Who wants upgraded AHC torsion bars?

[krispykritter]

Edit: @cruiserpatch has pre-orders up on his site for the 27mm AHC upgrade bars. Here's a link to his post in another thread: Custom Diameter Torsion Bars (Sway-A-Way) - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/custom-diameter-torsion-bars-sway-a-way.1307056/post-15966820

And here's a direct link to the pre-order: Cruiser Patch 100 Series AHC Land Cruiser & LX470 Torsion Bar set (116 - https://www.cruiserpatch.com/products/cruiser-patch-100-series-ahc-land-cruiser-lx470-torsion-bar-set-1160mm-length-27mm-diameter?_pos=2&_sid=6fb55d013&_ss=r

Hello all -

This post is mostly to try and gauge interest specifically in upgraded AHC torsion bars. Anecdotally, it seems like most people decide to rip out the AHC suspension and go with standard and/or lift-kit suspension on the 100 series. Some folks (like me) really like the AHC and plan to keep it as long as possible. However, I've run into the limits of the OEM AHC torsion bars + extended travel IFS, and had to swap over to the non-AHC torsion bars, which solved my bump-steer issues, but made the front end a lot stiffer than I really want.

I contacted Sway-away a while back and tried to get some pricing on new t-bars, but the numbers were kinda extreme for a one-off set. More recently, @cruiserpatch has put in an order for a batch of 29.5mm bars as an OEM-upgrade for the non-AHC suspension, and has suggested he'd be willing/is going to eventually get to a set of AHC-upgrade bars.

If you're interested, I did the math on what that might look like here
@cruiserpatch 's post is here and includes a link to where you can purchase the non-AHC upgraded bars

So, this post is mostly to help cruiserpatch figure out how much demand there might be for the AHC bars. He's stated that the cost for a pair of bars should be similar to the non-AHC bars, which is currently $530. I was to stress that this is NOT a certain figure just yet.

Also, he mentioned turning the bars to 27mm, which would be 26% stiff than the OEM 25.5mm bar. I also calculated that 32% stiffer would make a 27.33mm bar. Dunno if anyone has a thought on those values, but I'd take either. For reference, the non-AHC OEM bar is 63% stiffer than the AHC bar.

The question is - who wants this AND is willing to shell out 500-600 dollars to get it? I'm hoping if there's enough interest or people will to pay a deposit, that @cruiserpatch would be willing to get this project started sooner rather than later. Also - I'm asking for forgiveness rather than permission from cruiserpatch for this post!

People who have expressed interest:
Me! Take my money!
@trdcorolla
@hoser
@paco01
@jtb517
@ranchero7 - interested

Please let me know in this thread.

 

[cruiserpatch]

Thanks for starting this thread! I do plan to make a run of these eventually but have some other investments under way (for example, non-AHC bars as mentioned).

I'll be curious to see how much interest there really is in both of these products once they're active on our site.

For those interested, here is a link to the stock plus (OEM+) torsion bars I will be stocking soon.

As far as price goes, I highly doubt the AHC version will ever be less expensive than the alternative since so many folks seem to delete AHC (worst mistake I ever made on my '99 LX470). For intense rock crawling like I do, AHC would have been perfect for low spring rate, lots of flex- oh well. Live and learn. Perhaps on the next build

 

[MongooseGA]

How would these compare to swapping in a set of Toyota bars to an AHC truck?

 

[krispykritter]

How would these compare to swapping in a set of Toyota bars to an AHC truck?

That is very difficult to quantify, unfortunately.

In my experience, the non-AHC bars are quite stiff when added to an AHC equipped truck, BUT I only have moderate extra weigh in my truck - Trail Tailor winch plate with a 12k winch, aluminum skids, rock sliders. I think my truck weighs around 63-6500 lbs unloaded. I can say that the rear (with OME medium lift springs + AHC) is noticeably softer than the front end at the moment - and those rear springs are 220 lbs/in. I have a homemade drawer set (3/4 ply) with a 35 liter fridge in the back permanently, plus probably 100ish pounds of tools and chains and etc.

I want the AHC+ bars because the OEM toyota bars are just too stiff. They did solve my excessive nose lift issue but don't flex nearly as much as I'd like and feel quite harsh over expansion joints on the highway or speedbumps in the parking lots.

If you like your hard numbers - the non-AHC bar is 63% stiffer than the AHC bar. We're discussing a bar that is around 30% stiffer - so halfway between AHC and non-AHC stiffnesses.

 

[MongooseGA]

That is very difficult to quantify, unfortunately.

In my experience, the non-AHC bars are quite stiff when added to an AHC equipped truck, BUT I only have moderate extra weigh in my truck - Trail Tailor winch plate with a 12k winch, aluminum skids, rock sliders. I think my truck weighs around 63-6500 lbs unloaded. I can say that the rear (with OME medium lift springs + AHC) is noticeably softer than the front end at the moment - and those rear springs are 220 lbs/in. I have a homemade drawer set (3/4 ply) with a 35 liter fridge in the back permanently, plus probably 100ish pounds of tools and chains and etc.

I want the AHC+ bars because the OEM toyota bars are just too stiff. They did solve my excessive nose lift issue but don't flex nearly as much as I'd like and feel quite harsh over expansion joints on the highway or speedbumps in the parking lots.

If you like your hard numbers - the non-AHC bar is 63% stiffer than the AHC bar. We're discussing a bar that is around 30% stiffer - so halfway between AHC and non-AHC stiffnesses.

Got it. Those percentages help put things in to perspective, thanks!

 

[GTV]

How do you know if you actually need uprated torsion bars?

I don't know the exact weight of my rig but I try to keep it as light as possible. The only real weight that's been added to the front axle is from aluminium skids and steel sliders. I've reindexed my OEM AHC torsion bars and the pressures are in spec but I definitely get some porpoise-ing if the conditions are right, that makes me think that the torsion bars are unable to control the weight dynamically. It doesn't happen very often though so it's not concerning. Eventually I will add a winch and plate (easily 100+ lbs ahead of the front axle) and I assume it will get noticeably worse. I've considered OEM non AHC bars but 63% stiffer seems like an awful lot for only adding +/- a couple hundred pounds to that axle. Something in the middle sounds great but the maths on the aftermarket bars only works if they are identical in construction to the OEM bars, other than diameter of course. I'd have to see some spring rate data before pulling the trigger.

 

[krispykritter]

How do you know if you actually need uprated torsion bars?

I don't know the exact weight of my rig but I try to keep it as light as possible. The only real weight that's been added to the front axle is from aluminium skids and steel sliders. I've reindexed my OEM AHC torsion bars and the pressures are in spec but I definitely get some porpoise-ing if the conditions are right, that makes me think that the torsion bars are unable to control the weight dynamically. It doesn't happen very often though so it's not concerning. Eventually I will add a winch and plate (easily 100+ lbs ahead of the front axle) and I assume it will get noticeably worse. I've considered OEM non AHC bars but 63% stiffer seems like an awful lot for only adding +/- a couple hundred pounds to that axle. Something in the middle sounds great but the maths on the aftermarket bars only works if they are identical in construction to the OEM bars, other than diameter of course. I'd have to see some spring rate data before pulling the trigger.

I AM NOT AN EXPERT - but I did run my numbers by Brian at Sway-away (a while back) and his calculations matched mine.

Generally speaking, there are very narrow values for steel spring rates. It's also relatively straightforward to at least calculate the relative stiffness of various torsion bars and they are basically 100% related to the diameter of the bar. I described this process in the other thread I linked in the initial post above. I have never been able to find anywhere that you can get a lbs/in number like you'd get for coil springs. T-bars work on the end of a large lever arm and generally have MUCH higher motion ratios than things like coil-over struts.

As for whether you need it or not...where I found the issue was that, when I floored my truck (rare, but on occasion needed when pulling out into traffic or something), I'd either top out my shocks (before I extended them), or end up with a badly toed-in condition (after extending them), as the stock AHC bars were so preloaded that they unloaded too slowly as the nose lifted. It's a little hard to describe tbh...here's what that looks like: Youtube link

The non-AHC bars unload way quicker - as in, they take way less preload so there's far less twist in the bar just sitting at my ride height - but they're also too stiff with the spring rate provided by the AHC. For me, the 30% stiffer number is just a guess based on how the truck felt with cranked AHC bars and with non-AHC bars.

Best we can do here since this is literally something no one has tried before.

 

[trdcorolla]

Hello all -

This post is mostly to try and gauge interest specifically in upgraded AHC torsion bars. Anecdotally, it seems like most people decide to rip out the AHC suspension and go with standard and/or lift-kit suspension on the 100 series. Some folks (like me) really like the AHC and plan to keep it as long as possible. However, I've run into the limits of the OEM AHC torsion bars + extended travel IFS, and had to swap over to the non-AHC torsion bars, which solved my bump-steer issues, but made the front end a lot stiffer than I really want.

I contacted Sway-away a while back and tried to get some pricing on new t-bars, but the numbers were kinda extreme for a one-off set. More recently, @cruiserpatch has put in an order for a batch of 29.5mm bars as an OEM-upgrade for the non-AHC suspension, and has suggested he'd be willing/is going to eventually get to a set of AHC-upgrade bars.

If you're interested, I did the math on what that might look like here
@cruiserpatch 's post is here and includes a link to where you can purchase the non-AHC upgraded bars

So, this post is mostly to help cruiserpatch figure out how much demand there might be for the AHC bars. He's stated that the cost for a pair of bars should be similar to the non-AHC bars, which is currently $530. I was to stress that this is NOT a certain figure just yet.

Also, he mentioned turning the bars to 27mm, which would be 26% stiff than the OEM 25.5mm bar. I also calculated that 32% stiffer would make a 27.33mm bar. Dunno if anyone has a thought on those values, but I'd take either. For reference, the non-AHC OEM bar is 63% stiffer than the AHC bar.

The question is - who wants this AND is willing to shell out 500-600 dollars to get it? I'm hoping if there's enough interest or people will to pay a deposit, that @cruiserpatch would be willing to get this project started sooner rather than later. Also - I'm asking for forgiveness rather than permission from cruiserpatch for this post!

People who have expressed interest:
Me! Take my money!
@trdcorolla ?
@hoser

Please let me know in this thread.

I'm in at the 5-600 price point for a 27mm set.

 

[gregdawg89]

Hello all -

This post is mostly to try and gauge interest specifically in upgraded AHC torsion bars. Anecdotally, it seems like most people decide to rip out the AHC suspension and go with standard and/or lift-kit suspension on the 100 series. Some folks (like me) really like the AHC and plan to keep it as long as possible. However, I've run into the limits of the OEM AHC torsion bars + extended travel IFS, and had to swap over to the non-AHC torsion bars, which solved my bump-steer issues, but made the front end a lot stiffer than I really want.

I contacted Sway-away a while back and tried to get some pricing on new t-bars, but the numbers were kinda extreme for a one-off set. More recently, @cruiserpatch has put in an order for a batch of 29.5mm bars as an OEM-upgrade for the non-AHC suspension, and has suggested he'd be willing/is going to eventually get to a set of AHC-upgrade bars.

If you're interested, I did the math on what that might look like here
@cruiserpatch 's post is here and includes a link to where you can purchase the non-AHC upgraded bars

So, this post is mostly to help cruiserpatch figure out how much demand there might be for the AHC bars. He's stated that the cost for a pair of bars should be similar to the non-AHC bars, which is currently $530. I was to stress that this is NOT a certain figure just yet.

Also, he mentioned turning the bars to 27mm, which would be 26% stiff than the OEM 25.5mm bar. I also calculated that 32% stiffer would make a 27.33mm bar. Dunno if anyone has a thought on those values, but I'd take either. For reference, the non-AHC OEM bar is 63% stiffer than the AHC bar.

The question is - who wants this AND is willing to shell out 500-600 dollars to get it? I'm hoping if there's enough interest or people will to pay a deposit, that @cruiserpatch would be willing to get this project started sooner rather than later. Also - I'm asking for forgiveness rather than permission from cruiserpatch for this post!

People who have expressed interest:
Me! Take my money!
@trdcorolla
@hoser ?

Please let me know in this thread.

Hi, just so I'm clear, if I have AHC, these new torsion bars would stiffen up the swaying?

 

[krispykritter]

Hi, just so I'm clear, if I have AHC, these new torsion bars would stiffen up the swaying?

That is the general idea, however, I believe the Diesel bars are a bit longer. Not sure if the AHC equipped diesel 100s have stiffer t-bars, but I have heard that the non-AHC equipped diesels have stiffer OEM bars than the gassers.


I have my own question, though, particularly to @cruiserpatch or anyone with first hand knowledge...What are the stock, measured diameters of the AHC and non-AHC t-bars? I've seen 25.5mm, 26mm, and 26.2mm for AHC, and 28 to 29mm for non-AHC. Guess I need to grab my calipers and measure my bars to see what reading I get...

 

[gregdawg89]

That is the general idea, however, I believe the Diesel bars are a bit longer. Not sure if the AHC equipped diesel 100s have stiffer t-bars, but I have heard that the non-AHC equipped diesels have stiffer OEM bars than the gassers.


I have my own question, though, particularly to @cruiserpatch or anyone with first hand knowledge...What are the stock, measured diameters of the AHC and non-AHC t-bars? I've seen 25.5mm, 26mm, and 26.2mm for AHC, and 28 to 29mm for non-AHC. Guess I need to grab my calipers and measure my bars to see what reading I get...

Good point; my JDM imported diesel rig may be different than domestic LC100/LX470 torsion bars..

 

[cruiserpatch]

Stock AHC bars measured around 25mm (99 LX470)

Stock OEM Petrol LC bars measured around approximately 29mm (1998 LC)

Petrol bars are 1160mm in length if I’m not mistaken. Diesel bars are slightly longer at 1194mm

OME/ARB sells a 30.5mm bar (1160mm length)
Ironman sells 32mm bars
Dobinsons sells 32mm bars
Sway-A-Way (now X-Sway) sells 32mm bars (petrol and diesel)

If there are other options out there I’d be interested to see how they all stack up

 

[NearJetties]

Thanks for starting this thread! I do plan to make a run of these eventually but have some other investments under way (for example, non-AHC bars as mentioned).

I'll be curious to see how much interest there really is in both of these products once they're active on our site.

For those interested, here is a link to the stock plus (OEM+) torsion bars I will be stocking soon.

As far as price goes, I highly doubt the AHC version will ever be less expensive than the alternative since so many folks seem to delete AHC (worst mistake I ever made on my '99 LX470). For intense rock crawling like I do, AHC would have been perfect for low spring rate, lots of flex- oh well. Live and learn. Perhaps on the next build

What makes therm “stock plus”? The description reads as they are stock specs.

 

[cruiserpatch]

What makes therm “stock plus”? The description reads as they are stock specs.

The bars I’ll be selling are 29.5mm thick in diameter so technically they have a slightly higher spring rate than stock (thus, OEM+)

My thinking is that most guys will want a little wiggle room and would prefer not to reindex by 2-3 splines. This should get it around 1-2 splines for heavy builds and normal index for stock trucks

 

[TLEXAS]

The bars I’ll be selling are 29.5mm thick in diameter so technically they have a slightly higher spring rate than stock (thus, OEM+)

My thinking is that most guys will want a little wiggle room and would prefer not to reindex by 2-3 splines. This should get it around 1-2 splines for heavy builds and normal index for stock trucks

Any chance of having available the 27mm x 1210 torsion bar being a tweaked version of the current 25.5mm original AHC diesel version currently fitted to my rig with 620,000 km? Toyota no longer make the original AHC version torsion bar so must be a number of potential100 series owners into the future keen to replace their torsion bars for AHC equipped rigs. all the aftermarket guys are concentrating their efforts on the heavy rigs without AHC. Their gear is 30mm - 32mm which is far too stiff for a rig retaining their AHC system and not keen on lifting their rig.

 

[cruiserpatch]

Any chance of having available the 27mm x 1210 torsion bar being a tweaked version of the current 25.5mm original AHC diesel version currently fitted to my rig with 620,000 km? Toyota no longer make the original AHC version torsion bar so must be a number of potential100 series owners into the future keen to replace their torsion bars for AHC equipped rigs. all the aftermarket guys are concentrating their efforts on the heavy rigs without AHC. Their gear is 30mm - 32mm which is far too stiff for a rig retaining their AHC system and not keen on lifting their rig.

I’ll be honest- the diesel 100 market here in the states is so small that I may never be able to offer those at a reasonable price. Would be closer to $1,000 per set unless I could order 100 sets or more at a time (don’t feel like coughing up $30,000 for that).

I’d say for now just stay tuned and I may have something to show later…

 

[TreatSmash]

Just to put in my $.02 in, I have upgraded my AHC 2006 LC to non-AHC T-bars and springs.

I live out of my truck for long periods of times and my curb weight often rubs up against 7k lbs.

When I am loaded up at full weight the ride is great, my AHC pressure specs are within margin and I had no issues at Moab (very moderate stuff) and the San Juan's.

That said I am currently refitting my interior and have reduced my weight to about 6k lbs or so and the rigidity is noticeable. The ride is much stiffer and the potholes are more noticeable.

 

[paco01]

Hello all -

This post is mostly to try and gauge interest specifically in upgraded AHC torsion bars. Anecdotally, it seems like most people decide to rip out the AHC suspension and go with standard and/or lift-kit suspension on the 100 series. Some folks (like me) really like the AHC and plan to keep it as long as possible. However, I've run into the limits of the OEM AHC torsion bars + extended travel IFS, and had to swap over to the non-AHC torsion bars, which solved my bump-steer issues, but made the front end a lot stiffer than I really want.

I contacted Sway-away a while back and tried to get some pricing on new t-bars, but the numbers were kinda extreme for a one-off set. More recently, @cruiserpatch has put in an order for a batch of 29.5mm bars as an OEM-upgrade for the non-AHC suspension, and has suggested he'd be willing/is going to eventually get to a set of AHC-upgrade bars.

If you're interested, I did the math on what that might look like here
@cruiserpatch 's post is here and includes a link to where you can purchase the non-AHC upgraded bars

So, this post is mostly to help cruiserpatch figure out how much demand there might be for the AHC bars. He's stated that the cost for a pair of bars should be similar to the non-AHC bars, which is currently $530. I was to stress that this is NOT a certain figure just yet.

Also, he mentioned turning the bars to 27mm, which would be 26% stiff than the OEM 25.5mm bar. I also calculated that 32% stiffer would make a 27.33mm bar. Dunno if anyone has a thought on those values, but I'd take either. For reference, the non-AHC OEM bar is 63% stiffer than the AHC bar.

The question is - who wants this AND is willing to shell out 500-600 dollars to get it? I'm hoping if there's enough interest or people will to pay a deposit, that @cruiserpatch would be willing to get this project started sooner rather than later. Also - I'm asking for forgiveness rather than permission from cruiserpatch for this post!

People who have expressed interest:
Me! Take my money!
@trdcorolla
@hoser ?

Please let me know in this thread.

I'd be down for a set.

 

[jtb517]

I’m getting to the point weight wise where I will likely need a set of these. You can put me on the list.

 

[harshjay]

I’m getting to the point weight wise where I will likely need a set of these. You can put me on the list.

just use non ahc bars, sway-away makes a nice usa based set, vs Chinese derived OME / Ironman.