V35A-FTS bearing issue? (6 Viewers)

[TheLCProject]

Ok, so stop driving yours then if you're worried about it. Just like another day on the freeway for a Jeep.

But if you think Toyota is going to preventatively replace the short block on ten of thousands of trucks....maybe they will..but the last time this happened people had to fight tooth and nails for the better part of a decade to get new frames.

 

[OGBeno]

So a process issue both in the US and JP.

So, with Toyota, process is the same globally for the same widget they are manufacturing.

That’s why they are Toyota.

That said: the people are different, the notions of rationalization are different, and management is different. Engine manufactured at Tahara or Bodine is “theoretically” the same. But we do know as reasonably intelligent humans that that is not the case.

Regardless, I’m pretty unconcerned about the process issues at hand. This isn’t 1990 anymore.

Everything is tracked with Denso RFID system as well as individual supplier/machine/operator/output/QA/QC tags that follow everything now.

They know exactly what the call is.

Now, they just need to figure out how to fix the process issue at the cheapest cost possible. Everything is about cost vs perception and what an audience will accept.

Again, this is Toyota. One of the most powerful corporations on this thing called Earth.

 

[SanJuanJ]

The 200 passenger airbag/seatbelt recall was not a “do not drive”. It was “Toyota recommends no passengers sit it the front passenger seat” (until the recall remedy is available ).

Let's not get bogged down with accuracy and details

 

[jayp2]

Maybe its time for toyota and other manufacturers to start taking steps to simplify drive trains and vehicles in general

Clearly, current manufacturing is way way past the point of diminishing returns (and cost to maintain)

 

[OregonLC]

The 200 passenger airbag/seatbelt recall was not a “do not drive”. It was “Toyota recommends no passengers sit it the front passenger seat” (until the recall remedy is available ).

Essentially the same when you have a family.

 

[OregonLC]

Somewhat relevant to this topic, Dave's Auto is big in the DuraMax, PowerStroke, and Cummins world for engine solutions and rebuilds. Worthy of following on social, he has really good stuff. One thing he preaches is the need to thoroughly clean after machine work or it will be the death of the build.

In the world of one-off builds the human element can ensure the thoroughness of the clean. In the industrial world I can see were once a process is setup it is simply followed without the time for a craftsman to see what's going on, regardless of how good the factory is. Often in manufacturing this can happen as an unintended consequence of a process improvement; you fixed a delay in one step but did not realize you left a debris trap until the issues showed up in the wild six months later.

Anyway, here's Dave. Follow if you're a gearhead.

 

[Phillyd2]

Anyone have any speculation / wild-ass-guess on what the 'fix' may be?

 

[TheLCProject]

If I had a new vehicle with this engine I'd have the oil replaced at 100, 500, again at 1000, and then 2500, and then 5000. With each sample getting sent off for analysis to guide the intervals.

I'd save all the used oil filters, too.

 

[Jeremy556]

Anyone have any speculation / wild-ass-guess on what the 'fix' may be?

If it is a clogged oil passage in the block, starving the front bearing of oil, which the tear down pictures seem to indicate, the fix is probably going to be replace the engine blocks that grenade. Perhaps they will come up with an oil analysis or some other way to indicate a failure early. I think a drop the oil pan for visual inspection is probably too labor intensive.

 

[RoaringFork]

I’ve been with audi service for a long time… we went through a very similar situation post covid, their newest engine plant in Mexico had assembly/debris issues causing con-rod bearing failures. Same result, catastrophic failures, metal throughout the lubrication system. This only applied to the Mexican built 4 cylinder turbos, in far less numbers than this toyota issue.

This post is not to say what Toyota will/should do, but compare what Audi did.

The situation started the same, engines knocking, stalling in traffic, punching holes in the block. Once the trend was noticed, a preliminary safety recall was announced with no remedy available. The manufactures are require to acknowledge there is an issue due to safety hazard, while gathering info for the repair. This took around a month(iirc). Then a remedy became available. There were different ways the campaign could be handled: if the vehicle came to the shop with the campaign open. The service tech, would evaluate for knocking, running rough, topical signs of a failing engine. The the oil filter would be removed and inspected for metal. If none found, the filter would be reinstalled and the vehicle would be test driven hard, multiple full throttle accelerations, in an attempt to make it let go. Then the filter would be removed again and inspected. If all is well the vehicle would be returned to the customer with a warranty extension for the engine assembly. If at any time metal was found, documentation of findings were sent for review, then a special complete engine part number would be ordered. This special complete engine entailed no parts swapping at all, including turbo, harness, and ECM. This repair applied to engine failures if the campaign had not been performed(failed on the customer prior to inspection) or engine failure/metal found during campaign.

If the campaign was performed and passed, then engine failure occurred, the repair would be long block/turbo replacement.

We found that there were engine failure outside of the scope of the campaign, due to tracking discrepancies. The engines are not built for specific VINs, so there were stragglers and carry overs that did not land in the VIN scope of the campaign. All none campaign vehicles were repaired with long blocks/turbos.(a possible example of how some ‘24 Toyotas are having issues)

Again, this is just for comparisons sake of how a different manufacturer handled a similar issue. The Audi campaign was 13i5 for anyone wanting to review in detail.

 

[Longrange762]

If I had a new vehicle with this engine I'd have the oil replaced at 100, 500, again at 1000, and then 2500, and then 5000. With each sample getting sent off for analysis to guide the intervals.

I'd save all the used oil filters, too.

 

[LX4x4]

The oil is pumped and has to go through a filter. If it already had contaminant get between the bearing from mile 0. The bearing is scratched. Changing the oil won’t do much good.

 

[RoaringFork]

I’ve been with audi service for a long time… we went through a very similar situation post covid, their newest engine plant in Mexico had assembly/debris issues causing con-rod bearing failures. Same result, catastrophic failures, metal throughout the lubrication system. This only applied to the Mexican built 4 cylinder turbos, in far less numbers than this toyota issue.

This post is not to say what Toyota will/should do, but compare what Audi did.

The situation started the same, engines knocking, stalling in traffic, punching holes in the block. Once the trend was noticed, a preliminary safety recall was announced with no remedy available. The manufactures are require to acknowledge there is an issue due to safety hazard, while gathering info for the repair. This took around a month(iirc). Then a remedy became available. There were different ways the campaign could be handled: if the vehicle came to the shop with the campaign open. The service tech, would evaluate for knocking, running rough, topical signs of a failing engine. The the oil filter would be removed and inspected for metal. If none found, the filter would be reinstalled and the vehicle would be test driven hard, multiple full throttle accelerations, in an attempt to make it let go. Then the filter would be removed again and inspected. If all is well the vehicle would be returned to the customer with a warranty extension for the engine assembly. If at any time metal was found, documentation of findings were sent for review, then a special complete engine part number would be ordered. This special complete engine entailed no parts swapping at all, including turbo, harness, and ECM. This repair applied to engine failures if the campaign had not been performed(failed on the customer prior to inspection) or engine failure/metal found during campaign.

If the campaign was performed and passed, then engine failure occurred, the repair would be long block/turbo replacement.

We found that there were engine failure outside of the scope of the campaign, due to tracking discrepancies. The engines are not built for specific VINs, so there were stragglers and carry overs that did not land in the VIN scope of the campaign. All none campaign vehicles were repaired with long blocks/turbos.(a possible example of how some ‘24 Toyotas are having issues)

Again, this is just for comparisons sake of how a different manufacturer handled a similar issue. The Audi campaign was 13i5 for anyone wanting to review in detail.

View attachment 3645013

View attachment 3645014

I edited post above to include pics of metal found in the oil filter of a failed engine.

 

[OSS]

The debris is likely larger machining swarf that can get lodged and stuck in small passages. Probably not circulating fine metal dust that can be filtered out by the oil filter.

 

[OGBeno]

The most cost effective “fix” for this, as an outsider with no knowledge of Toyota risk amortization and warranty analysis:

New, updated process short blocks.

1. Takes the human (IE: the tech at dealerships) element out and places responsibility completely on the short block manufacturing process internally at Toyota (where they have control and influence).

2. Toyota short blocks are built at pennies on the dollar; tech time/machine shop time/delays etc are not controllable; This needs to be controlled internally.

3. Parts-wise, it’s a no brainer. Short block, engine gasket kit, some hardware, fluids and testing. Away it goes. Parts are the most controllable aspect of this situation because the engine is an in-house built engine: It’s not outsourced to a Toyota Group supplier like diesels to Toyota Industries.

4. The situation could quite literally be: during X machining process, Y tooling cleaning was not overseen by Z operator. Remedy: oversee Y tooling cleaning operation with Z human back in loop. That’s an easy fix. Again, controllable at the mass manufacturing level.

Leaving bottom-end rotating assembly fixes to dealership techs is a **bad** idea. Too much that can go wrong both environmentally as well as with human factors.

Toyota has perfected engine building writ large: I’d concentrate on fixing process and amortizing parts for this recall.

 

[TheLCProject]

The oil is pumped and has to go through a filter. If it was already contaminant got between the hearing from mile 0. The bearing is scratched. Changing the oil won’t do much good.

Whether it's big or small debris, changing the fluid frequently is going to give you the best chance of success, right? Or do you think leaving all of that junk in there (big or small) for the first 5,000 or 10,000 miles is better?

I know on my new Honda they don't and didn't charge me a dime to go in at 500, 2,500, and 5,000 when the book said 7,500 for the first. They covered it and saved some oil for me.

 

[LX4x4]

Whether it's big or small debris, changing the fluid frequently is going to give you the best chance of success, right? Or do you think leaving all of that junk in there (big or small) for the first 5,000 or 10,000 miles is better?

I know on my new Honda they don't and didn't charge me a dime to go in at 500, 2,500, and 5,000 when the book said 7,500 for the first. They covered it and saved some oil for me.

It might help or just delay the bearing damage, but it won't hurt, yeah I would change the oil if I had one of these engines but won't believe that it is a fix.

I feel Toyota described the issue in a simple terms that people can understand (or is it just a covered up of a machining issue). We don't know the root cause, if it is debris stuck in the oil passage causing the bearing to get insufficient lubrication? In that case the bearing will continue to wear until the rod knocks.

 

[Acrad]

"TOYOTA V35A-FTS ENGINE FAILURES (PUBLIC - Updated May 31, 2024) - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17lX2NAC70TUArOpvdH7IQJKCX5E50vAXpeUogyH5shM/edit#gid=780956012"

OFFICIAL: MY22+ Toyota Tundra V35A-FTS (Type '21) Engine Failure Questionnaire Results - 05/28/24

[ATTACH] FORM UPDATE - MAY 28, 2024 @ 5:30pm Central CURRENT AVG MILEAGE @ FAILURE - 29,822 (47,994 KM) TOYOTA V35A-FTS (TYPE '21) ENGINE FAILURES...

www.tundras.com

 

[OSS]

$75,000 gamble. No thanks

 

[OGBeno]

I wish people would stop posting social media/YT clowns. Every single one of them are cringe-worthy. And the fact they are doing this to make money. It's just terrible watching these attention whores.