Why not more rope on the winches?

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Eric,

I was talking to the Senior Support Engineer at Warn once and he told me that the No.1 mistake that people made when using their winch was that they used an anchor point that was too close.
The more rope you let out the smaller the diameter of the spool. The smaller spool has more pulling power. Think of bicycle gears.
If you add more rope to your winch, you will need to find a anchor point that is further away from your vehicle when you need it.

Regards

Alvaro
 
....Eric gets stuck in his yard, though, so I would measure from the back of your property to the closest anchor point, and plan accordingly with wire rope lengths.:D

ROTFLMAO! Great laugh to start a Friday morning! :flipoff2: IIRC, that was mud, not sand too!
 
my 8274-50 came with 150' of cable....I now run 100' of rope on it...and I HAVE bound it a couple times, even with all that extra space.

If you think you need more, buy extensions and keep them in the recovery bag.

I run 90' of rope on my 10k TMax and haven't ever needed more.
 
play with the stock wire for a while. after you've figured out how it works for you- make changes accordingly.
 
No one has mentioned double line pulls. This calls for a lot more line. I very often will use a snatch block, even if I *could* make the pull without it. It eases the load on the winch AND gets more line off of the drum on those shorter pulls. Also lets you bring the winch hook back to a second rig to double your anchor weight when recovering a mired rig. Very heloful very often.

And if you are doing a complex rig, or really pulling more than the winch is capable of on its own, two snatch blocks can come in handy... and really really eat up the line length.


Mark...
 
one thing that's interesting about the double lining is that I bet most people think it takes twice as long, but that's not true cuz the winch speed increases quite a bit if the load is halved. I bet the pull ends up being only marginally slower (of course respooling will take longer).
 
Good point Mark...knowing your wheeling terrain is a major part of how you setup your winch....for 95% of my stuff, there is something close to winch to, so running shorter lengths allows for more side-pull flexibility...also, with the 40, I'm frequently in a spot where the pull won't allow you to respool halfway up, so having space for sideloading the winch is important.
 
"one thing that's interesting about the double lining is that I bet most people think it takes twice as long, but that's not true cuz the winch speed increases quite a bit if the load is halved. I bet the pull ends up being only marginally slower (of course respooling will take longer)."

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Not really. The relationship between your winch load and your winch speed is not linear. Don't forget to add in the leverage gain due to fewer wraps on the drum. Don't forget tot add in the friction of the snatch block(s). Keep in mind that unless the lines out and back are truely parallel, you are not getting a true 2:1 advantage.

And if you have a PTO winch with 4 speeds available and a throttle to control winch speed, regardless of load, the whole speed/load thing goes out the window. ;)

With any serious winching task, the time needed has nothing to do with how fast the winch pulls. It is all about rigging, tasks done during the pull (shoveling muck from under the rig as it is winched, jamming debris under the tires to get them up and rolling, working the throttle of the rig being winched so as to let it's tirs do some of the work, repositioning gear/rehooking lines, stopping the whole project to re-coordinate or change some detail... lots of stuff like that), and of course cleaning up and restowing afterwards.


We had a winchout a couple of seasons back that took five hours to get a single rig out. We had a poorly maintained PTO fail (which of course meant re-rigging with another rig), had to double line the entire time to two recovery rigs, had to drag the stuck rig a full 50 feet because it kept plowing under the tundra instead of riding up on top, had 6 guys working shovels, had to partially tunnel and crawl under the vehicle and attach the rigging to the rear axle instead of the frame, had two highlifts at a time set up several different times while winching, had to run the cable over an 8 foot long 4x4 with four guys fighting the attached straps to keep it aligned, had to un-invert both rear shackles after the got the rig out and nearly bent both rear springs... I forget what else we had going on. Oh yeah, we had freezing rain coming down for at least 3 of the 5 hours.
When we were done, it took a total of 3-4 minutes to free the other rig which we had cone for in the first place!


When everything is said and done, winch speed is not that imoprtant in the overall scheme of things. I almost never use the speed that I can get from my PTOs.


Mark...
 
Good point Mark...knowing your wheeling terrain is a major part of how you setup your winch....for 95% of my stuff, there is something close to winch to, so running shorter lengths allows for more side-pull flexibility...also, with the 40, I'm frequently in a spot where the pull won't allow you to respool halfway up, so having space for sideloading the winch is important.



Yep, playing in rocks is a lot different than what we do here.

Along with the different winching apporaches, we tend to use snatch straps a LOT more than folks who spend their time in drier environments. Many times you guys can not make use of the short duration violent extraction that as strap provides. Whereas for us, the strap provides exactly what is needed to solve the problem. I've seen the different attitude several times in folks that come up to visit. They'll get stuck and climb out to try and start rigging a winch. As they are discovering that there are few sturdy winch points around except for other rigs, one of us will roll up and toss them the end of a strap (we usually keep a strap riged on at least one end of every rig while we are out, to save time), tell them to hook on, and pop them out.

Heck of a lot quicker and simpler, and everyone is on their way. For us, a winch is the tool of last resort most of the time. The strap is king on our runs. ;)


I get a chuckle of amusement when I go out with some of the other (non-Cruiser) groups up here who do not run as much or as remote as we do. They tend to be a lot more influenced by the magazines. They will turn to the winch as soon as they get stuck too. We're slowly spreading the word just by letting them see how much quicker and simpler a strap recovery is in most of our stuck situations.


Mark...
 
it's true that the spooling in can get ugly, esp. if you pull sideways some, but if it's really piled up you only gain a little bit of extra room with leaving a layer off. That'd be just 3 or 4 few feet of extra spooling maybe? You should just stop and rearrange the rope if it gets too bad anyway I would think. So trade only a bit of trouble every so often for an extra 25'? Maybe worth thinking about when going to synth later on...

Then try it and tell us how well it works..


I have needed the extra room before. I am not going to push it..

Hmmm.....I am at the moment fitting an OEM PTO to an ARB Bullbar and was thinking the same thing "Why isn't there more rope on the winch ?" So I did a search on IH8MUD and found this thread.

It's a good idea to take another cut and make a little room for when the rope winds 'bad'. Where's that 9" Grinder ??

Thanks again IH8MUD !

Also found here when looking at winch options:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/winching-recovery/70281-winch-type-%96-yet-another-winch-question.html
https://forum.ih8mud.com/winching-recovery/69411-pto-hydrolic-winches-vs-electric.html
https://forum.ih8mud.com/winching-recovery/32937-tlc-pto-vs-24v-warn-8274-a.html
IMG_0317 arb mini1.webp
IMG_0320 arb mini2.webp
 
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I have now pretty much concluded that for my uses (some rock stuff) I would stick with the original wire rope on the winch for a while and a synth extension.
When / if my wire rope ever gets damaged (at the rate i'm using this winch, it will be 50 years probably), I will probably just shorten it some (if the fraying location allows, but that's another advantage of the long rope, if you only spool out a bit it will likely get damaged on the end) and rely more on extensions for the long pulls. Best of both worlds IMO, well at least if would be if synth was not that expensive.
With some care and a mobile sleeve, I'm hoping one could use the extension without damaging it.
If my wire rope becomes completely useless, I may buy a short wire rope again, though.
But I must say that the no recoil feature of synth is a major plus IMO. That alone makes it very tempting.
 
The weight and "ignore" facet of synthetic makes it very tempting..
 
Hmmm.....I am at the moment fitting an OEM PTO to an ARB Bullbar and was thinking the same thing "Why isn't there more rope on the winch ?" So I did a search on IH8MUD and found this thread.

It's a good idea to take another cut and make a little room for when the rope winds 'bad'. Where's that 9" Grinder ??

Thanks again IH8MUD !


I trim the back cross support on my OEM PTO winches for more clearance for the spooled cable. I also weld a tab on the cross member right at the edge of the drum to ensure that the cable does not slip over the end and off the drum.


Mark...
 
Hi All:

Greetings Henry!

So, are you modifying a regular ARB 'bar intended for the 60 Series? Or is it one of the "commercial" 'bars ARB produced designed to fit a PTO winch?

Thanks.

Alan

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Hmmm.....I am at the moment fitting an OEM PTO to an ARB Bullbar <snip>
 
...are you modifying a regular ARB 'bar intended for the 60 Series? Or is it one of the "commercial" 'bars ARB produced designed to fit a PTO winch?

Im not sure what the difference is. Here is a pic of the ARB on the parts truck when I bought it /what it looks like now on my 60.
IMG_1794mini.webp
IMG_0322 arb mini 3.webp
 
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...also weld a tab on the cross member right at the edge of the drum to ensure that the cable does not slip over the end and off the drum

Thanks for the good tip !
 
that's odd. Just got my new winch in. First thing I noticed is that there is a whole lot of room left on the spool. This one is already 125' but the last layer (5th I guess) is only half full across and there is easily room for another layer on top.

what's with that?

why not add another layer and another 25' or so? that would be good.


are they that afraid that people will mess up the respooling and they'll clog things up?
More layers causes the winch to work harder. The max power is obtained on the first roll on the spool. I carry a 100 foot extension rope for the rare instance of needing more.

And let your winch, battery and alternator rest and recover its charge during a long pull. Heat is your enemy.
 

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