- Thread starter
- #61
Just heard back from Luke @SubaruBoy
He says there will be no problem at all with that setup.
He says there will be no problem at all with that setup.
GROUP BUY - MMP Ceramic Ball Bearing Turbo (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter diby 2000
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #62
Only 1 day to go have the minimum 10 people so the group buy is going to happen!
I am now hoping to get more people on board to bring the price down even more.
To the people who have expresses interest, I have sent you a PM.
As a reminder, if your interested in buying at the 15-20 price or 20+ price, let me know and if we get the numbers tonight or tomorrow you will get one for that price!
I am now hoping to get more people on board to bring the price down even more.
To the people who have expresses interest, I have sent you a PM.
As a reminder, if your interested in buying at the 15-20 price or 20+ price, let me know and if we get the numbers tonight or tomorrow you will get one for that price!
Been watching this from the sidelines- in simple terms it seems to me like the MMP turbo is about $500 cheaper than a Gturbo Bad Boy, but will probably not last as long. Seeing as this is a brand new turbo for these motors, even if the performance were better than the much sold Gturbo, it's just not that much cheaper for the risk.
I'd be interested if it were say half the cost (or less) of a Gturbo at this stage.
I've rushed in and bought various items for my 4x4 vehicles (no turbo though) over the years based on initial hype and been let down almost every time, sometimes with the vendor closing down. Just glad I never almost bought a Xxi W2A intercooler!
I really hope the MMP turbos are great for those who get them, more choice is better for us all. I just won't be putting one of these on my truck yet.
I'd be interested if it were say half the cost (or less) of a Gturbo at this stage.
I've rushed in and bought various items for my 4x4 vehicles (no turbo though) over the years based on initial hype and been let down almost every time, sometimes with the vendor closing down. Just glad I never almost bought a Xxi W2A intercooler!
I really hope the MMP turbos are great for those who get them, more choice is better for us all. I just won't be putting one of these on my truck yet.
- Thread starter
- #64
Thanks for the comment @slosh. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way.
I'm as excited now as I was when I was here reading about Graemes first turbos and wishing one day I could have one.
Remember as others have said here, Gturbo was also no one once and considered a risky prospect by many.
To prove it one way or another someone is going to have to try it. Right now myself and others have volunteered. If you don't want to join in that's OK. I believe I will be here (on MUD) for a long time to come as I doubt I will ever not have an 80, and I will be able to report nothing but good things about this turbo.
Time will tell.
I'm as excited now as I was when I was here reading about Graemes first turbos and wishing one day I could have one.
Remember as others have said here, Gturbo was also no one once and considered a risky prospect by many.
To prove it one way or another someone is going to have to try it. Right now myself and others have volunteered. If you don't want to join in that's OK. I believe I will be here (on MUD) for a long time to come as I doubt I will ever not have an 80, and I will be able to report nothing but good things about this turbo.
Time will tell.
Good on you for organising this diby... I'll be hanging onto my 80 for a long time too.
- Thread starter
- #66
Thanks mate.
80 for life Haha
I see you are in Australia so I can understand your point. Earlier I posted a price breakdown of what I was quoted with shipping to the USA for a GTurbo and I believe that makes a large difference for me. Without that it would make the decision harder for me. It will cost $280 AUD to ship plus a $300 core that's not worth shipping back and leaves me with my stock turbo as a spare. That makes the Gturbo $800 AUD more expensive on this side of the pond.
@gerg
The issues around the BW EFR range failing are more than just wheels falling off. Please keep in mind BW are not the first manufacture to use Titanium in there turbos. IHI we the first to manufacture a ball bearing turbo and it was originally use by the Honda F1 team in the late 1980's these were the RX6R turbos - We are the only manufacturer that supports these turbos as they are still widely used with vintage WRC teams on the Ford Sierra Cosworth, these guys are still boosting the engines to 2.8 bar through a 34 mm restrictor with a very aggressive anti lag stratigy- IHI also use titanium turbine wheels in there VF range of turbos in the Subaru WRX ranges. Now IHI never had these failures that BW are seeing with there turbine wheels and they were using plastic cages in their steel ball bearings. These same turbos were used by the WRC and ARC teams being pushed to around 2.5 bar with a 34mm restrictor.
So why are BW having these issues? From all the EFR's I have stripped after failures they are using the incorrect ceramic in the bearings and the material density of the Titanium is below 80% (this may be risk they have calculated to reduce the weight of the rotating mass but all IHI titanium wheels have a mass density of 95%). In high heat and inertia situations the wheels are showing fatigue at the welds and on the inducer tips. From what I can gather the laser weld is failing on the edges (this is typically the weakest point of any weld). Now I do not know if the bearings are collapsing first then the negative interaction with the wheels with the housings are the most common failure but I have a few cases where the turbine wheels have exploded at 95,000 rpm shaft speeds.
The issues around the BW EFR range failing are more than just wheels falling off. Please keep in mind BW are not the first manufacture to use Titanium in there turbos. IHI we the first to manufacture a ball bearing turbo and it was originally use by the Honda F1 team in the late 1980's these were the RX6R turbos - We are the only manufacturer that supports these turbos as they are still widely used with vintage WRC teams on the Ford Sierra Cosworth, these guys are still boosting the engines to 2.8 bar through a 34 mm restrictor with a very aggressive anti lag stratigy- IHI also use titanium turbine wheels in there VF range of turbos in the Subaru WRX ranges. Now IHI never had these failures that BW are seeing with there turbine wheels and they were using plastic cages in their steel ball bearings. These same turbos were used by the WRC and ARC teams being pushed to around 2.5 bar with a 34mm restrictor.
So why are BW having these issues? From all the EFR's I have stripped after failures they are using the incorrect ceramic in the bearings and the material density of the Titanium is below 80% (this may be risk they have calculated to reduce the weight of the rotating mass but all IHI titanium wheels have a mass density of 95%). In high heat and inertia situations the wheels are showing fatigue at the welds and on the inducer tips. From what I can gather the laser weld is failing on the edges (this is typically the weakest point of any weld). Now I do not know if the bearings are collapsing first then the negative interaction with the wheels with the housings are the most common failure but I have a few cases where the turbine wheels have exploded at 95,000 rpm shaft speeds.
We also have stocking dealers State Side as well to assist with any installation or technical support.
Wow. Thank you for that insight Luke. That is very valuable information. Extremely hard to find information like that. Seriously. So that is cool that you've dissected several dead BW turbos. The fact that you've done more than one is enough to confirm my ill feelings towards their gamma delta pie in the sky turbines. 95k rpm is cruising on the freeway part load. Hardly much stress. So your suspecting the plastic cage might just be a contributing factor to the turbine failure? Bad ceramic compounds? Perhaps the cage collapses and then the turbine or vice versa? Any way you slice it I'm fine with old school heavy turbines that do take perhaps a full 1/2 second extra to spool compared to one as light as a compressor. Do you think the plastic cage deteriorates from hot shutdown as well or is it just an unsuitable material for the crucible? A turbo center section has to be one of the most awful places in your engine next to your combustion chamber. To be honest the thought of putting a piece of plastic in such a critical area in such a demanding environment does seem like it was perhaps a bad decision. Be interesting to see engine bearings and cylinder walls after they have been subject to ceramic bearing particles too. Very interesting.....
I have to go and pick up the kids from school, later tonight after I finish a few jobs I will write a decent reply mate
Food for thought for the fence sitters in the mmp group buy. Nothing against gturbo only using them as an example . Gturbo started as a guy at home doing his thing for people on here . mmp isn't new to turbos only to mud
- Thread starter
- #73
On that note, today is the final day to get in on this group buy deal.
If you're interested in participating, comment here or send me a PM.
If you're interested in participating, comment here or send me a PM.
- Thread starter
- #74
I'm genuinely surprised there has not been more international interest in this?
Especially at the discounted price.
Especially at the discounted price.
Keep in mind the majority of mud is north Americans users, of which there are few (relatively speaking) 80 drivers.
- Thread starter
- #76
Yeah that's true. There are a few of us foreigners though. Maybe others are not on here as often as some?
I am stoked you guys made your 10 mark to make it happen though. I'm excited to see the results of something new.
Obviously you can't make everyone happy, but I think these are going to be a really great new option.
Obviously you can't make everyone happy, but I think these are going to be a really great new option.
- Thread starter
- #78
Thanks mate. I am excited and can't wait to get it on!
I will be tuning mine myself to begin with so no dyno but I will be sure to try post some video at least.
I will be tuning mine myself to begin with so no dyno but I will be sure to try post some video at least.
Something also interesting, AFIAK the first Gturbos where basically a 16g compressor in a CT26 and considered the tits nipples at the time. Now we have have ceramic ball bearing turbos and VNTs with bespoke wheels. It's only been 6-7 years?
I liked Graeme's posts. He had a unique combination of money to burn, desire to do things no one else has done (stroker/bored out 12H-t in a bloody 80 series), genuine knowledge, (at the time) no financial reason to not share the info and a solid dose of motivation. Most of us talking about these things are only vapor building, he went out and did it.
- Thread starter
- #80
I agree @dare. We all learned heaps from Graeme's posts. There is a good chance we would not be talking about this now without all his information and willingness to share it.
I myself am very grateful for the info he has shared as I'm sure others will also agree.
I don't believe that was the point of @Mcreight911's post.
The way I read it was that Graeme has had such success starting this work at home, unknown to most, where MMP has been in the game for many years now.
@MMPTurbos is new to this forum but not new to building turbos.
Generally speaking if your in business for year after year, it is an indicator that you know what you are doing. (I'm not saying Graeme does not know what he is doing, he has been doing this for a few years now and is also still in business).
I myself am very grateful for the info he has shared as I'm sure others will also agree.
I don't believe that was the point of @Mcreight911's post.
The way I read it was that Graeme has had such success starting this work at home, unknown to most, where MMP has been in the game for many years now.
@MMPTurbos is new to this forum but not new to building turbos.
Generally speaking if your in business for year after year, it is an indicator that you know what you are doing. (I'm not saying Graeme does not know what he is doing, he has been doing this for a few years now and is also still in business).
