V8 swap Q's

[preacherman]

I have searched the forum for a couple of hours and still had a few questions about a possible V8 swap I may do. Sorry if my questions are repetitive.

So here is the low down.
1983 FJ60 with a blown engine. I drove a 5.7 V8 6o last year and fell in love, so that's what I am thinking about doing. I would like to do a simple 350 set up. Here is what I am thinking.

Option 1:
A carbed chevy 350 with a 700r mated to the stock 19-spline t-case. Carbed because it's easy to work on, slightly cheaper than a vortec, and rock solid. I like the 700r because it has an overdrive (I would like highway speed ability) and is a strong tranny. The stock t-case is solid and may get a set of 3.1 gears. Hopefully I can reuse the stock radiator with a conversion fan shroud or electric fans.

So here are my questions.
With this set up will I need to fab a rear cross-member or is one available somewhere?
The AA adapter includes the short tail shaft, do I have to open the tranny to change it or just remove the tail cone?
Anyone have any idea how much drive shaft modification I will have to do? Will shortening and lengthening be enough or will the rear one be way short?
What am I missing about this set up?????

Option 2
Carbed 350 with stock 4 speed. With this set up I like the marks adapter because the does not need to be adjusted. Does the AA or Downey adapter follow suit? This set up is appealing because it seems simpler and I am used to driving the 4 speed all over the country so thats no biggie, plus I could do a H55f swap later if desired. What am I missing about this set up?

Before you ask.....I know the carbed swap is less popular than the vortec but I like it for a few reasons. 1. Simple parts, simple set up, strong, lots of parts availability in out of the way places. 2. I live in Texas and drop below the border a lot to explore. A carb would be easy to work on and will have less parts and sensors to screw up plus it does not care how bad the grade of gas is as much as a vortec would. Once again I have driven my carbed 60 all over the country and I am used to a carb and it's disadvantages.

Thanks for the help.

 

[effjay60]

if simple and reliable is what you're after, I'd toss out the 700r4 idea. Standard transmissions are simpler and more reliable and you'd be retaining more factory toyota parts.

 

[Elbert]

THe Mark's adapter is sold by AA in the USA. I think the Downey product requires driveshaft modificaitons (lengthen on and shorten one). I have the mark's adapater and like it. I think a 700 trans is very reliable and it a good option. I belive you require an adapater to mate the tras with the toyota transfer case, I also think you have to fab up a cross-member / mount for the trans. I think the output shaft of the 700 has to be modifed also. With the 700 how do you plan to control the torque converter?

I think for overall simplicity the Mark's adapter with the 4 speed is the way to go, but I'm sure you would want a 5 speed. I could have saved some $$ going with a carb. If you not serious about rock climbing or extreme angles I think a carb would be fine.

 

[FZJ80ismybaby]

would putting a 350 in, put a lot of stress on the gearing, or axles in the back. the most im worried about is putting a big engine in, and having to face a lot of weaker links breaking along the way afterwards

 

[cody c]

would putting a 350 in, put a lot of stress on the gearing, or axles in the back. the most im worried about is putting a big engine in, and having to face a lot of weaker links breaking along the way afterwards

i think the next weak link is a toyota transmission. sure there is more power to the drivetrain but then you are also loosing weight by going to the 5.7

 

[FZJ80ismybaby]

what about the diff being way to one side, will that make a difference?

 

[Bret]

Only if you swap the transfer case.

As far as increased wear and tear, only as much as you push on the skinny and how hot the motor is. I would consider making the 350 a 383 with a very mild cam for bottom end grunt.

 

[FZJ80ismybaby]

what do you mean?....

 

[Bret]

When you swap the motor the rest of the drivetrain generally doesn't have to move side to side much. So the outputs of the transfer case stay on the same side as the differentials. If you swap the transfer case to a centered output then the rear differential will no longer be lined up with the rear transfer case output. So then you look for an axle with a centered diff.

Make sense??

 

[FZJ80ismybaby]

oh, yeah, 4WD adapters sells the conversion parts to keep the A440 trani and t-case right, either that, or i have a donor for the chevy 5 speed manual trani, and suggestions would be awesome

 

[Bret]

Prolly best to move to a new thread so as not to hijack this one any further. Identify what you have, what you can get, and what you want to do to get there.

 

[ginericLC]

You can reuse your crossmember when using the 700r4 but it will be placed back further on the frame and you will need new drivelines. Use a mechanical clutch fan. It will produce more CFMs than most electric fans. You can turn the factory shrowd upside down and do some minor trimming to make it work with the 350. The factory radiator will be taxed pretty hard with a V8. I'd go with a new aluminum radiator. I would also use a seperate cooler from radiator for the transmission. And depending upon how you mount it you might want to run an electric fan on that cooler.

I would not use the Toyota Automatic behind a V8. The adapters add a ton of rotating mass by using both a manual tranny flywheel on the motor and then a spindle adapter and then finally the Toyota flexplate.

The 700r4 is a fine tranny for this swap. Early 700r4s had a bad rap but they improved and fixed the issues. Any one you buy rebuilt will be updated. And if you are using a used tranny, if it was an early one it probably already failed.

I've done a few V8 swaps in 60s using various methods. My preferred method is the 700r4 to the split case. The Ranger Underdrive/Overdrive is OK but it adds complexity to the situation. I prefer the Downey bellhousing to the Mark's adapter. It is more simple and stronger if retaining the Toyota manual. The Toyota manual will be fine for this application. The NV4500 (GM 5 speed) is a fine tranny but it is more truck like than the Toyota tranny. It is about the same amount of work as doing the 700r4 swap. The nice thing about the 700r4 is it gives lower gearing with the torque convertor and an overdrive.

Don't figure this is going to be cheap. Hoses, wiring, exhaust, cooling, etc... it all adds up. There are folks who say it is cheaper to do a conversion versus rebuilding a Toyota motor and they are lying to themselves or their pocket book. Either that or they are doing a really crappy job.

Personally I'd never do a carb on a 350. I'd at least go with a TBI. They are simple to work on and the performance and economy is better.

 

[preacherman]

Thanks for the replies. I will see if I can answer a few questions that arose.
The reason I like the carb option is that this truck will is set up for more desert exploring wheeling than rock crawling. I have been thinking more and more about TBI or an after-market solution like a Holley projection. Another reason I am turned off with the Vortec is that I live in a smaller town with limited availability of used ones, plus I am worried about getting a turd engine that has something wrong with it. I want a 100% new engine set so that I personally know the history of every part. I plan on building a V8 from scratch that way I know what's in it and how much life it has left. I would hate to do an engine swap to a 60K used engine to find out while in Mexico the PO only changed oil every 10K....I would feel better about taking my family on these long trips if I new the history of every part. It may sound goofy but it will make me sleep better while on a remote beach in Baja with my kids. Someone already mentioned it but I have also considered a 383 stroker for that low end oomph.

If I go with the 700r I plan on using the painless kit for the auto lock up...I cannot remember who asked about that...

Last thing, I have done engine swaps in jeeps before and I have no allusions about the price being as cheap as people make it out to be. I have found that all the misc parts and pieces are what nickel and dime ya to death...plus make the project crawl to a stop. Right now the FJ is not my DD so I have lots of time to do it right.

Thanks for the help so far!

 

[Elbert]

As the guy said above... A TBI swap would just be about perfect. Simple components, very reliable, reasonable power. You can buy GM crate motors (long blocks) brand new from GM for reasonable prices. TBI engines came in pickups, caprices and roadmasters...

I too, like the simplicity of a carb, but I like the power of fuel injection (stock engine), the reliability and stability of fuel injection. Turn the engine over one time and they fire right up (cold or hot).

I think you could have a nice ride with a 700trans & carb setup. Pay careful attention to the height and orentation of the the engine (left to right) when you are fabricating the position of the engine mounts. At least with the Mark's adapaters there is not much room between the water pump and the radiator.

Less aggrivation with a carb setup.

 

[cody c]

Thanks for the replies. I will see if I can answer a few questions that arose.
The reason I like the carb option is that this truck will is set up for more desert exploring wheeling than rock crawling. I have been thinking more and more about TBI or an after-market solution like a Holley projection. Another reason I am turned off with the Vortec is that I live in a smaller town with limited availability of used ones, plus I am worried about getting a turd engine that has something wrong with it. I want a 100% new engine set so that I personally know the history of every part. I plan on building a V8 from scratch that way I know what's in it and how much life it has left. I would hate to do an engine swap to a 60K used engine to find out while in Mexico the PO only changed oil every 10K....I would feel better about taking my family on these long trips if I new the history of every part. It may sound goofy but it will make me sleep better while on a remote beach in Baja with my kids. Someone already mentioned it but I have also considered a 383 stroker for that low end oomph.

If I go with the 700r I plan on using the painless kit for the auto lock up...I cannot remember who asked about that...

Last thing, I have done engine swaps in jeeps before and I have no allusions about the price being as cheap as people make it out to be. I have found that all the misc parts and pieces are what nickel and dime ya to death...plus make the project crawl to a stop. Right now the FJ is not my DD so I have lots of time to do it right.

Thanks for the help so far!

looks like you got a good idea of what to do to do it right, and what your up against!

 

[snowbored]

I have a carb'd 350 in mine, specifically wanted a carb for the reasons you state, and to be honest, a month into it and I wish I'd gone fuel injected. Too many years of having cars that just work I guess. Waiting for it to warm up in the mornings. Having to fuss with it to get decent fuel economy. Troubles when running at odd angles (and don't we have these to run them at odd angles). If you're going to Mexico its easy to find people to work on Chevy TBI stuff, but I highly doubt you'll find anyone for the after market Holly. Carry an extra fuel pump as I have seen more people totally dead in the mountains from a bad fuel pump than ANYTHING else (maybe due to stirring up junk on the bad roads?) and I think you would be good. BUT, if you have kids, working with them on the engine, showing them the direct impact changes to the carb make, etc, is a pretty cool thing. It would be cooler if I could actually tune like my dad did, but my kids don't know how well it COULD run so no need to tell them it could be better. I would also suggest going with a Chevy tranny/transfer case. That way who you find to do engine work down there can work on the whole drive train, and not have to go back and forth between Chevy and Toyota guys. Plus you can just pull parts from a broken down Suburban down there.

 

[Downey]

Here's my 2 cents: go down to the Baja 1000, walk up and down contengency row the day before the race, and try to find ANYTHING that has a carburetor or stick shift!!!
Everybody from the racers to the local ranchers have found fuel injection to be far more reliable than carburetion in the boonies of Baja. This is particularly true since late model EFI has limp-home capability should anything go wrong with the injection. Carburetors don't have this provision. Also keep in mind that pratically nothing has been carbureted since the mid 1980's, so even the mechanics in the boonies are very well versed in EFI repair.
The reason the racers want auto trannys is because they normally take considerably more torque than a stick, but more importantly, they give "drivetrain cushioning", which is crucial in desert racing. The racers are on and off the ground all day long without ever letting off the throttle. If their tires kept slamming into the ground under full throttle with a stick shift, they would twist axles off every stinking race (translation: DNF).

 

[lehiguy]

Here's the story of my Cruiser. The first thing that HAD to happen was a desmog with a Weber, a fluid heat riser and a header. It still passed emissions and ran much, much better. Then I got my hands on an H55F. It didn't help the milage, but it was nicer to drive down the freeway and the first gear ratio was a huge improvement. Somewhere along the way I swapped out the axle gears to 4.11s and put 33" times on it. Well, I finally threw in to towel and built a 350 after two failed attempts to make the six run like an eight. I used a Mark's bellhousing adapter and drove it that way for 100K. The drive train never failed even under the additional torque and HP of the 350 which, by the way, made more power that I had hoped for and used less gas then the 2F. Just this year I pulled that tranny and replaced it with an NV4500 with an NP241 and a Chevy 14-bolt semi-floater six-lug axle in back for the centered differential. All the while this was a carburated motor that got 17 MPG on it's last trip to Moab, 16MPG on the way home. I just did TBI on this same engine and I have yet to see an increase in milage. As far as costs go, I spent less on the NV4500 than I did on the H55F, the T-cases are almost free and anybody can rebuild it, (it's so easy I can't believe it.) The axle was dirt cheap as were the rotors and calipers for the disk brakes. No, I still don't have a park brake... Anyway, there are a thousand ways to build one of these, it all depends on how much you want to spend. I have loved the NV4500, it has a deeper first gear and a taller overdrive, and they are vitually unbreakable with a gas engine. The T-case rocks with it's 2.72:1 reduction and it saps less power going down the road. The axle is an upgrade in strength to the LC axle, although, as I said, I never broke anything with the stock stuff. I liked the Rochester very much after getting it dialed in and you can't argue with the price of one of these things from a wrecking yard. Some people hate them, they are always the same people who don't understand how to set one up. FI is easy if you swap an entire engine and computer. If you modify or build your own engine, you will be tuning the FI with your laptop and getting chips burned instead of changing jets, rods and springs. Stock TBI chevys were anemic, but the TBI can support much, much more power, with modifications, than any factory TBI setup ever had and the parts are fairly cheap for that too. I'm sticking to the modified TBI setup that I have, but it has not shown the return on investment that most of the other mods did. I suppose I would not think that way if the carb had not worked as well as it did which, as I said, is certainly achievable if you have to know-how and the patience not to mention the almost ridiculous simplicity of a mechanical fuel pump and a carb. Although I've gone over to the dark side, I'm still a fan of the good, old-fashioned mixer! You might check out www.tbichips.com for some inspiration. I got my chip from this guy, and as his website will show, a simple TBI setup can yeild huge power numbers as well as milage if done right.

 

[Tapage]

did you plan to run bigger tires .. and stock gearing .. ?

 

[blackandbluefj]

tbi is the way to go just did one on mineand love it. stood it up on its tail for quite a while and idled no prob can a carb do that. good luck


Bryon