Thoughts on coil suspension on street/light trails FJ45LV

[woytovich]

I am starting to consider options for the suspension on my 1966 FJ45LV. It will be 98% street with 2% dirt roads. I would one day like to use it for expedition trips, but no rock crawling or heavy trails.

I was going to go with the OME leaf suspensions available for these but that is not cheap and I was thinking a linked/coil spring (coilover) suspension would make for a nicer ride.

I know there is more WORK involved in the link/coils (coilovers) than in just bolting up a leaf kit but since I will be swapping in "new" FJ40 axles: front (for disk brakes and birfs rather than ball/claw) and rear (for parking brakes), I will be doing a lot of work in either case. The frame will be free of fuel and brake lines too (as they are all getting replaced) so they will not be there to complicate the link bracket welding.

I don't need a crazy beefy, super flexy hardcore buggy style link set up. The truck will be on 33" tires, 2UZ v8 engine, H151 5 speed transmission, MAYBE 4.56 diffs with ARB locker(s) (maybe only in the rear, I HAVE those diffs already), power steering... I'd be going the link route for the ride quality not the flex.

Has anyone done this? Any thoughts/ideas/warnings etc etc?
4 link/3 link, 2x 4 link? Emulate the 80 series suspension? USE 80 series suspension parts?
Emulate the 70 series suspension?

Mark

 

[Delancy]

40 frame with 40 width axles aren't conducive for a proper link suspension and real estate lacks for adapting 80 components, too.

Stick with leafs but spend the money on a good set of Radflo shocks, which do make a huge difference in ride quality.

To pay a reputable suspension builder to link a much easier vehicle costs $4.5-5k per axle and betting the sabe reputable builder would echo the above.

 

[John Smith]

Buy FJ80, cut down the frame to proper wheel base for the LV, done. You get the stronger axles and all the hard work is already done.

 

[woytovich]

Buy FJ80, cut down the frame to proper wheel base for the LV, done. You get the stronger axles and all the hard work is already done.

I've considered that... and I even had a line on a 70 series chassis/axles/suspensions complete that would have fit pretty easily. Within the confines of my skill set and budget I am looking for the best solution. I don't want to build THIS project on an 80 chassis.

 

[woytovich]

40 frame with 40 width axles aren't conducive for a proper link suspension...

Is a mini/4Runner really that much different? They do it all the time. What part of the geometry makes it harder on a 40... and the LV is longer than an FJ40...

 

[Delancy]

How many of those minis and T4Rs do you see tooling around?

They're purpose built and on road performance and handling predictability factors at a lesser percentage, the drops are different, rear axle is centered, most french the frame for coilover that poke through tub, and are lifted much higher than stock.....plus, they're not 45LVs which aren't found in every junkyard in quantity.

Regardless, it's but like horseshoes where close enough counts...each presents it's own variables into a complex equation, from every perspective.

Mark, it can be done, but the benefit for your stated intention is negligible, since not a rock donkey, and if you're observation is OME ain't cheap, I don't see how it's possible to justify linked on coil overs.

The only specific "kit" I've ever seen was Profitts and it doesn't appear it was thought out passed the point of painting for the advertisement photo op. Pretty much, be a one off and you'd be talking $10k, easy, and have to concede to cutting/plating frame and tub.

I've been plotting and planning a 73, which is dimensionally similar to the 4X frame, which is still gonna be a major surgery with 80 width axles in custom housings (that are stout enough to handle link stresses) and I have absolutely no aversion to cutting anything to make it work.

(Ask Brian @4WheelUnderground about compatability of a mini to the 45LV. He loves this stuff.)

 

[Delancy]

Buy FJ80, cut down the frame to proper wheel base for the LV, done. You get the stronger axles and all the hard work is already done.

Don't think you'd cut much, since 80 is 112". Think LV is longer than a Pig's 106", but the better option all the way around.

Source custom back spaced wheels to account for the 8" difference in WMS spacing.

Or just get a quality set of leaf springs will top shelf shocks.....keeping the LV mostly intact.

 

[woytovich]

Ok... so so far the vote is clearly for OME...

I know there are lots of link kits on Summit and Jegs etc for cars and trucks... I was HOPING one of those could be "easily" adapted.

Cost-wise I meant that an OME kit is not a lot cheaper than the kits I see on Summit/Jegs. I am not counting the labor of course.

I don't mind adding X members/ brackets to the frame of the LV... I wouldn't want to cut the body.

Remember, not a big lift so no need for L O N G shocks...

 

[JackA]

Think LV is longer than a Pig's 106"......
Or just get a quality set of leaf springs will top shelf shocks.....keeping the LV mostly intact.

LV wheelbase is 103-4''. Good leaf springs and shocks are your best option.

 

[Delancy]

My vote would be custom leafs that would take any additional weight of the drivetrain into consideration with a degree of accuracy exceeding medium of heavy nomenclature, but even if OME leafs are opted, throw the yellow stuff in the trash and drop coin on highest quality shocks possible.

Comparing a bolt on product to a half assed, catalogue kit that is not only going to cost to buy, but cost a lot more for any fabricator that knows anything to fix, not to mention the fab time in readying the 45 frame and axles.

Full widths under a linked, 2UZ'd LV rolling 40s makes my panties moisten, but not your intentions and since you're not exactly in the Mecca of high speed, off road fabrication, anything but simple may not be even a remote possibility.

Suck to wind up with a low lifted rarity on 33s that only sees street time on a trailer.

 

[woytovich]

I agree that I don't want to just do the link/coils in a haphazard way and find out it is all wrong... but I THINK there is the possibility of building a link set up that is correct for a street truck. I don't need to buy a Summit/Jegs kit, the calculators are out there for designing a custom set-up. But really I was hoping to find someone that has done this, and has succeeded or failed...

Given custom leaf springs rather than OME, would it pay to go with longer leafs (relocating spring/shackle hangers)? Longer springs should yield a better ride?

 

[Delancy]

That's the way I understand it which makes sense, since the same "flatter is better" applies to leafs or links.

I'm on the fence about shackle reversal for an on road only, but my experience is limited to my reversed 40, where the axle seems to rotate, pulling the front down when braking.

Think there may be truth to the frame side remaining the fixed point, again, like links would be.

Going back to links....

Let's take the lack of real estate for coils/coil overs out of the discussion, and assume that fab time were half price.

I'd look at mimicking the parallel 5 link rear from post 91 Cruisers. Yes, you've got additional material in links and yes, a panhard does pull the axle PS, but it wouldn't matter for a DDer....

Would think a radius arm for the front would be easier to package under the frame rails, only needing reinforcement at frame mount, panhard and axle housing (maybe....know 80 housings are tougher).

If it were determined that were a direction you want to explore, it might be worth comparing frame dimensions light 7X that's coil sprung. They're packaged within a similar WMS-WMS, so might be doable on the 4X.

Joe K did similar on a 4X (thread here, somewhere) and would be a potential source for suspension.

 

[woytovich]

Thank you so much for giving this so much thought and time... I appreciate it. I will look for the Joe K thread...

 

[JackA]

Like Delancy is saying, if you live in the land of no quality desert racing type fab shops and don't really understand link geometry, you will be better off with quality leaf springs and good shocks. The shocks will need to be valved specifically for your vehicle to get the best ride.

I was considering going to links and coilovers myself. I can fab and design these suspensions pretty easily, but figure it would be overkill for how I use the wagon. Plus the expense and down time is just not worth it. I plan to get some custom leafs built at some point and will get custom shocks dialed in as well.

 

[Delancy]

I can fab and design these suspensions pretty easily...

Please tell us more, sir.

 

[woytovich]

Shock-wise would adjustable shocks be the most economical way to be able to dial in ride quality?
When you say "custom shocks" what do you mean?
If you could specify leaf springs and shocks to maximize ride quality on the street, with decent handling in corners where would you go? Given a budget similar to OME full kits +20% or so...

Down-time isn't an issue as the truck is under the knife all around... Yes, tell us more about designing a link set-up for an LV...

 

[Delancy]

Honestly, I've yet to feel enough difference on these heavy ass pigs afteradjustable shocks. Think it's s mental thing of turning the dial, because butt dyno has not found them to warrant the money of resi and adjuster.

Personally a fan of Radflo. Glenn's been one of the best guys I've worked with in the industry, tells it like it is, and will talk to you about your single order with the same enthusiasm that he does a trophy truck team.

Last I ordered (and only set for leafs), I sent specs from FSM, weights, compressed and extended lengths and money.

Same vehicle, ordered leafs from Alcan. Gave the general vehicle specs, ride quality description, abs desired lift.....and money, and two weeks later they showed.

 

[woytovich]

I have used Alcan for my FJ60 springs twice now... pretty happy.

 

[JackA]

I am not new to link suspensions. I built my rock buggy from scratch many years ago and have helped many others with theirs. I have raced that same buggy 4 times in King of the Hammers with a best place of 9th and worst of 21st (that's a race with 100 plus competitors). I also raced 3 seasons of Lucas Oil Regional Short Course and won my class all 3 years. You learn alot about shocks and suspension doing so.

When I say adjustable shock, I am talking about smooth bodies that require opening up to be revalved. I am not talking about Rancho 9000's or the like with a little tuning knob. The big boy stuff......ADS, King, Fox, etc. You tune the shocks with many test runs and trial settings. I have a shock guy at ADS shocks and he can work wonders.

As for springs, I would probably go Alcan or maybe Deavers. You can specify spring rate and different lengths to accomplish different goals.

 

[Delancy]

I am not new to link suspensions.....

You had me at hello....

How bored are you?

When I say adjustable shock, I am talking about smooth bodies that require opening up to be revalved.

Only saw Mark's reference to adjustable and assumed the clickers.....which I've never butt dyno'd any real benefit of on high end revalvable shocks or COs.

Been fortunate, to either not need to change or not know the difference of any orders of late.

The big boy stuff......

Don't forget Radflo....

Not the biggest, not Kings, but customer service accounts for more than a royal name and he's winning there.