We need first aid training!
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Oh yeah, I'd like the S&R/doomsday scenario/nuclear holocaust/wall street crashing/ survival training too if possible
Apocalypse Man
All ya need to know.
-Mike-
I've had the WFR, and it is bomb-diggity! Perfect for the type of things that could happen on club runs. Only drawback is that it's kinda spendy. I'd take it again.
FWIW, I had an airline steward tell me that when they ask for medical help, they hope to get an EMT or Paramedic rather than any type of Dr.
FWIW, I had an airline steward tell me that when they ask for medical help, they hope to get an EMT or Paramedic rather than any type of Dr.
If I ever need help I want TroutRunner there... preferably unarmed.
-Mike-
-Mike-
I got your back B!
From my perspective there are 2 trains of thought when it comes to wilderness medicine. I'm talking way out there.
1. Do as much as you can to keep someone going until you get to a real place to help them.
2. Those who are gonna die...will. Those who aren't gonna die...won't.
Number 2 is a quote from a guy named Howard Donner. He’s an ER doc who was expedition doc for NOVA Everest trips and was a consultant to NASA for space exploration regarding medical problems. It doesn’t get more “wild” than space. NASA had plans for all kinds of crazy medical stuff and he told them Number 2. It was years ago since I heard Donner speak, but you all get the gist.
I’ve done wilderness training and it is all very fun to practice and go through scenarios prior to having to act in real life. This training is only as good as the med kit your willing to make and carry.
In reality there is really very little one can do in the woods without extensive kit/medications and proper tools. But there are easy things we can do while out in the field from a wheeling perspective.
For instance,
1. Chest Pain/Heart Attack - Take some aspirin. Then high tail it to the nearest help.
2. Broken Bones - No need to “set” the fracture, build a well padded splint, go to nearest help.
3. Allergic Reaction - Take some benadryl. You know who you are if you are crazy allergic to stuff, get an epi pen. Then go to the nearest help.
4. Diabetic Emergency - If you are a diabetic you need to bring medication for your high sugar, you must also bring candy/food/sugar pills for the possibilty of a low sugar event. Then go to nearest help.
5. Cardiac Arrest - I’m talking no pulse, not breathing. Yes there are situations where an AED (automated external defibrillators) will be useful but they are expensive. In a true cardiac arrest situation in BFE, the AED is the best option to save someone. CPR is cool, but I can’t imagine a good outcome doing CPR in the woods with a long ETA to a road or helicopter. See train of thought number 2 above. If the AED is present and works...then go to nearest help.
6. Respiratory Failure - You better be choking and getting the heimlich. True failure and I’d say your dead, again how long can we do mouth to mouth on you while trying to get off the trail. Minor respiratory complaints are different and should be treated by going to the nearest help.
7. Bleeding - Direct pressure, pressure points, tourniquets in rare cases. Then go to nearest help
8. Head injury - Go to nearest help.
9. Asthma - Bring you inhaler and some prednisone if you are and asthmatic. since you brought the steroids I would offer it to the allergic reaction guy as well. If your asthma is really acting up...go to nearest help.
10. Vomiting/Diarrhea - Were in trucks, should be able to drive to nearest help.
Is anyone else noticing a trend...you must seek out the nearest help! Not much rocket science going on. The trucks are more complicated than anything I mentioned above. Add in hypothermia and dehydration and I think we have it covered. I always throw a sleeping bag in the back and bring plenty of water.
One of the best things HDC has is all the HAM operators. In a real emergency don’t be afraid to call for help and don’t be afraid to ask for helicopter service. Having GPS location is great and can be of great help. Our Air Care service at San Juan, often is first on scene out in BFE, they rock and roll and zip patients back to me all the time. Wheeling to a landing zone is way better than trying to get all the way out of the woods, plus the air crews are usually full of fantastic paramedics and flight nurses. They have the kit on board needed to change the course of the problem.
I’m not trying to dissuade people from taking the classes because they do generate a sense of awareness that can be half the battle. I mean, if your thinking about how screwed you are if you roll the truck then you may not be so fast to jam the skinny pedal.
By the way, I think pets are great on wilderness trips, it gives you something to eat when you run out of food.
TR
From my perspective there are 2 trains of thought when it comes to wilderness medicine. I'm talking way out there.
1. Do as much as you can to keep someone going until you get to a real place to help them.
2. Those who are gonna die...will. Those who aren't gonna die...won't.
Number 2 is a quote from a guy named Howard Donner. He’s an ER doc who was expedition doc for NOVA Everest trips and was a consultant to NASA for space exploration regarding medical problems. It doesn’t get more “wild” than space. NASA had plans for all kinds of crazy medical stuff and he told them Number 2. It was years ago since I heard Donner speak, but you all get the gist.
I’ve done wilderness training and it is all very fun to practice and go through scenarios prior to having to act in real life. This training is only as good as the med kit your willing to make and carry.
In reality there is really very little one can do in the woods without extensive kit/medications and proper tools. But there are easy things we can do while out in the field from a wheeling perspective.
For instance,
1. Chest Pain/Heart Attack - Take some aspirin. Then high tail it to the nearest help.
2. Broken Bones - No need to “set” the fracture, build a well padded splint, go to nearest help.
3. Allergic Reaction - Take some benadryl. You know who you are if you are crazy allergic to stuff, get an epi pen. Then go to the nearest help.
4. Diabetic Emergency - If you are a diabetic you need to bring medication for your high sugar, you must also bring candy/food/sugar pills for the possibilty of a low sugar event. Then go to nearest help.
5. Cardiac Arrest - I’m talking no pulse, not breathing. Yes there are situations where an AED (automated external defibrillators) will be useful but they are expensive. In a true cardiac arrest situation in BFE, the AED is the best option to save someone. CPR is cool, but I can’t imagine a good outcome doing CPR in the woods with a long ETA to a road or helicopter. See train of thought number 2 above. If the AED is present and works...then go to nearest help.
6. Respiratory Failure - You better be choking and getting the heimlich. True failure and I’d say your dead, again how long can we do mouth to mouth on you while trying to get off the trail. Minor respiratory complaints are different and should be treated by going to the nearest help.
7. Bleeding - Direct pressure, pressure points, tourniquets in rare cases. Then go to nearest help
8. Head injury - Go to nearest help.
9. Asthma - Bring you inhaler and some prednisone if you are and asthmatic. since you brought the steroids I would offer it to the allergic reaction guy as well. If your asthma is really acting up...go to nearest help.
10. Vomiting/Diarrhea - Were in trucks, should be able to drive to nearest help.
Is anyone else noticing a trend...you must seek out the nearest help! Not much rocket science going on. The trucks are more complicated than anything I mentioned above. Add in hypothermia and dehydration and I think we have it covered. I always throw a sleeping bag in the back and bring plenty of water.
One of the best things HDC has is all the HAM operators. In a real emergency don’t be afraid to call for help and don’t be afraid to ask for helicopter service. Having GPS location is great and can be of great help. Our Air Care service at San Juan, often is first on scene out in BFE, they rock and roll and zip patients back to me all the time. Wheeling to a landing zone is way better than trying to get all the way out of the woods, plus the air crews are usually full of fantastic paramedics and flight nurses. They have the kit on board needed to change the course of the problem.
I’m not trying to dissuade people from taking the classes because they do generate a sense of awareness that can be half the battle. I mean, if your thinking about how screwed you are if you roll the truck then you may not be so fast to jam the skinny pedal.
By the way, I think pets are great on wilderness trips, it gives you something to eat when you run out of food.
TR
there you have the basics for the serious stuff!
so we might as well get a little something off the ground instead of talking it to death and not doing anything...
what day do those interested want to go over how to splint, bleeding control, etc.? we can pick a day I am at work, and you can have access to practice materials. we can actually do hands on stuff, look at what is in your kit, my kit and what you should carry. I work Saturday this weekend.
so we might as well get a little something off the ground instead of talking it to death and not doing anything...
what day do those interested want to go over how to splint, bleeding control, etc.? we can pick a day I am at work, and you can have access to practice materials. we can actually do hands on stuff, look at what is in your kit, my kit and what you should carry. I work Saturday this weekend.
Ron is trying to get a run together this weekend, but who knows. I would be intersested, I guess there are more things suitable than duct tape for any of these situations...
If I ever need help I want TroutRunner there... preferably unarmed.
-Mike-
Unarmed? Number 2 may just may be the better and easier way. You may want to think twice about that.
you joke, but when I worked in Tucson we carried white duct tape for many things. why white? it looks more "medical".
I forgot about the run. how about sat. evening about 5 or 6? the next weekend I don't work and the 24th is the other run. I then work Sunday the 31st.
you guys choose.
I think two general themes have developed after reading all the comments. There seems to be a desire to have some type of training. Several members have expressed the willingness to take a formal course. There has also been an offer of a general workshop. I would be happy to help with either if the dates are clear on my calendar. Here is what I can offer the club. If you wish to have a formalized training, I'm willing to offer to teach any of the "Wilderness Medical Courses". One of the members mentioned they are expensive, that is a correct statement. I'm willing to forgo any payment for my services. This will significantly reduce the price of the course. Upside: expensive course for free, with the exception of course materials (which include: textbook, lecture notes, field-guide, patient report forms, tee shirt, certificate, pin and patch). Downside: it is a real course with a real test at the end. I would suggest the Wilderness Advanced First Aid course. If people want additional training in the future, this can be bridged to an advanced "Wilderness Course" within a three year period. The initial course would be four days. The bridge course would be an additional four days. either of these courses can be broken down into one day segments and taught over several weeks. It does not have to be a four day push.
I would highly suggest that part of the saving be used by the club to buy appropriate first aid supplies in bulk. This would allow members taking the class to practice with the actual supplies in their personnel kit. It would also greatly reduce the cost of a kit, plus make it much more useful.
Another option; if people are not particularly interested in the formal certification and just want knowledge, I would be happy to do a series of workshops that cover the same material. This would be totally free. If this were the direction the club wanted to go in, my only concern is sometimes when things are free people don't put the same level of comment into the training. Many of the skills taught in these courses; wound cleaning, splinting, lifting and moving, bleeding control, etc. you get out of it what you put into it.
Regardless of any decision this club has an amazing amount of medical expertize. Whatever direction we go in we should try to incorporate as many instructors as possible to capitalize on the wealth of experience.
Last, TroutRunners post is very accurate. In a Wilderness environment the most valuable assets the club has is its ability to communicate with outside agencies and transport the patient. All the wilderness courses are very pragmatic. They don't hesitate to point out which injuries will kill the patient. As TroutRunner pointed out they tend to make you much more careful. What they excel at is giving very clear protocols on when its OK to stay and play (continue to stay of the trail) or when the injury dictates that everyone's focus be on getting the patient to advanced medical care. Having the training to make these decisions is probably more important than of the other skills.
If the group wants to do the one day get-together, I can bring examples of all the latest gadgets. Let me know how I can help. If the group wants a formal course let me know and I will explore the actual cost.
I would highly suggest that part of the saving be used by the club to buy appropriate first aid supplies in bulk. This would allow members taking the class to practice with the actual supplies in their personnel kit. It would also greatly reduce the cost of a kit, plus make it much more useful.
Another option; if people are not particularly interested in the formal certification and just want knowledge, I would be happy to do a series of workshops that cover the same material. This would be totally free. If this were the direction the club wanted to go in, my only concern is sometimes when things are free people don't put the same level of comment into the training. Many of the skills taught in these courses; wound cleaning, splinting, lifting and moving, bleeding control, etc. you get out of it what you put into it.
Regardless of any decision this club has an amazing amount of medical expertize. Whatever direction we go in we should try to incorporate as many instructors as possible to capitalize on the wealth of experience.
Last, TroutRunners post is very accurate. In a Wilderness environment the most valuable assets the club has is its ability to communicate with outside agencies and transport the patient. All the wilderness courses are very pragmatic. They don't hesitate to point out which injuries will kill the patient. As TroutRunner pointed out they tend to make you much more careful. What they excel at is giving very clear protocols on when its OK to stay and play (continue to stay of the trail) or when the injury dictates that everyone's focus be on getting the patient to advanced medical care. Having the training to make these decisions is probably more important than of the other skills.
If the group wants to do the one day get-together, I can bring examples of all the latest gadgets. Let me know how I can help. If the group wants a formal course let me know and I will explore the actual cost.
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you joke, but when I worked in Tucson we carried white duct tape for many things. why white? it looks more "medical".
I forgot about the run. how about sat. evening about 5 or 6? the next weekend I don't work and the 24th is the other run. I then work Sunday the 31st.
you guys choose.
Ok, I had I guy that said he had never seen black, but I have gone through serveral other colors, but not white. The next weekend would sound better for me, but a group decision would sound best.
Ok, How about a lesson first in informal first aid (Cy, Shawn etc.. can show us the basics and what we need for later) and another in a formal one (certified) for those that want to push on? (in easy non-technical terms of the courses). That way those that only can afford one day can learn some basics, and those that have the time to learn more can. Just a thought
for discussion sake- how many people are interested in a full on certified course? how many for the course in noncertified form? (thanks Cy for the offer) the $ will likely be footed by the individual since it will be a minority of the club taking the course, but that can be up for discussion after we see how many are interested.
I will give a general first aid non certified, day class as mentioned regardless. Cy, if you are free when it happens, feel free to come help.
I will give a general first aid non certified, day class as mentioned regardless. Cy, if you are free when it happens, feel free to come help.
NMBruce
SILVER Star
Just saw this, good information, this summer I am going to the Arctic and Alaska with some older people and this is good information. Along with adding this to my travel packet, I am asking everyone on this trip to have medical information written down and in a seal envelope that can be given to medical personal encase they cant talk, like blood type, medicine they are on and dose, what they are Allergic to and more
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I wear a Road ID when I ride. I've also started wearing it when I'm out and about hiking solo. It doesn't have this information, but it does have a phone number, or website, where they can obtain it.
I may be able to accomodate if you can wait a month or so. I start a new position in the office on Monday as Captain of EMS. I may even have access to some helpful props. BUT, it's gonna take a bit for me to get caught up on my new duties. I'm gonna be a 9-5er like some of you poor chaps now. 
NMBruce
SILVER Star
I like that idea
