Winter and summer tires or All terrains with 3 peak rating?

[liv2bike]

I run a dedicated winter tire here in Idaho. Hakka R3 SUVs. KO2s on my other wheelset. Laws across the pond are strict and you're doing the right thing. I would run a dedicated winter tire man. The KO2s are legit scary on packed snow and ice. Now if you don't plan on driving in real winter conditions, then maybe you don't need a dedicated winter tire. But if you do or if you plan to explore the Alps in the winter (I would!) then you probably want a winter setup. It really makes a difference. I've been in that part of the world plenty and even in spring, you can get real winter driving conditions.

 

[Heckraiser]

Not sure what the weather is like in your part of Germany, but here in Colorado I run all terrains year round. I've run Hankooks in the past (no mountain snowflake symbol, but other sizes of the same model had it), BFG's with the symbol, and the 80 currently has cheap Pro Comp AT sports (no symbol). All of them seem to do OK in the snow, regardless of the symbol. BFG's might have been a hair worse than the Hankooks and the Pro Comps. The only tire that really let me down was the Cooper Discoverer ATP, which I don't think is sold anymore. Weather here is dry roads 80% of the time with a ski trip usually once or or twice a week in winter (I only go on powder days, so plenty of snow action) and about 3-4 treacherous snow days a year in town.

On my sedans I have run dedicated snow tires, but I find with the natural surefootedness of the LC (any series), AT tires are fine. I am a believer in snow tires in general, but I'm also a cheap ass and can't swallow the cost. Just my $.02

 

[bloc]

I somewhat recently got a set of Toyo Open Country AT3s which have a 3-peak rating. I didn't want to swap back and forth between AT and snows, so I wanted an AT tire that did *decent* in snow. (I know, I know, snow tires are the best. I do snow/ice racing with a caged Subaru outside of the 4x4 world that I run dedicated snows for, so I have a decent understanding of the difference )

Swapping tire sets isn't always practical, and there are times in Colorado that in one single trip I'll be on 60degree dry highways, dry/rocky 4x4 terrain, and a mixture of packed/fresh snow and ice where you need *something* for the snow but would tear up snow tires if you were running a dedicated set. year-round set of ATs fits the bill well for me personally.

I've been very pleased with the Open Country's so far. They are a little more noisy than other AT tires i've run on the hwy, but with the latest dump of snow in CO, i can now say they have some of the best snow performance i've seen in an AT tire. They will definitely 'get you home' if you find yourself on some exotic mtn pass in a blizzard!

LT or P-metric? I got LT AT3s and am looking at a couple ski road trips this winter.. glad to see good feedback.

 

[TeCKis300]

Agreed. That's great input, and IMO what makes a great All Terrain - a tire without any significant capability gaps and generally strong performance everywhere.

I can confirm the Toyo AT3s work incredibly well in the rain too. Heavy rainfall in December and over 1k highway speed trip miles and it cuts through standing water nicely, even at 12.5" width. Then into the southwest deserts, sand, and sharp granite...Baja like terrain, and the tires continue to impress with strong traction and chip resistance. Great flotation on hot fine talcum powder like sand when aired down appropriately.

 

[eatSleepWoof]

Dedicated winter tires are a no brainier for a mostly road driving vehicle.

Falken AT3W for spring, summer, fall. Blizzacks for the winter.

 

[stonepa]

Get ATs they said, you'll be fine...

(skip to 1:10)




Here is a Ford Raptor going sideways after backing out of his driveway, probably the stock KO2s, LOL:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1480283966603157506

Another Ford sliding on ice:

MUST SEE: Camera captures man sliding down ice-covered hill in his truck - https://youtu.be/s-A3_lR-RQE
Most ATs with good siping, even the hard rubber KO2 (snow on snow traction is best) will do fine on snow.

Add in icy conditions, and all ATs will suck, some much more than others.

I have had horrible experience on Ice with KO2s, and somewhat impressive (for an AT) on ice with some old Generals, Falken Wildpeaks, and the Toyo AT3s.

As a recovering ski bum, I used to drive mountain passes 50-60 times per winter, and the old BFG KO was the only tire that gave me no confidence on those ski days.

I am very impressed with the Falkens, and have them on 3 vehicles year round.

I put on the Toyo AT3son my 200 last year and drove through a few snow trips ( 1,200 miles round trip through mountain passes from WA, MT and UT and one early snow this year and while subjective, feel the Falkens do a bit better with winter traction but I thought the Toyos did well (they are suprisingly noisier than the Falkens but not bad).

I run Hakkas on my 200 in winter, so other than some early season and late season ski trips, and my one 1,200 trip, they sit in the garage in winter.

When it comes to icy conditions, ATs can be scary, and all it takes is a patch of black ice to change your life. For me the added safety of true winters is a no brainer.

So I agree that ATs can perform in snow, and I took them on easily 500 trips through snowy passes, I have learned that there is no substitute for a good winter tire. Studded Nokians fit the bill for me.

Edit:
I've said this in other threads, but the 3 peak snowflake symbol is a joke. The "baseline" tire is an outdated all season radial. Any AT will be able to accelerate at 10% better than the baseline (note they test acceleration, not stopping!). I would think any AT with siping would meet the minimum requirements if they were tested as they will hold a lot of snow for snow on snow traction.

The Rubber Manufacturers Association is making a lot of money providing a "certification" (tire manufacturer has to pay to certify every size they want to have the 3 peak symbol) that really provides very little data to consumers.

When a studded Nokian has the same symbol as a KO2, you know it isn't telling you much of anything. The rating should be based on a numerical system of at least 1-5 (1-10 would be better), where 1 is the current 3 peak minimum rating (10% greater than baseline tire), and moving up from there so consumers can see a true apples to apples comparison of each tire. I'd imagine no AT would get above a 3 or 4 on a 10 point scale, but it would give many of us the tools to make informed decisions, especially if we plan to run an AT all year round.

At first I thought this was Seattle last week, then I heard the Russian.

I strongly agree with BFG AT comments. I've been running them, in all their forms, for 35 years. Deadly on any kind of ice. That's why I run Blizzaks all winter.

 

[Cruiser17]

I’ll be in the warmest part of Germany, however the law is that you must have tires with the 3 peak symbol if “winter road conditions (for example: ice, packed snow, mud, black ice, or frost) exist”. It may snow heavy once a year where I’ll be but it still gets around or below freezing all winter and it rains a lot. If I drive to the alps in winter- might as well be the snowy portion of Colorado.

Do your Michelin defender LTX’s have the M+S on the sidewall? M+S is also legal in Germany. This would be an ideal tire for a cruiser on German roads. I lived there for 3 years and my tires were inspected several times. No issues passing the random snow tire inspection police, never had the snowflake.

 

[Sandroad]

Do your Michelin defender LTX’s have the M+S on the sidewall? M+S is also legal in Germany. This would be an ideal tire for a cruiser on German roads. I lived there for 3 years and my tires were inspected several times. No issues passing the random snow tire inspection police, never had the snowflake.

All Michelin Defender LTX M/S have the M+S on the sidewall.

 

[manofthewoods]

I'm also in CO and also have the AT3s on my 200. They do well enough in the white stuff that I run them year round. Have not seen a need for snows with these tires.

Thanks for that confirmation. A 200 (or any LC//LX for that matter) is better than your average "bear" in tough conditions.
Last winter I went through 3 blizzards with my LC on the stock Dunlops. From S Lake Tahoe up and over the pass on Hwy 50, heavy snow down to 2,000ft. Passed everybody like they were in park. Admittedly, riding motorcycles on frozen lakes as a teenager helps to teach about the limits of adhesion...

 

[eatSleepWoof]

Thanks for that confirmation. A 200 (or any LC//LX for that matter) is better than your average "bear" in tough conditions.

The 200 is great, but it can't beat physics. If (or rather: when) something unexpected happens, you still need to stop and/or emergency maneuver over 6000lbs of weight; doing that on low-traction tires in poor conditions is a recipe for disaster. In fact, this is where the 200 does not "shine," and is no better than many lighter vehicles.

I don't buy the best tires I can for perfect condition summer cruising. I buy them for the "oh s***" moments where the quality tire can be the difference between a few puckered ass cheeks, and a serious accident.

 

[El Skywalker]

Thanks for that confirmation. A 200 (or any LC//LX for that matter) is better than your average "bear" in tough conditions.
Last winter I went through 3 blizzards with my LC on the stock Dunlops. From S Lake Tahoe up and over the pass on Hwy 50, heavy snow down to 2,000ft. Passed everybody like they were in park. Admittedly, riding motorcycles on frozen lakes as a teenager helps to teach about the limits of adhesion...

We got a foot of snow last night.
This was my first time driving the 200 in these conditions.

Handled like a champ and I drove it with confidence this morning.

I have the Michelin Defender LTX M/S FWIW.

 

[Chewbacca]

Thanks for that confirmation. A 200 (or any LC//LX for that matter) is better than your average "bear" in tough conditions.
Last winter I went through 3 blizzards with my LC on the stock Dunlops. From S Lake Tahoe up and over the pass on Hwy 50, heavy snow down to 2,000ft. Passed everybody like they were in park. Admittedly, riding motorcycles on frozen lakes as a teenager helps to teach about the limits of adhesion...

The stock Dunlops terrified me in snow. I drove on them for one storm and then went to Discount Tire to put on the AT3s.

 

[Elisantos]

If you're going to be driving in the snow, then the only tire worth running is a Studded Nokian Hakk LT3. It rides better than most any tire I've used, and the studs are virtually silent. Plus, they come in a 275/70/R18, which is a great winter tire size. (good diameter, but still skinny enough that it performs well on snow and ice)

 

[UH60Driver]

Do your Michelin defender LTX’s have the M+S on the sidewall? M+S is also legal in Germany. This would be an ideal tire for a cruiser on German roads. I lived there for 3 years and my tires were inspected several times. No issues passing the random snow tire inspection police, never had the snowflake.

So for tires produced before 2018 M+S is legal and acceptable until 1 Jan 2024. All tires produced after that date (01/19 and newer) must have the three mountain peak snowflake even if they are M+S tires. It’s annoying because my tires were 2 months old when I was told I would be moving there and I would have bought an All terrain with the symbol on them to have one set. I also have a feeling my Michelins would likely fare better in snow and ice than Some all terrains with the symbol.

In a related question- I found a set of 18inch tundra wheels with 275/65/18 Geolander G015s that have the symbol for a decent price nearby. Does anyone know if that particular tire would rub on a stock height 2013?

 

[eatSleepWoof]

In a related question- I found a set of 18inch tundra wheels with 275/65/18 Geolander G015s that have the symbol for a decent price nearby. Does anyone know if that particular tire would rub on a stock height 2013?

That works out to be a 32" tire, which shouldn't have any rubbing issues at all.