Wheel bearing question

[kingdom77]

These bearings are toyota OEM and lasts a long long time. Any aftermarket (even Koyo, Nachi, NTN, SKF etc.) bearing you buy will fail way before the factory toyota wheel bearing.

I use the specs shown in this video:

READ: IMPORTANT : At 4:53 THE TORQUE is 21 ft-lb (not 4 ft-lb as they say) : IMPORTANT

That’s my thinking as well

 

[Malleus]

These bearings are toyota OEM and lasts a long long time. Any aftermarket (even Koyo, Nachi, NTN, SKF etc.) bearing you buy will fail way before the factory toyota wheel bearing.

I use the specs shown in this video:

READ: IMPORTANT : At 4:53 THE TORQUE is 21 ft-lb (not 4 ft-lb as they say) : IMPORTANT

Toyota doesn't make bearings. They buy them. Koyo and SKF are two of the largest OEM bearing suppliers in the world.

FWIW, I am a former SAE engineer. My opinions are, of course, mine, and you are entitled to yours. Or the ones you get from anonymous youtube videos.

 

[Malleus]

To clarify my last post, my opinions are just that, opinions, not facts. No one really knows when a bearing should be replaced, unless it's tested (or catastrophically fails). That's why OEMs supply replacement specifications; they can't test your bearings and don't want you to be unhappy with their products should they fail.

Further, my opinions have been developed over many years of industry experience (I used to be an application/design/manufacturing engineer for Dana), including many conversations with bearing application/design/manufacturing engineers and site visits to the bearing manufacturing plants.

To be clear, the only way to positively determine whether a bearing (like a tapered roller bearing, the type used for automotive wheel bearings) should be replaced is to assess them the way the manufacturers do in their quality labs:

mount the cone on a test shaft,
mount the cup in a test housing,
assemble the two and
spin them under an axial design load
while measuring the runout on either the shaft, hub, or both.

This indirectly indicates the amount of clearance, under design load, between the load bearing surfaces. You then compare these data with the design load clearances. If the clearances (as indicated by the runout measurements) are at or below the design load clearances, the bearing is good. If the clearances exceed the design load clearances, the bearing should be replaced. As a practical matter, these clearances can be exceed by a fair amount and the bearing will still perform its intended function. namely protecting the major components it (they) supports.

You'll never see this in a youtube video, because, despite the fact that this is the de facto industry standard for testing, it is considered to be proprietary by all manufacturers. Furher, you cannot "test" a bearing in your hand and determine anything other than the fact that it is a bearing.

Obviously, this is impractical, to say the least, for even professional mechanics, not to mention impossible for home mechanics. That's why the OEMs publish recommended replacement intervals.

 

[kingdom77]

To clarify my last post, my opinions are just that, opinions, not facts. No one really knows when a bearing should be replaced, unless it's tested (or catastrophically fails). That's why OEMs supply replacement specifications; they can't test your bearings and don't want you to be unhappy with their products should they fail.

Further, my opinions have been developed over many years of industry experience (I used to be an application/design/manufacturing engineer for Dana), including many conversations with bearing application/design/manufacturing engineers and site visits to the bearing manufacturing plants.

To be clear, the only way to positively determine whether a bearing (like a tapered roller bearing, the type used for automotive wheel bearings) should be replaced is to assess them the way the manufacturers do in their quality labs:

mount the cone on a test shaft,
mount the cup in a test housing,
assemble the two and
spin them under an axial design load
while measuring the runout on either the shaft, hub, or both.

This indirectly indicates the amount of clearance, under design load, between the load bearing surfaces. You then compare these data with the design load clearances. If the clearances (as indicated by the runout measurements) are at or below the design load clearances, the bearing is good. If the clearances exceed the design load clearances, the bearing should be replaced. As a practical matter, these clearances can be exceed by a fair amount and the bearing will still perform its intended function. namely protecting the major components it (they) supports.

You'll never see this in a youtube video, because, despite the fact that this is the de facto industry standard for testing, it is considered to be proprietary by all manufacturers. Furher, you cannot "test" a bearing in your hand and determine anything other than the fact that it is a bearing.

Obviously, this is impractical, to say the least, for even professional mechanics, not to mention impossible for home mechanics. That's why the OEMs publish recommended replacement intervals.

Wow, that’s a next level tech answer. Sounds like me slamming in some grease in a dirty garage and guessing on torque specs is for a different group. I cleaned a lot of skateboard bearings in my life so I feel like I have a pretty technical background as well. That is interesting on the study that goes into checking a bearing though. Much respect

 

[Malleus]

At the risk of beating an already dead horse, I do agree that repacking wheel bearings is advisable if:
1) the axles have been subjected to a water crossing - in this case, the hubs should be disassembled and the parts cleaned and lubricated with fresh, clean lubricant. This wasn't in my previous post, due to the context of repair maintenance.
2) you're even more OCD than me and feel the need to disassemble, clean and relubricate your hubs every third oil change. If you're this guy, good for you. Your bearings should last the lifetime of the truck. So say the axle bearing application engineers I've talked to over the years. I've torn down decades old industrial and agricultural drive-steer axles that were regularly serviced and they looked as good as the day they left the assembly line.

For the record, even though I do clean, polish and recut the threads on every fastener I remove (roadwheel nuts excluded), and replace every spring clamp whenever I remove one, and change my brake and power steering fluid every year, I do not regulary
1) change engine oil (my trucks are self purging; I only add oil)
2) change gear oil, unless I open a case
3) change transmission fluid (number 2 son's 2000 LX470 is getting a fluid change soon, but that's more for his education than anything else)

you have to draw the line somewhere; there are only so many hours in a day.

 

[Malleus]

Wow, that’s a next level tech answer. Sounds like me slamming in some grease in a dirty garage and guessing on torque specs is for a different group. I cleaned a lot of skateboard bearings in my life so I feel like I have a pretty technical background as well. That is interesting on the study that goes into checking a bearing though. Much respect

I'd say you're more than qualified to work on your own truck.

 

[kingdom77]

I'd say you're more than qualified to work on your own truck.

Did my timing belt, cam/ crank seals, starter etc on my lx. I always had old cars so working on Japan cars is a new experience.

 

[Malleus]

The thing I really like to most about Land Cruisers is how simple they are to work on, and how infrequently I have to do it.

My rant was along the lines of @nukegoat's commentaries: substituting voodoo logic for actual thinking is never a good idea.

 

[kingdom77]

The thing I really like to most about Land Cruisers is how simple they are to work on, and how infrequently I have to do it.

My rant was along the lines of @nukegoat's commentaries: substituting voodoo logic for actual thinking is never a good idea.

Agreed, I’m actually pretty OCD in life as well. I just try and over service vs buy and replace and most of the time I question how much time in my life I waste fixing something that’s not broken. I also stress on buying only Toyota parts so most of the time I just rebuild if possible and have spares on hand incase of failure. If I managed the rest of my life like my cars I would probably be pretty successful. I just like snowboarding and golfing to much

 

[birch hill]

The pre load should only be 3-5 lbs. the break away force only applies to setting up new bearings and races. You will never get the recommended breakaway on old repacked bearings without over torquing them. It should only be tight enough to eliminate any axiel play ie With wheel on you can’t get any play at 12 and 6 o’clock while rocking it. No more. Read this. It will teach you the best practice for this type of bearing. https://www.timken.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/5556_Bearing-Setting-Brochure-1.pdf

 

[JunkCrzr89]

The pre load should only be 3-5 lbs. the break away force only applies to setting up new bearings and races. You will never get the recommended breakaway on old repacked bearings without over torquing them. It should only be tight enough to eliminate any axiel play ie With wheel on you can’t get any play at 12 and 6 o’clock while rocking it. No more. Read this. It will teach you the best practice for this type of bearing. https://www.timken.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/5556_Bearing-Setting-Brochure-1.pdf

That is not what the Toyota FSM says.

 

[kingdom77]

The pre load should only be 3-5 lbs. the break away force only applies to setting up new bearings and races. You will never get the recommended breakaway on old repacked bearings without over torquing them. It should only be tight enough to eliminate any axiel play ie With wheel on you can’t get any play at 12 and 6 o’clock while rocking it. No more. Read this. It will teach you the best practice for this type of bearing. https://www.timken.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/5556_Bearing-Setting-Brochure-1.pdf

I just convinced myself that I was going to stop thinking about this.

 

[birch hill]

That is not what the Toyota FSM says.

It does say the bearings are a non reusable part. Why do you think the only bearing failures on 100 series are from over tightening bearings. Plenty of loose floppy bearings running around with out one failure. Loose is ok, too tight will heat up and fail. Read the link about our style of bearings

 

[TheForger]

Why do you think the only bearing failures on 100 series are from over tightening bearings. Plenty of loose floppy bearings running around with out one failure.

December 2, 2014 I had a bearing catastrophically fail and a c-clip pop off in my drivers front hub while pulling into my doctors office. Upper & lower ball joints, CV axle, flange, tie rod, hub, caliper, rotor, etc... were toast. Towed to the dealer and ~$2700 later I was back on the road.

Loose is ok, too tight will heat up and fail.

This statement is false. DO NOT be under the assumption that loose wheel bearings are acceptable.

Almost the exact same thing happened here:

(10/21 UPDATE Fixed) Wheel Bearing Failed (albeit there were a combination of things to fail, but loose bearings were a major contributing factor)

And another documented case here:

Wheel Bearing Failure

 

[birch hill]

Anecdotal assumptions on why something fails is not helpful. Too many people reuse the c clips. Hence the high failure rate of them popping off. Floppy loose is bad, but too tight is worse. Follow the manufacture of the bearings specs. Or follow Toyota’s methods, but that requires using new bearings every 30k.

 

[TheForger]

Anecdotal assumptions on why something fails is not helpful. Too many people reuse the c clips. Hence the high failure rate of them popping off. Floppy loose is bad, but too tight is worse. Follow the manufacture of the bearings specs. Or follow Toyota’s methods, but that requires using new bearings every 30k.

I’m sorry but this is simply not true. You would much rather want the preload at the tighter end of the spectrum than the looser end. Especially since they loosen up over time. Setting preload at the minimum FSM recommendation of 9lbs will yield approx. 7lbs or less after ~500mi. That is dangerously loose. Using the proper kind and proper amount of grease in the bearings & hub + aiming for 12-15lbs of preload is optimal.

 

[birch hill]

12-15 is not that much. Not likely to hit the right pull on the old fish scale with used bearings. A lot of people are going double or triple that to get the right scale reading.

 

[TheForger]

12-15 is not that much. Not likely to hit the right pull on the old fish scale with used bearings. A lot of people are going double or triple that to get the right scale reading.

I think we just have some confusion in terminology. The FSM uses the term "preload" when referring to the fishscale method. "Preload" is synonymous with "breakaway" with what we're talking about.

 

[nissanh]

I have an excellent example of an OEM Toyota axle bearings vs an Aftermarket Koyo bearing.

I installed an OEM toyota axle bearing on a hilux rear axle. At the same time another customer installed a koyo axle bearing into his Hiace Van.

Initially, my OEM bearing has a minor play out of the box but it didn't worry me because it is OEM from a dealer. Then I saw Koyo aftermarkt had zero play out of the box.

Alright: both got installed. The the OEM toyota bearing is smooth, no play and I can spin the dust shield without a much effort, however, the aftermarket koyo bearing got too tight once installed into the axle. Toyota OEM bearing was made with the tolarance to spare the expansion of the inner race. Toyota tells their suppliers to make it according to their specifications. The supplier cannot use the same spec to make their own brand.

Toyota OEM parts are NOT, NOT just an aftermarket suppliers item in a Toyota box. I've been dealing with toyota's (only) since 1990 and know their superior quality.

I have LOTS of examples of Toyota quality: Here is another: Toyota Denso alternators lasts 250K miles (all from my experience) while Denso alternators (a subsidy of toyota) makes alternators for other manufacturers such as Honda and those fail in 100K miles (had to my cousin's 2011 Pilot)

Most Toyota bearings are NACHI, Koyo and NTN

Toyota Oil Seals are made by NOK and you cannot buy NOK as an aftermarket part. Toyota FIPG shelf life once open with cap on is months or years while other FIPG brands last max 1 month once open and stored (also compare the price difference). Consider toyota suspension bushings, those lasts easy 250 K miles, no aftermarket will last that long. All are my experience. Can go on and on....

Toyota OEM is NEVER any aftermarket part in a toyota box.

 

[birch hill]

I think we just have some confusion in terminology. The FSM uses the term "preload" when referring to the fishscale method. "Preload" is synonymous with "breakaway" with what we're talking about.

View attachment 2474230

Ok, I was referring to the lbs of tq on adjusting nut as preload