Update: 5W-30 & Heavier Recommended RoTW (11 Viewers)

[Artie]

Majority of the wear in modern engines is at cold and dry starts.

I think about this often and, since you brought it up, figured I’d ask the group thoughts on this.

My Cruiser can go weeks, at times, between starts… should I be starting it more frequently? I can easily add a weekly 30-45 min drive if need be.

 

[Sandroad]

I think about this often and, since you brought it up, figured I’d ask the group thoughts on this.

My Cruiser can go weeks, at times, between starts… should I be starting it more frequently? I can easily add a weekly 30-45 min drive if need be.

Sure. Good for the battery, good for the oils and greases, good for the tires, good for the gas, and good for you.

 

[LX4x4]

I think about this often and, since you brought it up, figured I’d ask the group thoughts on this.

My Cruiser can go weeks, at times, between starts… should I be starting it more frequently? I can easily add a weekly 30-45 min drive if need be.

I couple of years ago I didn't drive my other vehicle for at least a week and sometimes every 3 weeks. I didn't change the oil for over a year. I noticed a slight oil consumption now although I am not sure it's related.

Although the tires on that car are as round as they could be, battery had a tender on it, and everything else is fine.

To avoid this, I try to add a drive mid week and on weekends, also try to use up the gas within 3 weeks.

 

[185]

1) Youtube oil gurus are great for entertainment but dont offer much in the way of educating enthusiasts about what oil really works and why.

If you are not an enthusiast and want to just enjoy the motor simply follow the owners manual recommendations based on what style of driving you meet. Most probably will end up following the severe schedule at 5k/6 months and will enjoy their rig for decades even with water disguised as oil in 0w20. Oil related failures on these motors in general are a rounding error at most.


2) If you dont use your rig often dont start the vehicle, let it idle and then turn it off. Take it on a nice hour long trip with alternating engine loads. Toyota has a storage guide for dealers and their sitting new car inventory, good advice and its available on nhtsa for your vehicle.


3) If you are an enthusiast, open the overseas manual. Those oil recommendations are going to be guardrails for what works in the motor. From there look at a particular oil's approvals; different from this oil meets the following ratings. Personally i like to follow MB229.5, MB229.71/2. They are the hardest ratings to achieve, test for extended intervals, and can stand up to the most everything you throw at them. If you want to compare how ratings perform in different areas, a good resource would the Lubrizol (supplier of oil additive packages to all the majors) and see for yourself.

Relative Performance Tools

Relative Performance Tool for Passenger Cars and Heavy Duty Vehicles: Comparisons of specifications.

360.lubrizol.com

4) Back to the pour point testing project farm and others use. Heres what engineers and chemists who design oils and motors use to spec. The safety of using a 0w over a 5w is insignificant for most. Personally I would say below 0 dont use 10w, but the SAE proves otherwise.

5) For enthusiasts or regular folks your best oil filter is going to be a well sealing and filtering air filter. From there, due to the cannister filter not much difference in filtration exists between OE and say supertech. Just make sure the filter you are using isnt some knockoff that tears the minute you start the motor. Again, with OE usually being a dollar more then the aftermarket, just use oem.

6) mixing oils is a highly contested topic. Some say you need a new motor after doing so, others have run millions of miles on frankenbrews. Do you, but if anything try to stay on brand; ie mix M1 0w40 with 10w30. If you are fearful, just keep it for a side project or use in an OPE.

 

[gaijin]

2) If you dont use your rig often dont start the vehicle, let it idle and then turn it off. Take it on a nice hour long trip with alternating engine loads. Toyota has a storage guide for dealers and their sitting new car inventory, good advice and its available on nhtsa for your vehicle.

For others who may not want to go down a time-consuming black hole in search of this document, here's a link to the Toyota doc:

Toyota Long-Term Vehicle Storage Guidelines

HTH

 

[Bryanmc]

Thoughts on this Blackstone report? I did just replace the alternator which required a bit of engine tear down. Would that influence the copper and silicon levels?

 

[185]

Thoughts on this Blackstone report? I did just replace the alternator which required a bit of engine tear down. Would that influence the copper and silicon levels?

not familar, but is the intake system intact or rather anything not sealing properly?

 

[rlynch356]

Nothing in an alternator replacement would touch oil...or shouldn't anyway.. (Water cooling alternators is not really a thing in the US, but probably should be)
so no effect there.

I'd keep an eye on the copper levels through one or two more cycles.... main bearings, cam bearings, etc..

Silicon is usually from sealants or lubrication sprays.. if you're using a KN air filter or similar. I would change to stock.. or if your driving in dusty environments, the air box is probably not sealing well (Common on all 200 engines).. and dusting..
easy enough to look at the intake tube from the filter for dust or contaminates.

 

[Artie]

Thoughts on this Blackstone report? I did just replace the alternator which required a bit of engine tear down. Would that influence the copper and silicon levels?

i just went through a few pages of this thread to look at some other reports to have something to compare your numbers too… those 2 values do seem elevated upon comparison.

Is this a new to you truck? I’m asking because it could be possible some other work was done before you acquired it.

Not to muddy the waters here but at 23k miles mine had copper at 6 and silicon at 13.

 

[Bryanmc]

I had a mouse nest on my filter recently. He'd made it from the insulation in the wheel well. Maybe something there?

Not a new truck to me, have had it about 4 years.

 

[JR YORK]

I'm also running a 30 weight. Redline 0w-30. I stayed down on the 0w-30 not for cold weather starting, but for a lower HTHS than their 5w-30. Their 5w-30 film strength is thicker than a 40 weight, where I was looking more for a mid to upper range 30 weight.

At the end of the day, if someone runs short trips and turns their motor back off before it can really heat up, then their 20 weight oil might be in the 30 weight range anyway due to lower heat build up. Conversely, if someone (like me) who chugs around in low range with little wind or tows heavy most of the time, a 20 weight might get a bit too hot, and act like a 16 or 8 weight.

But that is what I consider the real debate.

A 30 weight oil, will be a 20 weight if you heat it up past 100ºC; and a 20 weight oil may be a 60 weight oil when it is cold outside. But overall, is anyone here accurately measuring their oil temperature and determining that they are running their oil above that magic temperature? I doubt it. The only way I was able to was to drill a hole and add my own oil temp sensor in my pan.

Another thing to consider is thinner oils cool metal more efficiently than thick oils. If running the highway, I would want a thinner oil as I’m not loading down the motor at all.

Lastly, is anyone tearing their motors down and determining that their 20 weight oils are shearing and causing metal on metal damage?

At least for all of us, we have oil coolers as standard, so the potential of having super heated oil is even more reduced. That's all I would like to mention, is that it is the temperature at which our respective motors operate at the majority of the time based on our individual use. So one weight is not right for the next guy, its situation dependent.

Well put and very insightful.

 

[JR YORK]

I’ve been running Mobil 1 0w40 european formula on my LX570 for 90k miles (ever since I bought it). Changed every 10k. just like all my other cars. It has 185k miles now. Burns zero oil. No leaks anywhere. This truck gets driven regularly on not-so-short trips and is not babied. Does towing duty a few times a year. Zero problems what so ever.

I will say in my 15' LX, when I've gone 10,000 miles on an oil change interval, there were virtually no detergents left. As in less wear protection. I send mine off to Blackstone Labs every oil change as I bought it with 89,000 miles. I've tried 5k, 7,500 and 10k intervals. From a an objective scenario it seems 7,500 would be my upper limit. 5,000 shows very little breakdown and has some room to run. That is running 0W-20 Mobil1 synthetic.
Just some food for thought.

 

[185]

I'm also running a 30 weight. Redline 0w-30. I stayed down on the 0w-30 not for cold weather starting, but for a lower HTHS than their 5w-30. Their 5w-30 film strength is thicker than a 40 weight, where I was looking more for a mid to upper range 30 weight.

At the end of the day, if someone runs short trips and turns their motor back off before it can really heat up, then their 20 weight oil might be in the 30 weight range anyway due to lower heat build up. Conversely, if someone (like me) who chugs around in low range with little wind or tows heavy most of the time, a 20 weight might get a bit too hot, and act like a 16 or 8 weight.

But that is what I consider the real debate.

A 30 weight oil, will be a 20 weight if you heat it up past 100ºC; and a 20 weight oil may be a 60 weight oil when it is cold outside. But overall, is anyone here accurately measuring their oil temperature and determining that they are running their oil above that magic temperature? I doubt it. The only way I was able to was to drill a hole and add my own oil temp sensor in my pan.

Another thing to consider is thinner oils cool metal more efficiently than thick oils. If running the highway, I would want a thinner oil as I’m not loading down the motor at all.

Lastly, is anyone tearing their motors down and determining that their 20 weight oils are shearing and causing metal on metal damage?

At least for all of us, we have oil coolers as standard, so the potential of having super heated oil is even more reduced. That's all I would like to mention, is that it is the temperature at which our respective motors operate at the majority of the time based on our individual use. So one weight is not right for the next guy, its situation dependent.

Can you elaborate more on choosing a lower hths oil?

 

[skrypj]

Can you elaborate more on choosing a lower hths oil?

When I first read that post, I was thinking he meant NOACK HTHS didn’t register.

Yeah idk why you would want lower HTHS.

 

[TeCKis300]

Can you elaborate more on choosing a lower hths oil?

I think what he means is relative to 5W-30. There's a balance to be had and more is not always better.

In terms of HTHS weights, generally 0W-20 < 0W-30 < 5W-30

 

[185]

I think what he means is relative to 5W-30. There's a balance to be had and more is not always better.

In terms of HTHS weights, generally 0W-20 < 0W-30 < 5W-30

Thinner oils (less high temp high shear or HTHS viscosity) don't give as much minimum oil film thickness or MOFTS between moving parts, therefore there can be more wear over time. Running thinner oil isn't about "damaging engines and resulting in dead cars on the highways" ... it's about not providing as much wear protection than thicker oils. More HTHS means more MOFT and therefore more wear protection.

If one does not require the cold start benefits of a 0W, why place the additional wear burden on the motor? One would stand to gain with a 5w30 or thicker as per the manual in that case.

 

[2021 LC200]

Recently changed from Toyota dealer 0W20 oil changes to DIY at 35k miles using 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra Platinum, while using genuine Toyota filter bought directly from the dealer. I had the dealer change it every 5k from new. Now i will do myself every 5k with 5W30.

Two things I have noticed:
Higher Oil Pressure - On the internal dash gauge, as observed or measured by others switching from 0W20 to 0W30 or 5W30 or 0W40 oil. I like this and it will also help the timing chain actuator to apply slightly more force on the timing chain
Smoother running engine - Including at start up making less noise when revving initially to 1200 to 1400 rpm and then settle to idle between 600 (AC off) to 800 rpm (AC compressor on). I assume the initial revving is the motor management wanting to heat up the engine and cats quicker for emission control. Not sure this is ideal for wear, but so it is.

Also happy to know this provides a better film to protect the engine upon start up. Afterall the 3UR-FE was delivered from the factory with 5W30 when it came on the market in 2008 (possible 5W40 or 10W40 for the Middle East) and not 0W20 as pushed for by the EPA.

 

[skrypj]

I think what he means is relative to 5W-30. There's a balance to be had and more is not always better.

In terms of HTHS weights, generally 0W-20 < 0W-30 < 5W-30

HTHS is not viscosity though. It’s related but if I had two oils exactly the same except for HTHS, I’d always go for the one with higher HTHS.

 

[skrypj]

Thinner oils (less high temp high shear or HTHS viscosity) don't give as much minimum oil film thickness or MOFTS between moving parts, therefore there can be more wear over time. Running thinner oil isn't about "damaging engines and resulting in dead cars on the highways" ... it's about not providing as much wear protection than thicker oils. More HTHS means more MOFT and therefore more wear protection.

If one does not require the cold start benefits of a 0W, why place the additional wear burden on the motor? One would stand to gain with a 5w30 or thicker as per the manual in that case.

this. If you are not cold starting in very low temperatures often then there is not a lot of reason for 0W’s.

 

[TeCKis300]

Sure, your points are understood. I was helping clarify the point someone else made which I tend to agree with.

Thinner oils (less high temp high shear or HTHS viscosity) don't give as much minimum oil film thickness or MOFTS between moving parts, therefore there can be more wear over time. Running thinner oil isn't about "damaging engines and resulting in dead cars on the highways" ... it's about not providing as much wear protection than thicker oils. More HTHS means more MOFT and therefore more wear protection.

If one does not require the cold start benefits of a 0W, why place the additional wear burden on the motor? One would stand to gain with a 5w30 or thicker as per the manual in that case.

Tell that to Toyota which specs 0W-20 for our engines here in the states. Cold start wear is real, and that doesn't just mean in very cold weather. With current manufacturing precision, it can often be the larger factor in overall engine wear.

HTHS is not viscosity though. It’s related but if I had two oils exactly the same except for HTHS, I’d always go for the one with higher HTHS.

Yes, sorta. I won't reach just for higher HTHS without consideration to efficiency and cold and winter start consideration, which is why my preference is 0W-30. The sole reason I'm even seeking anymore HTHS is due to heavy towing in summer. If I didn't do that, I don't think I would switch from what Toyota recommends.

As with most aftermarket parts and consideration , it's hard to do better, and often might just do worse than what Toyota recommends.