Why a shackle reversal ?

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Hello
I have been reading the previous post about shackle reversals and have learned a lot about how one should be accomplished.
I cannot however discover the reason for doing one.
Can someone exlain this to me and is it only advantagious for a SOA setup? :confused:
Best Regards
Alan
 
do a search i believe it is even in the FAQ. however you will never get a clear answer. i think it ends up being more of a personal preference.
 
reverse our shackles or not to reverse our shackles ? That is the question.

Well time to put in our 2 cents on this debate. I've read many different opinions on this subject both pro and con. The people on the "pro" side tend to have lifted/modified vehicles, are seriously into off-roading, and see a lot of large rocks when they off road. The people on the "con" side of this issue tend to believe something designed by Toyota could not possibly be improved on, and don't see a lot of rocks/boulders when off roading, and have never driven a vehicle with a shackle reversal either on or off-road.

The modification we are talking about is commonly known as a "Shackle Reversal". Simply put, we are changing the front suspension geometry of a leaf sprung Land Cruiser, by swapping the locations of the spring fixed pin, and shackle so that the fixed pin now resides at the front of the spring, and the shackle is at the rear.

First let's start by saying that like many of you I am a fan of all things Land Cruiser. I believe them to be the best all around off road/utility vehicles ever made. I also however know that compromises are made almost anytime a vehicle is manufactured in order to control production costs, while appealing to the broadest spectrum of potential customers and uses. I recently read a rather lengthy technical argument that basically stated; a shackle reversal is not very effective when used with the flat front OEM springs. I actually agree with this proposition. Let me go one further, unless you are looking to lift your FJ40, you will not realize all of the potential benefits a shackle reversal has to offer. Fortunately for me, the FJ40's I currently own, do not have the stock springs, and suspension on them. Why "fortunately"? Because in stock form the FJ40 suspension has minimal wheel travel, articulation, load carrying capability, and rides like a buckboard from the 1880's. I don't even mind the center arm, as it indeed helps dampen "bump steer", but let's face it, the stock FJ40 suspension was O.K. in 1950, quite sub par by 2004 standards.

One of the first things most Land Cruiser owners do to their FJ40's when they get them, is a suspension lift . Whether to get clearance for larger tires, gain some wheel travel, improve articulation , and improve the ride quality, lifting an FJ40 changes the overall geometry, and that OEM stock shackle set up, with flat stock springs combination goes out the window, and so do the arguments against the shackle reversal. Lifted springs for FJ40's obviously have an arch to them, even when the weight of the vehicle is on them. Consequently the spring is no longer at its' longest length when sitting static. Instead as the spring is compressed, and looses its' arch, it indeed gets longer from eye to eye, which means the axle is moving forward, not to the rear, as would happen with the stock flat spring set up. This increases the load transmitted through the suspension as the wheel moves into the very obstacle it is trying to get away from through suspension compression. Basically instead of the suspension soaking up that bump in the road before it is transmitted through the frame, it ends up transferring the shock into the frame(through that fixed pin at the rear) delivering a jolt instead of a cushion. With a shackle reversal in place this situation is reversed. As the spring compresses/lengthens in reaction to an obstacle, with the fixed pin at the front, the axle and wheel will move to the rear and up, allowing the shock absorber and spring to do what they are designed to, dampen and absorb the impact/movement. As the shackle at the rear is moving freely, it will not transfer rearward motion as a jolt into the frame, as a fixed pin would. This is one of the reasons lifted springs with Shackle Reversals ride better than lifted springs without the S/R. But again in order to make the best use of a S/R, you have to be running lifted springs, and since the better designed S/R units will lift an additional 1-1/2", you'll end up in the 3-1/2" or more range of lift.

Another little bit of physics is easy to test, that being "it is easier to pull a wheel over an obstacle than it is to push it over". Get a wheelbarrel, or one of those kids toys with wheels, that pop the marbels in the plastic dome, basically anything with a wheel(s) attached to a stick or handle that you can either push or pull. Find an obstacle about 1/2 the diameter of the wheel. The handle at the end, is the fixed pin, and you are the frame. First push the device into the obstacle and over. With the wheelbarrel you'll find this easiest if you hit the obstacle hard enough to bounce the wheel over. Now turn around and pull the device over the obstacle. There's the rub, by putting the fulcrum at the front instead of behind it is easier for the wheel to react to the surface changes. No magic, simple physics. This is another reason S/R's improve the ride quality of the vehicles they are used on.

Next is a rather simple testament in favor of using a S/R out here in the West where we have large rocks(I guess trees would work just as well). Take a look at a vehicle with the standard front shackle set up from the side at bumper level(we've provided a picture for you). Kinda looks like a grappling hook doesn't it? And guess what, it works just like one too. Run into something with this, and if you're unlucky you'll bend the top leaf in your spring pack like a pretsel. Yes we've seen it. Now look at the same vehicle with a 4+Plus S/R kit on it, and you'll see a sloped ramp. And that's what we use them for out here, to help us get up onto boulders and other obstacles, without pretseling our leaf springs. But what about the extra stress on the front non boxed frame channels ?? You mean those frame rails we put big bumpers with winches on to pull us out of those "whoops" situations? Well we've never seen a frame damaged because it had a S/R on it, but we've seen plenty of springs pretseled because they didn't.

One last testament to the S/R. When Tracey Jordan and Don Robbins were running Land Cruisers in the ARCA (American Rock Crawler Association) championship series, they both ran modified 4+Plus Shackle Reversal kits, and took 2nd and 8th place in the USA(Traceys' rig took first in the womens division with his fiancee driving), with no failures from the S/R or frame rails.

In closing, if you're looking to keep the stock springs on your rig, a S/R will only serve to improve your approach angle, allow you to pull your wheel from the front instead of pushing it from the rear and will provide you little other benefit. If on the other hand you are looking to lift your leaf sprung Land Cruiser, the S/R is a proven performer both on and off road, and offers some impressive improvements in ride quality, handling, and off road ability. Sorry I know that was more than 2 cents.

Al Colebank
Technical Manager
Man-A-Fre, Inc.
 
Wow, fantastic reply Al, thank-You for the info.
My 1979 fj40 has a 4 inch lift and is configured as a SUA. I purchased it this way and have not yet evaluated it for its performance in accordance to my particular off road requirements, which are tame by most standards. My previous off roading adventures did encounter numerous rocks but being in the desert it was easy enough to just go around them without the need to dominate.
If I was to perform a S/R, my concern would be the movement of the forward driveshaft and its required crearence. seems to me that it would have to be moved forward to accomidate the expected backward movement during an off road rock encounter.
I had a chance to see a rig with the Man-Fre S/R kit installed, it was a class act.
Alan
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I did a maf S/R on my 71 a few years ago, after I did that I was actually able to keep the thing in my lane. Moved to the desert shortly after and haven't had a chance to take it off road.
 
Thank-You for the info Steve, I am not sure that I want to go through the trouble of a S/R and definatly not right now as I have enough challenge with rebuilding my 79 smog system and getting my rig back on the road.
WWhen I am not working on my 40 Iam at work or doing research and planning my build. A big hand to everyone for the great tips
Thanx again
Alan :cheers:
 
Hello
I have been reading the previous post about shackle reversals and have learned a lot about how one should be accomplished.
I cannot however discover the reason for doing one.
Can someone exlain this to me and is it only advantagious for a SOA setup? :confused:
Best Regards
Alan

Shackle reversal is a personal performance modification. I did a SR on my '73 FJ40 but at the same time I did a SOA, and Sag pwr steering. For me I did it because at the time I had a 351W and a lead foot. I believe it steered a bit tighter and had more managable hwy manners. It was smoother offroad.
The theory being the spring and axles 'trails' over an obstacle. With front shackles the spring/shackle tends to push forward over an obstacle, at any speed, yeah, a bit rougher.
Your truck looks really sweet, BTW, and sits nice. You don't look like you need springs and if you're just doing moderate offroad, I'd suggest leave your rig the way it is for now.
I'm ditching the V8 for a 4 cyl 13BT, so I won't go back to stock shackles, but if I hadn't already done a SR, I wouldn't bother now.
This is just another opinion in this unanswerable question.
 
Hello
I have been reading the previous post about shackle reversals
Best Regards
Alan

keep on reading young grasshopper
 
Read this site, talks about how bad it is on a short wheel base vehicle and that is why Toyota, Jeep, Land Rover, Suzuki never did it from the factory. It it was a better way at least one of them would have done it from the factory. Would not have cost anymore money to have done it that way from the factory.
Truth about lifts

There was also one of the off road shows that talked about how leaf springs really work from a true engineering perspective with the videos to show it, and it showed how worse the drive on the road would be with the springs reverse and how it actually can both damage your vehilce and cause control issues. It showed how everything moved for example hitting a big pot hole and how it might have looked better when the tire hit the bottom of the hole, but how bad it was when it then hit the far edge of the pot hole with the spring flattened out and tire already pushed back. It is what all others do not show, there are two impacts to the system when ever you hit something. After seeing that I was convinced it was a fad started by off road racing that was just not correct. Like other said most people who swear by it also replaced a lot of other parts when they did it and are really loving the new parts they put on. I have searched and searched for the video but see to much tech stuff from people selling the kits to do it.
 
Personal preference i would say. I had one on one of my rigs and will never have another one on my rig ever again. It was a DD though. Send a pm if you want to know why. Not dredging it back up on here.
 
Read this site, talks about how bad it is on a short wheel base vehicle and that is why Toyota, Jeep, Land Rover, Suzuki never did it from the factory. It it was a better way at least one of them would have done it from the factory. Would not have cost anymore money to have done it that way from the factory.
Truth about lifts

There was also one of the off road shows that talked about how leaf springs really work from a true engineering perspective with the videos to show it, and it showed how worse the drive on the road would be with the springs reverse and how it actually can both damage your vehilce and cause control issues. It showed how everything moved for example hitting a big pot hole and how it might have looked better when the tire hit the bottom of the hole, but how bad it was when it then hit the far edge of the pot hole with the spring flattened out and tire already pushed back. It is what all others do not show, there are two impacts to the system when ever you hit something. After seeing that I was convinced it was a fad started by off road racing that was just not correct. Like other said most people who swear by it also replaced a lot of other parts when they did it and are really loving the new parts they put on. I have searched and searched for the video but see to much tech stuff from people selling the kits to do it.

That article's got some good points if you drive a Samurai.
Truth is no one has ever actually done a side by side comparison of FJ40's
with the same set up, one S/R one not, in controlled testing, It's always "he said" or "I saw this thing about it".
When it boils down to it it will be personal preference based on experiences
in the environment you wheel in. I'll still shackle reversal every truck I wheel
because of the conditions I wheel in. I'm in no hurry to S/R my BJ70 because it
seldom sees dirt and handles fine. I've never had a vehicle I thought handled
more adversely because of a S/R and yes the handling advantages of a S/R
are not because of the shackle position but rather the caster settings that are built into the kit which can be achieved with shims. It rides differently,
some say better some say they can't tell. Maybe it's all in our heads.
Despite any arguments to the contrary it does improve approach angle. At least the Man-A- Fre kit does. Anyone who parks two cruisers with the same lift
one with, one without will see this right away. The one thing it does allow is the
use of a 2 1/2" lifted spring up front to achieve a 4" lift. Generally speaking
a 2 1/2" lift spring from the same manufacturer does ride softer than the 4"
spring. Granted it only softens half the ride but that's better than nothing.
 
Nice discussion! One observation I had was that most (if not all) the 70s/early 80s Baja style desert race Jeeps and the few Baja FJ40s appear to have shackle reversals on them. I know its a different context vs slow speed rock crawling/offroading, but I don't see how SR would be completely useless and used so extensively in a desert racing context....

Also for the record, I understand that there some military models of the M38 A1 Jeep did come with a shackle reversal at the front. On a side note, apparently some M38 A1s with with a heavy mortar gun on top also had a set of coil spring complementing the rear leaf springs (probably to damped the recoil of the gun when fired).
 
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"Another little bit of physics is easy to test, that being "it is easier to pull a wheel over an obstacle than it is to push it over". Get a wheelbarrel, or one of those kids toys with wheels, that pop the marbels in the plastic dome, basically anything with a wheel(s) attached to a stick or handle that you can either push or pull. Find an obstacle about 1/2 the diameter of the wheel. The handle at the end, is the fixed pin, and you are the frame. First push the device into the obstacle and over. With the wheelbarrel you'll find this easiest if you hit the obstacle hard enough to bounce the wheel over. Now turn around and pull the device over the obstacle. There's the rub, by putting the fulcrum at the front instead of behind it is easier for the wheel to react to the surface changes. No magic, simple physics. This is another reason S/R's improve the ride quality of the vehicles they are used on."

Interesting example. However, when pulling the wheelbarrel, you are also lifting or applying a force in a different direction. If the force used to move the wheel over the obstruction is horizontal to the surface the foot/lbs to "climb" (no vertical lift) is the same for pulling or pushing.
 
At one time I was totaly against SR because the factory didn't design them that way and the factory engineers know best. Then I bought a 1985 Toyota 4x4 Mini Truck that came "factory" in a SOA and a SR (Shackles to the rear). The truck handles great on the freeway and off road.:doh:
I have done several SR and it's a lot of work for something that may be an improvement. If you plan on pushing the front bumper/spring hanger up large boulders a SR may be the ticket. For run of the mill off road driving, it's not a necessity.
 
Thank-you everyone for the wealth of information.
Since I do not Hot Dog it anywhere, especially off road, I think that a S/R will only give me trouble. The article about lifts as they pertain to susuki's was most educating being that a S/R causes severe handling problems on short wheelbased vehicles. I think my 40 would qualify as a short wheelbase. Thank-You for the link.
I must also thank-You for the nice compliment on how my rig looks, I would like to take credit for it but I purchased it that way, it was all done by the PO and I have not yet had the opportunity to road test it, I am not new to 4X4's nor to modified rigs but I have never driven nor ridden in one that is configured as mine is, and I am sure that the learning curve is long.
My best to everyone.
Alan :cheers:
 
That's bogus! I tried shims on my 40 and it improved the handling on the street but when I did the shackle reversal it completely changed the way it rode. It didn't track with the ruts anymore. There are no "severe " handling problems with them. I think some peolpe say s*** just because they don't like something. Politics

Thank-you everyone for the wealth of information.
Since I do not Hot Dog it anywhere, especially off road, I think that a S/R will only give me trouble. The article about lifts as they pertain to susuki's was most educating being that a S/R causes severe handling problems on short wheelbased vehicles. I think my 40 would qualify as a short wheelbase. Thank-You for the link.
I must also thank-You for the nice compliment on how my rig looks, I would like to take credit for it but I purchased it that way, it was all done by the PO and I have not yet had the opportunity to road test it, I am not new to 4X4's nor to modified rigs but I have never driven nor ridden in one that is configured as mine is, and I am sure that the learning curve is long.
My best to everyone.
Alan :cheers:
 
I have a question about SR. While it would seem to ride smoother over bumps on the road it would also seem that when you slam on the brakes it will nose dive more than with the shackles in the front. To nose dive the srings have to compress to do this with the stock setup the axle has to move forward which it going against the direction your moving. With SR the axle has to move back for the srings to compress which it gladly will do. I also wonder how this will handle with a trailer on the back when you brake. A FJ40 with a hard top is top heavy to begin with. The only way to do a SR is with a lift which raise the center of gravity even higher. I see the SR a advantage for a well modified cruiser use off road. Not sure I would want it on a cruiser I was using as a DD and driving in traffic.
 
What about front driveshaft?
As I understand when you do a shackle reversal, you also rotate the spring so the shortest leg sits on the front now. This would increase the free standing length of the driveshaft.
 
The front hanger of the S/R should rake backwards to position the axle in the same place, relative to the t-case.
And in response to the statement that a low profile hanger would be less a rock-finder than a tall one is incorrect. It would just give less lift. The only way to raise a shackle or a spring hanger in relation to
the centerline of the tire is with more spring arch or with a spring over . Shortening the hanger only moves the body and frame down it doesn't pull the spring up.
Reversing the front spring on a 40 moves the hanger back in relation to the tire resulting in better approach at the spring. An FJ40 with a man-a-fre ( 4plus) S/R gains 11~14 degrees approach compared to the same vehicle with the same springs running shackle forward .

As for driveshaft? The 40 came stock with a 2 3/4" slip. The factory never intended more than about 6 1/2" of wheel travel. If you want to run 10" travel
you should probably use longer slips. Both the FJ60 and 80 use longer slips and are compatible with 40 driveshaft tubes. You'll only need to swap a yoke to
match bolt patterns.
 
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