Using Turn Assist with a Trailer

[linuxgod]

We tow a 2005 Forest River Surveyor 235RS travel trailer and park it in an spot off a nearby alley. I pull into the alley going east-to-west (1), pulling as far south towards the gray garage as possible. I pull as far forward as I can and then turn right and go north (2), with my front bumper just barely clearing the fence in the NW corner on the drivers side. Then I back into the spot marked on the map (3).

On the NE side, there's a chain link fence that's cut at a 45 degree angle. Because the trailer follows a shorter turning radius than the vehicle, the truck stays on pavement but the trailer goes onto the dirt in that little triangle and comes within 6-12" of that fence. It's been fine with my current trailer, which is 24.5' and has a 17' wheelbase (hitch ball to center of the two axles). However we're looking at selling the trailer and getting either a Lance 2185 (25'9"), a 2013+ Surveyor SP260 (28'), or a 2015+ Aerolite 242BHSL (28'6" with 18'4" wheelbase).

So here are my questions:

1. Does anyone know how much of a reduction turn assist provides in the turning radius? I'm thinking with turn assist I might be able to pull a couple feet further forward, allowing me to start my right turn later and therefore not cutting the fence too close
2. Has anyone ever tried using turn assist on pavement with a trailer? Am I going to destroy my transfer case? I only need to move ~20-30' with it, but I'm going to do it 8-12 times per year and doing it with a hard right turn seems like it is going to maximize component stress
3. Does anyone know of a formula for me to accurately determine the impact of the additional trailer length on how much closer that turn will put me towards (or over) the fence? I've tried reading up on offtracking and swept width path engineering calculations, but they seem to be focused on tractor trailers.
4. Anyone know of any other triple bunk trailers like those that are <25'?

Ideally I'd be able to find a dealer that would let me "test drive" the trailer, but in reality none of the trailers I'm currently looking at are available near me.

 

[chilibit]

You might scrub some rubber off but turn assist does not involve the transfer case unless you go to low range with the center locked. Just some rubber. I use a tug with a front hitch but in general your task would give me nightmares. Sooner or later I would regret it. The skills of 'city' dwellers are clearly underrated. That is a compliment.

 

[Sandroad]

Hmmm.....until your post, I didn't even know they made 3 bunk trailers! I have a similar issue with parking. My spot requires a tricky "S" turn in a narrow drive. I've been considering one of the trailer movers to ease the job. I wonder if one of these would help you? Turning a double axle trailer tightly puts extra stress on the Land Cruiser, so I'd be reluctant to use turn assist on pavement while towing.

Parkit360° Trailer Dolly | Mover for Boats + RV Trailers

https://www.amazon.com/Trailer-Vale...PE1L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch&th=1&psc=1

 

[TeCKis300]

Never thought of turn assist potentially helping an articulated rig in this situation. Curious if it would work.

If that doesn't work, here's a few more strategies.
1) Consider making the initial right hand turn into the north street two parts, instead of a single continuous turn. Slightly overshoot the turn initially, pulling sharply into the NW fence corner. Then backup tightening into a jackknife. Then complete the turn. This should help you clear that NE fence corner. Do watch the trailer tail as it will swing more dramatically.
2) To me, without being on the ground, this looks potentially possible even without the #2 North street. Typical campsite situation where you have to back sharply into a campsite, off a narrow road. I think you marked the SW corner with a black dot? Looks possibly wide enough to pull west, doing "the scoop"/"the dip" at the face of the entry, and sharply backing it in.
3) If neither of the above two is possible, I've had great success with my Trailer Valet XL (linked by Sanroad) to get into my really really tight sideyard, which has a driveway gate only 14" wider (7" each side) than the actual trailer. Have to clear this while cutting a turn. I've done it many times without the dolly, but it is much safer as I have proper sight lines and control with the dolly. And certainly cheaper than repairing any possible damage.

I'm on a cul-de-sac so the front yard is narrow, but widens as it goes back. So I don't have a straight shot in. You can't see the driveway gate in this pic but it's at the tail of the trailer as it's being backed in here. The Trailer Valey XL can make very sharp turns with the trailer, but it the trailer will load up a bit cause of the tandem axles. Still very doable. It'll handle some off turf stuff too without issue. Just not great for any real inclines, so I backup the trailer up the driveway and into the more level paver pad, before switching to the dolly.

 

[John E Davies]

Have you actually used Turn Assist? It is very cool indeed but it is designed for 4Low and for loose terrain. I would never consider using it with a large heavy trailer attached. If you want to try it, and post a video, I would be delighted to watch and maybe it would change my mind.

In your shoes I would install a front receiver and just do it the way many thousands of other RVers have done, for decades. A front hitch (especially if offset a foot towards the passenger side of your truck) lets you see the trailer and make exceedingly tight turns.

If you have a backup camera on the trailer, it will be that much better. Once you use a trailer mounted one, even a cheap one with poor resolution, you will be amazed.



John Davies
Spokane WA

 

[tabraha]

@TeCKis300 that is exactly what I was going to suggest. If I had a bumper pull I'd own one of those. I have ~8" on both sides and 6" over the roof when I back our 5th wheel into my shop. I think my parking ability is the only reason my wife keeps me around at times.

 

[linuxgod]

Never thought of turn assist potentially helping an articulated rig in this situation. Curious if it would work.

If that doesn't work, here's a few more strategies.
1) Consider making the initial right hand turn into the north street two parts, instead of a single continuous turn. Slightly overshoot the turn initially, pulling sharply into the NW fence corner. Then backup tightening into a jackknife. Then complete the turn. This should help you clear that NE fence corner. Do watch the trailer tail as it will swing more dramatically.
2) To me, without being on the ground, this looks potentially possible even without the #2 North street. Typical campsite situation where you have to back sharply into a campsite, off a narrow road. I think you marked the SW corner with a black dot? Looks possibly wide enough to pull west, doing "the scoop"/"the dip" at the face of the entry, and sharply backing it in.
3) If neither of the above two is possible, I've had great success with my Trailer Valet XL (linked by Sanroad) to get into my really really tight sideyard, which has a driveway gate only 14" wider (7" each side) than the actual trailer. Have to clear this while cutting a turn. I've done it many times without the dolly, but it is much safer as I have proper sight lines and control with the dolly. And certainly cheaper than repairing any possible damage.

#1 seems like it would work similar to turn assist, but without needing to put the truck into 4Lo to do it. I might try that.

I don't think #2 is possible. The alley is maybe 12' wide and the fences are right up along the edge of the alley. I once tried coming in from the west side and it was impossible to get enough articulation to angle the trailer into any part of that lot with the white house (and fence) that's on the NE corner. If it was 16-18' wide perhaps. To black dot is a phone pole, but yes it's the SW corner of the intersection.

How big is the trailer valet? Do you put it in your trailer when you leave or leave it in your garage? I don't have a place to store it except in my trailer or in my LC. Afraid if I left it in the parking spot someone would steal it.

 

[linuxgod]

You might scrub some rubber off but turn assist does not involve the transfer case unless you go to low range with the center locked. Just some rubber. I use a tug with a front hitch but in general your task would give me nightmares. Sooner or later I would regret it. The skills of 'city' dwellers are clearly underrated. That is a compliment.

I wouldn't expect to lock the center diff, but turn assist requires low range. Not too worried about the rubber.

I'd like to get more clearance with a steel bumper, so while the idea of a front hitch sounds great it would give me an extra low point in the front, which is the opposite of what I'd like in the end. Unless I can figure out how to do a hitch mount inside a steel bumper somehow.

No nightmares currently. The first few times it took me a few attempts to make the turn correctly. Now I know the spots to line up. The fence still makes me nervous but I've always cleared it with 4-12", depending on my line. My wife or my 9 year old always spot me on the outside so I don't clip the garage with the back of the trailer (either when turning or backing up).

At this point I've probably done it 30+ times. The bigger nightmares for me are when someone is blocking the alley, or that one day I'm going to go pick up the trailer and find some construction that prevents me from maneuvering out!

 

[mcgaskins]

After using turn assist a couple of times in off road situations, I would not want to try it on pavement. For one, you have to also be in 4 low and in crawl mode which makes it very lurchy/jerky, and it's not easy to modulate brake and throttle in that mode. IIRC the computer gets to decide when it activates and deactivates which means it could act up on dry pavement. If you really want to try it, do a dry run without the trailer attached to see how it feels.

 

[TeCKis300]

It does seem to be a narrow alley. That extra foot or two really really really makes all that much difference.

The Trailer Valey XL is very compact! It is barely taller than the typical hitch height of a trailer. I could easily carry it in my trailer, but I only use it at home, which means I store it in the garage. There's no installation to be done. It adapts to the trailer via the ball coupler and a proprietary collar that snugs everything up. Once I get my trailer in place, I take it off and stow it away.

This pic might help. Drill for scale.

 

[TonyP]

After using turn assist a couple of times in off road situations, I would not want to try it on pavement. For one, you have to also be in 4 low and in crawl mode which makes it very lurchy/jerky, and it's not easy to modulate brake and throttle in that mode. IIRC the computer gets to decide when it activates and deactivates which means it could act up on dry pavement. If you really want to try it, do a dry run without the trailer attached to see how it feels.

Pretty much this. I don't know if there's a warning in the manual about using crawl and/or turn assist on pavement (especially while towing) but I wouldn't do it, personally.

 

[John E Davies]

I'd like to get more clearance with a steel bumper, so while the idea of a front hitch sounds great it would give me an extra low point in the front, which is the opposite of what I'd like in the end. Unless I can figure out how to do a hitch mount inside a steel bumper somehow.

If you buy or build a steel offroad bumper, it would be dead easy for a good metal fabricator to make you a quick detach 2 inch receiver that mounted to a pair of strong forward-facing shackle recovery points. Install the hitch, park the trailer, remove the hitch. You wouldn’t see an ugly receiver nor would it have to hang low.

The huge advantage of this setup over a dolly is that you can carry the hitch while you are towing, so if you get in a nasty situation when camping, you will be able to use it there also. Plus it would work fine on soft terrain, where the dolly would bog down.

You don’t have to mount one low, here is an example of a hidden, high receiver...

John Davies
Spokane WA

 

[John E Davies]

Here’s a cool Bodiak that bolts to factory tow hooks, unfortunately I think they went out of business...

Bodiak Hitches

John Davies
Spokane WA

 

[GordJ]

I don’t think you can use turn assist or crawl with a trailer. I tried and found that when the abs triggered it applied the trailer brakes too. I was using it on a downhill and had to turn off the crawl.
They may have updated the programming now.

 

[linuxgod]

I don’t think you can use turn assist or crawl with a trailer. I tried and found that when the abs triggered it applied the trailer brakes too. I was using it on a downhill and had to turn off the crawl.
They may have updated the programming now.

I could solve that by simply disconnecting the trailer wiring harness before trying it. But I'm thinking the overshoot and reverse jackknife method might give me the extra foot or so I may need. Then I can stop worrying about the fence and start worrying about the ass-end of a longer trailer contacting the garage.

The trailer valet seems the best for maneuverability. However the alley is paved but the parking spaces are dirt. So if I went that route I'd need to either lay down boards to roll over or stop, disconnect, and re-hook to the hitch to push it in the last few feet. The alley is also sort of sloped so runoff drains to the center - not sure if the dolly does OK pushing up a little grade.

It does seem to be a narrow alley. That extra foot or two really really really makes all that much difference.

Yeah here's a few photos I took of the spot a couple years ago.

Garage I'm parked next to. I have to roll the dumpster out of the way when parking, then put it back when I'm done.

View going east-to-west as I approach the intersection. You can see the dirt on the right that the trailer rolls over.

Facing north. Straight ahead is where I pull (#2 in the first post) before backing into the final spot.

Looking south. This is my reverse view

One more shot of the intersection. Canny observers will note the fence post against the house is slightly bent... that was my doing when backing into the spot once and not closely watching the front right corner of my bumper.

Good thing I have a few months to figure this out.

 

[TeCKis300]

Looking south. This is my reverse view
View attachment 1576975

While the alley is somewhat narrow, the entry width is more generous than I thought. Enough that I think my preferred strategy would be #2. The trailers in reverse can cut pretty darn sharp turns so long as you're careful not to jackknife. And with an observer outside to guide things.

2) To me, without being on the ground, this looks potentially possible even without the #2 North street. Typical campsite situation where you have to back sharply into a campsite, off a narrow road. I think you marked the SW corner with a black dot? Looks possibly wide enough to pull west, doing "the scoop"/"the dip" at the face of the entry, and sharply backing it in.

A front mounted hitch would make this situation especially easy, with the improved site-lines.

Having this technique in hand is tremendous to these situations:

 

[Dan Higgins]

First, I am dang impressed with the skill some of you have and the tight spots you are getting your trailers into!

@TeCKis300, “The Scoop” is one of the first vids I watched when we got our first trailer. I do get a kick out of the Lo Lo Ho couple and their videos.

 

[linuxgod]

While the alley is somewhat narrow, the entry width is more generous than I thought. Enough that I think my preferred strategy would be #2. The trailers in reverse can cut pretty darn sharp turns so long as you're careful not to jackknife. And with an observer outside to guide things.

Hmmm, I wonder if this will work. I'm almost sure it would if the north alley was a bit wider, or that fence on the NW corner wasn't quite so close. I wonder if I came in from the west side if this would actually work better, or if I could at least back into the open area (behind that Lexus RX), then pull forward up the north alley, and finally swing it back into the spot.

Now I'm sad I've already covered the trailer for the winter.

 

[John E Davies]

The scoop is a great start to learning how to back a bulky trailer. The big thing to understand and remember is that you are steering the hitch, not the tow vehicle. (This is why a front mounted hitch is so effective, the steering axle is three feet away, not fifteen feet.)

For a regular rear hitch, at the end of your scoop maneuver, say the last ten feet of forward motion, turn the steering hard in the opposite direction that you were turning. This kicks the hitch further in the direction it needs to go and also starts to rotate the trailer. Then you spin full opposite lock before starting to back up. They don’t mention this in the video....

Try it if you never have. It is really helpful in confined areas. Never focus so hard that you forget where the front end of your tow vehicle is, and especially be aware of trailer angle. Jacknifing hard is BAD and can occur extremely fast when the angle gets beyond say 75 degrees. A trailer with an extended tongue and a long ball mount may allow you to jacknife way past 90 degrees. This can be useful but it is still very dangerous, especially if you have plastic bumpers and protruding hard parts on the tongue. When backing hard I really like to back to my left, never the right, so I can stick my head clear out the window to watch. It really helps.

Fixed visual markers are great: “cut hard when the drivers mirror passes the mailbox”.... they can be a big help. It’s like the method they use to teach parallell parking.

Also very useful is a rear view camera with distance lines mounted up high on the back wall of the trailer.

John Davies
Spokane WA

 

[GordJ]

I could solve that by simply disconnecting the trailer wiring harness before trying it.

Face palm. So you’d go for the easy, obvious solution. Good point