rebuild or replace 22re?: specs inside

[bryan89]

ok,
so as some of you may know i have had low oil pressure light problems intermittently with my 22re (88 4runner).
see "engine oil viscosity" thread

so, the next step was to get the oil pan off and inspect the rod bearings and pickup tube gasket. here is what i found.

pickup tube gasket was there, but i dont know if it was functioning properly. it was kind of loose.

Next is thrust clearence. Used magnetic base dial indicator with .0005" divisinos.
Allowable standard Thrust clearence for rod bearings is .006"-.010".
Cylinder 1: .0085"
Cylinder 2: .008"
Cylinder 3: .009"
Cylinder 4: .007"

So pretty good there. would feel okay leaving that for a while.
Next is radial clearence. Disassembled each cap individually, cleaned, dried, and recleaned. assembled and torqued with plastigauge. Here are the results.
Allowable Bearing clearence standard .001"-.0022"
Cylinder 1: .0025"
Cylinder 2: .002"
Cylinder 3: .002"
Cylinder 4: .002"-.003" (varied largely across bearing to scarring)
So they are right at or over the service limit.

Additionally, I found 3-5 pencil eraser sized pieces of the plastic timing chain guides in the oil pan. As well as 15-20 large scraped off pieces of bearing.

AND, the icing on the cake, while rotating my crank to acess different rod bearing caps, i was greeted with the sweet sound of gurgluing and the frequent shower of ...you guessed it antifreeze from the top of the pistons. so, i guess i found the early onset of a head gasket leak as well (no signs in oil yet..stll black)

I am borrowing a video scope from a neighbor this week and will be taking a better peek at the timing chain condition before making my final decision.

But in your opinions would you take the time and money and completely rebuild this motor, or go for a remanufactured motor with a warranty. Quick online estimates for rebuild parts will be about $600. not including machining work and/ labor.

On the other hand, As an example LC engineering has a street remanufactured motor with new everything, 3 year unlimited mile warranty for $1900. all i need is intake, exhaust and wiring.

Post your reccomendations and why.

sorry for the long post.
Thanks

 

[NorCalBorn]

Honestly, first if the rig is clean, and I'm biased here I'd go 3rz on it. That said, come awnnn now, rebuild it and do things right yourself since IIRC this is that same Brian89 from elsewhere online. Unless you know for sure 100% of who you'd be dealing with on the reman, do it yourself if you can. For that matter, punch things out a little and get a bit more power..but then you're back at my first opinion.

 

[toy4xfun]

X2 do it yourself, it is a zen thing it makes you one with your truck! lc engineering is a good company, order parts from them and may be engine builder and Toyota you can mix and match to get the best parts if you build it yourself.

 

[bryan89]

replies to above,
yeah, i am bryan89 from yotatech and a couple nissan forums as well. And yes, the body is in great shape. no rust at all anywhere and just about got the interior all fixed up as well. i dont really want to do 3rz swap because i want to keep this thing stock and original. i am doing a driving restoration of sorts. my hope is that one day these things will be as popular to restore as to wheel, much like the fj40. anyways, if not ill just drive it cause i like it.
so whatever i do, it will be 22re all the way.

as far as getting the Zen one-ness with the truck from building it, i have done that before with my pathfinder. i know i have the capability, but is it really worth my time for a stocker motor. i dont plan to run massive boost or a fat cam or anything. this is strickly daily driver reliable driving truck. what i am saying is , with all the time i put into machining and assembly, plus the cost of parts alone, i think i will be in the ball park of a reman motor for cost, and they have a warranty, which i will not. additionally, if i have something sent out for machining, like the block or the head for example, i may end up with more than one place doing work on this motor. so if something does go wrong, they will all point fingers at each other and i am screwed. with someplace like lc engineering, its a turn key solution. if something is wrong, its all their fault. and i didnt waste all that time.


as for doing it myself with mixed lc engineering parts and yota parts, i am pretty sure lc will build it to whatever i want. i have talked with them briefly in the past and i recall them saying they could put toyota whatever i wanted on there (water pump, timing cover etc).

keep this coming. i need to debate myself lol. 1900 bucks is a lot of dough.

 

[KLF]

A couple of things:

* If you get the head off and can get ahold of a decent bore gauge, I highly recommend you measure the bores. They give you a good indicator of the overall health of the block. Mine is slightly out of allowable tolerances, enough that I'm not comfortable putting it back together as it is. But, for 250K on it, the wear is much less than I expected. My plan is to go up to the next piston/ring size.

* I estimate my rebuild cost is gonna be around $1000-1200. I'm not sure how much the machine shop stuff is gonna be, I've never done this type of thing.

In my case, rebuilding my existing engine is a choice of conscience. There's not much left from my truck from when it left the factory 24 years ago, but I'd really like to keep the original engine. Something about keeping my original 22RE intact just makes it worth the effort. But, truthfully if this engine wasn't salvageable I would be going to a 3RZ.

 

[toy4xfun]

i would do it myself just because i enjoy doing that kind of work.


KLF is that yours or did you rent it, i need one of those, i have 2 blocks with over 300,000 on them.

 

[bryan89]

KLF,
i share the same sentiment with you about the originality of the motor. My transmission was the original one from the truck, so i chose to rebuild it myself. Since my truck is mostly original, i would rebuild the motor thats in there no question....if it were original. However, the motor was changed out by the PO. its the only thing not original on this truck from what i can tell. so i figured if its already not original, then what does it matter if i put something else in there again?

I will look into the bore gauge before i make my final decision. However 1 engine builder and 2 very knowledgeable mechanics that i know said they wouldnt waste their time rebuilding it if it were their personal vehicle. especially with the warranties available.

on a side note i found that ATF (through lc engineering) offers a street performer motor that makes 125+ hp, and has 2 year 24000mile warranty for 2500 bucks with NO CORE and free shipping. thats pretty decent i think. here is a link to its specs.

http://www.toyotacatalog.net/M1WebG...UniqueID=F088B189-BF5E-462F-849E-6BE288C01DAC

who else makes motors for these trucks that is pretty reputable? i know jasper, but one of my friends told me to check out something called jabco or jerko or something???? any ideas??

 

[KLF]

I borrowed the bore gauge from work, part of the extensive tool collection here used in the Small Engine Maintenance & Repair classes we offer. We also have a complete valve grinding setup, not sure if I'll take advantage of it, since I did a valve grind and all new valves ~50K ago. I will probably just lap the valves.

 

[KLF]

so i figured if its already not original, then what does it matter if i put something else in there again?

Totally understand. Just offering a viewpoint, you are justified in your thoughts.

Once I get this truck back together, the only things that will be original is the frame (now modified), the cab & bed bodywork, most of the wiring, a few of the brake lines, the tank, and the engine. I will finally be getting rid of the hideous red interior!

 

[toy4xfun]

KLF,
i share the same sentiment with you about the originality of the motor. My transmission was the original one from the truck, so i chose to rebuild it myself. Since my truck is mostly original, i would rebuild the motor thats in there no question....if it were original. However, the motor was changed out by the PO. its the only thing not original on this truck from what i can tell. so i figured if its already not original, then what does it matter if i put something else in there again?

I will look into the bore gauge before i make my final decision. However 1 engine builder and 2 very knowledgeable mechanics that i know said they wouldnt waste their time rebuilding it if it were their personal vehicle. especially with the warranties available.

on a side note i found that ATF (through lc engineering) offers a street performer motor that makes 125+ hp, and has 2 year 24000mile warranty for 2500 bucks with NO CORE and free shipping. thats pretty decent i think. here is a link to its specs.

http://www.toyotacatalog.net/M1WebG...UniqueID=F088B189-BF5E-462F-849E-6BE288C01DAC

who else makes motors for these trucks that is pretty reputable? i know jasper, but one of my friends told me to check out something called jabco or jerko or something???? any ideas??

stay away from jasper, at least for a 22re, i have heard of a few people having problems with them, and i personally bought a truck that had a jasper with less than 2500 miles on it that a rod broke and went through the cylinder wall.

 

[cavemancaleb]

I have started to believe that every factory built motor comes with this seal, once this seal is broken (anything beyond a timing chain or head gasket), you loose the extreme toyota reliability.

So I have always felt it a better idea to source a factory bottom end with lower miles to replace any motor with rather then doing a rebuild.

That being said, if you do rebuild it, try to source all of your parts from toyota, and if you cant do that, make sure any other parts are produced in japan.

You will find more often then not that autozone or oriley rebuild parts are made in mexico.

I ordered a motor rebuild kit from lowrangeoffroad.com and the company they got the parts from was based in america, but the parts were made in mexcio.

Needless to say, that motor didnt last more then a few months.

 

[bryan89]

caveman,
i agree toyota parts are supreme, but if i sourced a toyota crank, toyota rods, and toyota pistons, my wallet would catch fire. not to mention all of the other work that would have to be done.

with the rebuilt motors, they usually are toyota parts or at least reconditioned ones. and since they have the warranty, it makes me feel better.

you do have to be careful, im finding out, with reman motors. apparently instead of measuring every cylinder, rod bearing and crank bearing coming in to see which, if any, need to be resized, many companies simply turn the crank down to the minimum, bore out the rods to the maximum and put the biggest bearings in there that will fit and bore the cylinders to the maximum oem standard and put in the biggest piston rings. this does a couple things for them:
1. they save time / money
2. they are always building the same motor

on the other hand it doesnt leave the user with much. for example you can never go up to the next size ring or bearing if need be. also, since they remove material, especially from rods, they become weaker and more prone to breaking.

this is why i am interested in ATK at the moment. they CLAIM to only resize where it is necessary, instead of taking everything to the max. this leaves a little wiggle room.

 

[toy4xfun]

look i have been labeled as not knowing what i am talking about, the first engine i rebuilt was a 22re, when i got it apart and was inspecting it it still had faint cross hatch markings, but it had spun bearings oddly enough they were #1 and #3 now i only had a Haynes manual at the time and even in there they gave a tight tolerance for the weight of the rods, the fact that the 22RE has that tight of tolerance meant that it was from the factory a balanced engine something that the American made manufactures did not bother doing at the time. so if i had not dropped the valve from a cheap head i bought i think that engine it would still be running. because i weighed every rod until i found 4 that were in tolerance range. it does make a difference on the life of an engine.

 

[cavemancaleb]

caveman,
i agree toyota parts are supreme, but if i sourced a toyota crank, toyota rods, and toyota pistons, my wallet would catch fire. not to mention all of the other work that would have to be done.

.

Agreed, I was speaking more of the bearings, rings, gaskets ect.

 

[Tools R Us]

In my experience, motor rebuild life is directly tied to the care taken in the process. Most re-manufacturing outfits are all about volume, so little time is taken with issues, fix it quick is the main deal. Often they "batch overhaul" take apart lots of the same type of motors and mix parts in the rebuild. The condition of the core is key and most times they have no way of knowing the history of the core. If mine is a good running motor, but tired, would rebuild, if it has been badly overheated or other big time problems, would opt for another core/rebuilt?

Rebuilding motors isn't rocket science, with the proper care and studying the process to get it right, most can do it with good results.

On the bore gauge, had them, almost never used them, except when boring cylinders. I always just removed the rings, put one in the bore, used the piston to position it and feeler gauge to check gap. Do this several places in the bore to test for taper. As others have mentioned, Toyota cylinders typically have little wear, most times still have cross hatch, often can be honed and use stock size parts.

 

[fjfodee]

As far as gaskets go, NAPA offers Japanese gaskets under their ATM (Altrom) line of part. For a full set of gaskets there will be 2 options:
1) Ultra 8 (chinese)
2) KP (japanese)

A single head gasket under this line does not have any options, but it is a Nippon brand (japanese).

 

[KLF]

My son did a HG job on his 4Runner a few weeks ago, he bought a Toyota gasket set. The full engine set was around $200, and it was really nice. Everything fit perfectly, all high quality stuff. I wouldn't think of going any other way.

 

[toy4xfun]

i have had good luck with the felpro kit to, though it does not come with all of the rubber for the injectors.

 

[Combat Chuck]

I like Felpro, they're good quality, but they seem to have a little weakness on their parts numbers. Back in my Chevy days, I bought Fel-pro gaskets for a TBI unit to mate onto the manifold, but I forgot to take the unit to the shop with me. Took the gasket home, and it was the wrong size for an 89+ TBI, and not the 86 I had in-hand. Took it back, had them cross-reference the part numbers, and according to NAPA, the number on the bag was the correct number for the early TBI. Never figured out what the problem was, and the project ended up going away shortly thereafter (I got the Toyota Bug ).

For the price, I think the complete TEQ gasket set is a great buy, that's about 2/3 the price of sourcing all of them separate, and has the advantage of providing you with spares thay may be needed later on down the line.

 

[Pluton]

caveman,

this is why i am interested in ATK at the moment. they CLAIM to only resize where it is necessary, instead of taking everything to the max. this leaves a little wiggle room.

I had an ATK 22RE long block installed in 2003; It was junk; it didn't blow up, but it leaked, rattled, and was generally pathetic. The timing chain tensioners that ATK supplied with it dissolved(I later learned) within the first few miles of use. I finally replaced it after 60K miles and $2K(retail) in repairs. You have been warned. Good luck with whatever decision you make. -KB-