Factory Subwoofer Info Guide (5 Viewers)

[grinchy]

So I just looked a the JBL System in the FSM. It is really different from the Mark Levinson!

Most of the action is on F58 at the receiver and F55 at the amp. You also get two separate fused power pins at the Amp on the power ground/acc connector, so adding a DSP and one amp is pretty manageable, could reuse the factory wiring maybe.

I see that 6v MOST signal for power on and ACC, it's the newer 6v carrier wave type acc.

What is different is that instead of L and R (edit again, looks like L and R may be the MOST signals on F62, see a couple posts down) (F55 is speaker level outputs that are already filtered probably). Awkward. A competent DSP can mix these signals together (for example the Alpine PXE-850S I'm using can do it) to derive the full range, there is a shield ground in the mix, which will be no fun.

The telematics etc is also there as separate signals if you want to mess with it.

 

[kcruiser200]

boyy!!! I am glad that I ain't that much of an audiophile !!! with my luck in electrics, i'd burn the rig to a toast before i'm through!!!

 

[TomCruis]

boyy!!! I am glad that I ain't that much of an audiophile !!! with my luck in electrics, i'd burn the rig to a toast before i'm through!!!

Its a sickness... once you get a taste of a proper sound system however, its quite hard to settle. Problem is cars have become and continue to get a lot more complex with respect to electronics and what previously worked no longer does so without additional complications... and what seems like a reasonable ask can become very expensive

 

[kcruiser200]

Its a sickness... once you get a taste of a proper sound system however, its quite hard to settle. Problem is cars have become and continue to get a lot more complex with respect to electronics and what previously worked no longer does so without additional complications... and what seems like a reasonable ask can become very expensive

i best not look then!! cause i may not be an audiophile.. but I am OCD ..... so if I start I may get into a heck of a lot of trouble just trying to calm my OCD down... not to mention a flatter wallet!!!

 

[grinchy]

I was pleased to find the Alpine DSP on ebay for 40% off Crutchfield's price. That really makes this a much more palatable operation. If paying an installer or buying at retail I agree it's a tough pill to swallow.

If you want time delay across 10 channels there is a high cost bar.

8 channels is $150 (Part Express has a 4x8). But 10, or 12 like the ML is a whole 'nother game.

 

[Ratchey]

I was pleased to find the Alpine DSP on ebay for 40% off Crutchfield's price. That really makes this a much more palatable operation. If paying an installer or buying at retail I agree it's a tough pill to swallow.

If you want time delay across 10 channels there is a high cost bar.

8 channels is $150 (Part Express has a 4x8). But 10, or 12 like the ML is a whole 'nother game.

Where did you find a 12 out? I searched and only found the Audio Control DM-810 which is 10 out. It's a great processor but serious overkill as I am currently only using it for the sub out since my ML amp is still functioning. I was using it in my ES-350 a couple years ago to bypass the stock amp.

Never mind. I just looked at that unit you got. That is pretty sweet.

 

[TomCruis]

Where did you find a 12 out? I searched and only found the Audio Control DM-810 which is 10 out. It's a great processor but serious overkill as I am currently only using it for the sub out since my ML amp is still functioning. I was using it in my ES-350 a couple years ago to bypass the stock amp.

Never mind. I just looked at that unit you got. That is pretty sweet.

How did you like that dm810 when it was in your es? Its on my shortlist of potential solutions, along with the dm 6.1200, JL fix86 and now the alpine @grinchy used. Ive always been a fan of audiocontrol... and their dsp software looks pretty intuitive.

 

[Ratchey]

How did you like that dm810 when it was in your es? Its on my shortlist of potential solutions, along with the dm 6.1200, JL fix86 and now the alpine @grinchy used. Ive always been a fan of audiocontrol... and their dsp software looks pretty intuitive.

I like it. I replaced most of the speakers in there with Boston Pros, Infinity tweeters and an Alpine 10" DVC type R sub and had a 4 channel and a 5 channel Alpine amps. It replaced a premium system, not an ML system. The sound difference was amazing. The ability to bring the bass level up where the stereo starts to reduce the level makes a huge difference and adjust the time delay on each speaker really allows you to tailor the front stage to your exact liking.

 

[shelby95]

I like it. I replaced most of the speakers in there with Boston Pros, Infinity tweeters and an Alpine 10" DVC type R sub and had a 4 channel and a 5 channel Alpine amps. It replaced a premium system, not an ML system. The sound difference was amazing. The ability to bring the bass level up where the stereo starts to reduce the level makes a huge difference and adjust the time delay on each speaker really allows you to tailor the front stage to your exact liking.

Do you experience any of the hissing others have experienced?

 

[grinchy]

I had an alternator hiss is version 2. When I moved on to version 3 I redid my new ground bolt, making sure there was no paint on the body panel and the bolt was shiny clean. That fixed it.

In version 3, I have the 'digital' output hooked up, as my dsp supports unlicensed (CD) digital content. It has a shield ground and it has a very very tiny buzz. If I unplug this line, which I'll be doing next I'm in there, there will be no buzz (verified in dry fit). I thought I'd give it a chance with the vehicle running to dissipate the potential difference; it didn't.

The shield grounds are not at the same potential as the chassis/body grounds and these are problematic because of this. If you see a shield ground in your wiring diagram plan to have to do something to manage it. Maybe replace it with a body ground and orphan it. Or put some resistance on it to drop the voltage difference.

 

[grinchy]

The TLC wiring was bothering me last night. F55 is an "output" connector from the amp, with a bunch of speaker level signals. On my LX, these were all separate from F18, the "input" connector.

So F62 enters the fray.
I don't know what a MOST signal is, exactly, but it sure looks like a low level L and R (edit it isn't, it's a packeted, private protocol). Stick an RCA on these and go to town. Very similar setup to F18 on the LX. What is different is that F62 is the power connector as well, and this is a completely separate connector on the LX.

 

[Ratchey]

Do you experience any of the hissing others have experienced?

I have not experienced it but it is very rare to get noise from a ground loop when working with subs. The frequency is generally above the cutoff level of the sub. One issue I do have since I moved my sub from a box to the stock location is a pop if I start the vehicle when the music is already playing (from ACC to Run) Maybe that was there before and I didn't notice it. Currently my DSP and amp are still mounted to the back of the speaker box until I get some drawers or some other place to mount them. There is no room under the seats for these.

 

[bryson]

MOST is fiber optic if I'm not mistaken...

 

[grinchy]

I have not experienced it but it is very rare to get noise from a ground loop when working with subs. The frequency is generally above the cutoff level of the sub. One issue I do have since I moved my sub from a box to the stock location is a pop if I start the vehicle when the music is already playing (from ACC to Run) Maybe that was there before and I didn't notice it. Currently my DSP and amp are still mounted to the back of the speaker box until I get some drawers or some other place to mount them. There is no room under the seats for these.

ML has a muting signal on F18 to take care of this. Unfortunately muting isn't a feature of most DSPs . . .

 

[grinchy]

MOST is fiber optic if I'm not mistaken...

Hmmmmmmmmm. The Alpine PXE850 has an optic in . . . . but it's a pretty expensive gamble. Also there are two MOST lines, if they've gone to optics no reason to run multiple channels, it won't be bandwidth limited. Internet is being obstinate with me on MOST. I did find an AVC-LAN whitepaper, but this is different.

 

[Ratchey]

The TLC wiring was bothering me last night. F55 is an "output" connector from the amp, with a bunch of speaker level signals. On my LX, these were all separate from F18, the "input" connector.

So F62 enters the fray.
I don't know what a MOST signal is, exactly, but it sure looks like a low level L and R. Stick an RCA on these and go to town. Very similar setup to F18 on the LX. What is different is that F62 is the power connector as well, and this is a completely separate connector on the LX.

View attachment 2283048

MOST (Media Oriented Systems Transport) is a high-speed multimedia network technology optimized by the automotive industry. It can be used for applications inside or outside the car. The serial MOST bus uses a daisy-chain topology or ring topology and synchronous data communication to transport audio, video, voice and data signals via plastic optical fiber (POF) (MOST25, MOST150) or electrical conductor (MOST50, MOST150) physical layers. (source MOST Bus - Wikipedia)

I read it as a Ring network which utilizes a continuous data feed to the devices in the network which feed back to the primary controller. This allows the head unit to know if the amp or any of the speakers are non-functioning, ie open load, as well as control voice from the phone input, HDD, CDs, DVDs, etc.

 

[Ratchey]

MOST is fiber optic if I'm not mistaken...

Depends on the protocol
"...transport audio, video, voice and data signals via plastic optical fiber (POF) (MOST25, MOST150) or electrical conductor (MOST50, MOST150) physical layers."

 

[grinchy]

Finally, a reason to buy an LX over a TLC

http://www.ciando.com/img/books/extract/3645250611_lp.pdf

"If you look into MOST, you'll find it's basically S/PDIF multiplexed onto a packet ring network, with a bit of additional control information and low speed side channels added."

Also if your JBL amp dies options are limited. *Edit - i guess this is also true of the ML - there aren't a bunch of 12 channel solutions running around.

 

[grinchy]

Looks like there are some MOST 'boxes' on ebay for GM vehicles. It's a standard, so maybe they would work to get to the raw audio signals.

 

[sigmundsauer]

Gents, who can advise me on how to release the speaker leads from the terminals without breaking the plastic clip/housing? Nothing I’m trying is working. I would prefer to preserve the factory speaker leads, etc.

thx,
Tim