed accordingly. By adding lube, you gain a mess during birf replacement, and possibility of seapage...

My 2 cents... :D
 
PS... If you have ever looked at the rubber wiper of an older setup, you will see that the lube will not last long. Ever wheeled (meaning 4-wheeled) Cruiser I have ever seen has quite a bit of dirt/grease/debris build-up at the max angles of the knuckle... and the resulting rubber can be noticably worn... fair to assume that it WILL not hold the fluid...
 
Plan on changing the fluid in the knuckles twice maybe three times a year. Pull it out throught the top plug and refill. Same technique as for a diff without drain plug.

As far as messier ... would be the same mess as replacing a differential gear. Viscious fluid is a lot more manageable than piles of sticky grease. IMHO.

Plus, I was real careful on the wiper reassembly and polished the wiper contact area carefully.

On first fill, we let it sit over night without a single drip.

Cheers,
Cahil
 
cahilc said:
Plan on changing the fluid in the knuckles twice maybe three times a year. Pull it out throught the top plug and refill. Same technique as for a diff without drain plug.
Click to expand...

WAY more maintenance than I ever do on the front end of my Cruisers... and the birfs, trunnions and wheel bearings last years on those. Your time in labor would warrant all new parts every other year... so still why?

As far as messier ... would be the same mess as replacing a differential gear. Viscious fluid is a lot more manageable than piles of sticky grease. IMHO.
Click to expand...

Not IMHO, I have changed dozens of broken birfs on the trail... not once do I wish I was dealing with visous lube...

Plus, I was real careful on the wiper reassembly and polished the wiper contact area carefully.
Click to expand...

Sure, but once some dirt collects on the wipers seal edge (as it will if you use it)... it will deteriorate the rubber wiper... simple fact...

On first fill, we let it sit over night without a single drip.
Click to expand...

Exactly, you let it SIT, use it as my customers and I do (mud, sand, dirt) and it will leak... I could put water in mine after a fresh knuckle rebuild, it wouldn't leak either, should I run it?

Seen it done under real life conditions, it doesn't work... Nothing proven by subjective testing... ;)
 
cahilc said:
...As far as messier ... would be the same mess as replacing a differential gear. Viscious fluid is a lot more manageable than piles of sticky grease. IMHO....
Click to expand...

Let me expand on this one...

I can change a birf in 15 minutes with the help of one other (can you say UROC)... If the birf is replaced immediatly after the break occurs (meaning you don't scatter all the parts into the grease), you can pull out the broken birf, and toss in a new "pre-packed" birf... All without much interaction with the old grease, wipe it off the old birf, stuff it back in the knuckle. Top off with some fresh stuff... DONE! No puddles of gear lube, no need to pull the square plug & fill, no need to watch it all drip out the wipers... :D
 
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