Swivel Hub Leak Advice

[petegangies]

Hi all,

18months ago, I took the truck for rego, and they told me it needed the wheel bearings tightened and that I had a minor swivel hub leak. They suggested doing both sides both for both the swivel hubs and wheel bearings. I reluctantly decided to proceed, as I hadn't used this mechanic for anything else.

Fast forward, and the driver's side swivel hub has continued to leak. They confirmed they did not use OEM parts, and so when I took it back in January this year, I supplied them with a genuine inner axle seal and a swivel hub seal. When I got it back, all that was missing was the smaller inner axle seal. Within 500km it's leaking yet again. Prior to them touching this, the car had never had the swivel hubs touched, it only had 145,000kms on the odometer and we have owned it since new.

My "new" mechanic here, who has been brilliant, does not want to touch the job, given someone's already been there twice before him.

A mate of mine has said that "if the shims have been touched, then you'll need an alignment tool to work out what shims you need, otherwise you'll never get it right".

My knowledge of swivel hubs is basic, this is the first vehicle I've owned with them. I have no idea if the upper/lower hub bearings were replaced either.

Here's a couple of videos:

Prior to taking it back to them after they did the initial job:



After taking it back to them to fix again:



I'm not sure what to do now, given my trusted mechanic won't touch the job. I also don't want to take it back to the original mechanic as he's failed twice now.

I'm really after some advice on how you think I should proceed from here to get this sorted once and for all.

Many thanks,
Pete

 

[NeverFinis]

That could just be oil separating from the new grease. To me, this is a non issue.

 

[AussieHJCruza]

I've never met a full time 80 series that did not have a groove worn in the axle shaft from the seal - this groove either accelerates the inner axle seal wear or gear oil leaks out through it or something along these lines.

There's 3 ways to fix it

1) Replace the inner axle
2) drive the inner axle seal either slightly shallower or slightly deeper to run on a different section of the inner axle - difficult to do this and keep the seal square unless you have a modified seal driver.
3) Never done it myself, but a speedi sleeve should also work.

To your pictures, the knuckle ball is supposed to be slightly 'greasy' - if it's bone dry you're likely low on grease in the housing. I don't see any issues.

 

[petegangies]

I've never met a full time 80 series that did not have a groove worn in the axle shaft from the seal - this groove either accelerates the inner axle seal wear or gear oil leaks out through it or something along these lines.

There's 3 ways to fix it

1) Replace the inner axle
2) drive the inner axle seal either slightly shallower or slightly deeper to run on a different section of the inner axle - difficult to do this and keep the seal square unless you have a modified seal driver.
3) Never done it myself, but a speedi sleeve should also work.

To your pictures, the knuckle ball is supposed to be slightly 'greasy' - if it's bone dry you're likely low on grease in the housing. I don't see any issues.

this has had 2 new inner axle seals now and leaks again almost immediately. See the oil pooling on the threads? It's not just the grease on the ball, which should only be a light film, not gathering like mine. Apparently the Terrain Tamer seals have a rolling inner so even if the alignment is out a little the seal will give. Thoughts?

 

[petegangies]

That could just be oil separating from the new grease. To me, this is a non issue.

the oil is the same colour as my diff fluid...

 

[robnicko]

check that the diff breather is not clogged as that will increase the likelihood of diff oil going past the seal into the CV grease

 

[petegangies]

check that the diff breather is not clogged as that will increase the likelihood of diff oil going past the seal into the CV grease

I've seen the breather, but never taken one off before. I assume you just remove the metal breather from the hose and clean it out with brake cleaner or something and re-install?

 

[robnicko]

I've seen the breather, but never taken one off before. I assume you just remove the metal breather from the hose and clean it out with brake cleaner or something and re-install?

yep, you should be able to blow through it without much restriction

 

[Broski]

Axle oil has a distinct smell, you should be able to smell it it is indeed axle oil.
With the amount of kilometers I would not think there’s a grove in the axle yet.
80 series do not require a centering tool to rebuild the swivel balls.
If there’s a shim ( top only ) just put it back where it came from
Not sure what’s wrong with your mechanic not wanting to work on something that has been touched before?

 

[manofthewoods]

Axle oil has a distinct smell, you should be able to smell it it is indeed axle oil.
With the amount of kilometers I would not think there’s a grove in the axle yet.
80 series do not require a centering tool to rebuild the swivel balls.
If there’s a shim ( top only ) just put it back where it came from
Not sure what’s wrong with your mechanic not wanting to work on something that has been touched before?

Agree with the last sentence/question above.
A confident, experienced mechanic should troubleshoot and be able to execute repairs regardless of their origin.

 

[petegangies]

Axle oil has a distinct smell, you should be able to smell it it is indeed axle oil.
With the amount of kilometers I would not think there’s a grove in the axle yet.
80 series do not require a centering tool to rebuild the swivel balls.
If there’s a shim ( top only ) just put it back where it came from
Not sure what’s wrong with your mechanic not wanting to work on something that has been touched before?

Unfortunately, he's declined the job for whatever reason. I have found another couple of 4x4 mechanics locally that sound like they have quite a bit of experience doing these, so I'll likely take it there. I would attempt the job myself, but my space for mechanical work is limited where I live (apartment block for now).

Some good information there regarding a centering tool, shim/s and diff oil (I'll get some on my finger and have a smell —I know it well), much appreciated!

 

[petegangies]

Agree with the last sentence/question above.
A confident, experienced mechanic should troubleshoot and be able to execute repairs regardless of their origin.

My trusted mechanic is mostly retired, he's had a heart transplant and works from home for selected clients, and I'm guessing on selected jobs. He did my valve clearances for me, which others wouldn't touch, so he's not afraid of hard work, but I guess this is a dirty and fiddly job that he doesn't have the appetite to complete for me, and whether that's because someone else has failed at it twice or not, who knows. Either way, he's said no to me, despite being a very competent mechanic (he sorted my cruiser when multiple others, including myself, had failed). I wish he hadn't of said no, but here we are! There's a couple of others that based on our limited conversation, sound like they know how to complete the job competently, but both have prefaced that they'll only know if something has been damaged or there's a groove once it's been pulled down and inspected, which is fair enough.

Workshop #1 response:

Hi there,
I'd go back and see if they did the axle seal or didn’t damage it when rebuilding that side.
Without tearing it down and looking what’s going I cannot tell you . did they say there was a grove in the axle at all around the seal .?
Its going to be impossible to give you an accurate quote in regard to what may be causing the issue until we get it stripped down & check it out.
End of the day the person whom did the job is responsible still if it falls into the warranty period.

Regards
Samuel - Sales/ Workshop Manager

Workshop #2 response:
Hi Peter,
To strip 1 side down & check swivel housing alignment then repack cv joint, repack wheel bearings, replace king pin bearings and all seals is approximately $700 (Assuming we don't find anything damaged).

Cheers,
ARB Artarmon

Workshop #3 response:
Good afternoon Peter

Thank you for your online enquiry and I hope this email finds you well.

To carry out a right-hand front swivel overhaul – the estimated cost will be $1021.00.
Inclusive of this repair is:

• Wheel bearing hub
• Front inner axle seal
• Wheel bearing
• Swivel bearing/o-ring
• Spindle & associated gaskets.

Please be mindful that when we carry out the repair, we do the complete kit as to not void the 12 months parts & labour warranty, even though you have indicated you had new wheel bearings and seals done.

Many thanks.
All Four x 4 Service.

My usual mechanic:
Peter,
Sorry for the late reply. I find that 75 % of these leak even though everything is done correctly. Looking at the video have you checked that the 4 bolts are tight? It maybe just leaking from that plate or up the threads. Did they do the swivel hub bearing upper and lower?
I have done many of these but prefer to say no at this point of time.
Cheers,
W

 

[Broski]

It’s very common for the lower 4 bolts to loosen up a bit after a rebuild and some miles/ kilometers.
I would make sure they are tight and run it.
I would only go in there if you do indeed smell gear oil.
Like others have said it’s a good idea to make sure the breather is not clogged.

 

[AussieHJCruza]

Second the comments above, check the nuts for torque and run it for a while. 71 ft. lbs. from memory.

 

[petegangies]

Second the comments above, check the nuts for torque and run it for a while. 71 ft. lbs. from memory.

Thanks, yep, you're correct:

It’s very common for the lower 4 bolts to loosen up a bit after a rebuild and some miles/ kilometers.
I would make sure they are tight and run it.
I would only go in there if you do indeed smell gear oil.
Like others have said it’s a good idea to make sure the breather is not clogged.

Thank you. My mechanic said the same. Will be doing this first thing on Saturday morning!

 

[Kernal]

IME if everything is squeaky clean before reassembly ie: all threaded fasteners and threaded holes are degreased completely then tightening down the knuckle studs first, with the use of thread locker, the nuts are less likely to loosen up with normal driving.

KEY IME is that the Knuckle studs must first be tightened down very snugly to the unthreaded segment. One method is to tighten the studs down along with Blue thread locker. The approximate torque for the studs based on their size has been discussed in the past but I forget what that number is, at least good and tight after they "bottom out" (or butt up against) the unthreaded segment of the stud. At least that's my method.

Helps to first super clean the entire steering knuckle ie: in a parts washer repeatedly, then run a Cleaning-Thread Restoring Tap through all the threaded holes to remove gunk but in this situation specifically the holes for the knuckle studs, then blast with solvent, repeat, etc.,etc.

One tip./trick: once the knuckle stud holes are super clean and all gunk/grease is removed and the studs have been installed as described above (consider new OEM studs with the Star head which helps tightening them down) then go back and put a plug of FIPG/RTV into the open ends of the threaded stud holes ie from inside the knuckle cavity (after the studs are installed from the other side). That will help keep any oil (whether separating from the grease or gear oil) from leaking past the threads of the studs ie: to help you determine in the future where the leak is coming from (or is not). Let that all cure overnight before reinstalling the knuckles. Again, everything, all threads, etc, must be squeaky clean, completely degreased for this to work.

The knuckle leak could be due to the garter spring on the axle seal was knocked out of place when the axle shaft was installed, or the seal just wasn't installed correctly. Or if there was a deep wear groove on the axle shaft where the axle (inner) seal rides but that's already been mentioned, the miles seem too low to have that occur but worth checking.

FWIW IMHO this is a job you (the OP) can/should do yourself because most mechanics on the clock won't/can't spare the time to take those extra steps above. Time is money.

 

[Rifleman]

I've read some threads here on Mud where members used aftermarket inner axle seals and had gear oil leaking out soon after doing a front biff rebuild/reseal. I've also read where more then a few members say to NOT use Martin crawler seals either. I did my front Biff rebuild about 10 years ago using Factory Toyota inner axles seals, and after all that time, i still don't have any signs of gear oil leaking out. Just my 2 cents YMMV.

 

[petegangies]

IME if everything is squeaky clean before reassembly ie: all threaded fasteners and threaded holes are degreased completely then torqued properly with the use of thread locker for the knuckle studs, the nuts should not loosen up with normal driving.

KEY IME is that everything is absolutely clean and dry before assembly and the Knuckle studs must first be tightened down very snugly to the unthreaded segment. One method is to tighten the studs down along with Blue with thread locker. The approximate torque for the studs based on their size has been discussed in the past but I forget what that number is, at least good and tight after they "bottom out" (or butt up against) the unthreaded segment of the stud. At least that's my method.

Helps to first super clean the entire steering knuckle ie: in a parts washer repeatedly, then run a Cleaning-Thread Restoring Tap through all the threaded holes to remove gunk but in this situation specifically the holes for the knuckle studs, then blast with solvent, repeat, etc.,etc.

One tip./trick: once the knuckle stud holes are super clean and all gunk/grease is removed and the studs have been installed as described above (consider new OEM studs with the Star head which helps tightening them down) then go back and put a plug of FIPG/RTV into the open ends of the threaded stud holes ie from inside the knuckle cavity (after the studs are installed from the other side). That will help keep any oil (whether separating from the grease or gear oil) from leaking past the threads of the studs. Let that all cure overnight before reinstalling the knuckles. Again, everything, all threads, etc, must be squeaky clean, completely degreased for this to work.

The knuckle leak could be due to the garter spring on the axle seal was knocked out of place when the axle shaft was installed, or the seal just wasn't installed correctly. Or if there was a deep wear groove on the axle shaft where the axle (inner) seal rides but that's already been mentioned, the miles seem too low to have that occur but worth checking.

FWIW IMHO this is a job you (the OP) can/should do yourself because most mechanics on the clock won't/can't spare the time to take those extra steps above.
Time is money.

Thank you for the detailed response. I really appreciate it.

 

[petegangies]

I've read some threads here on Mud where members used aftermarket inner axle seals and had gear oil leaking out soon after doing a front biff rebuild/reseal. I've also read where more then a few members say to NOT use Martin crawler seals either. I did my front Biff rebuild about 10 years ago using Factory Toyota inner axles seals, and after all that time, i still don't have any signs of gear oil leaking out. Just my 2 cents YMMV.

The first time they did it, they used aftermarket seals (no idea what brand). When it started leaking, I insisted they use genuine toyota seals. I provided them with a hub seal and an inner axle seal. They only replaced the inner axle seal and it's still leaking. So if the inner axle seal is the issue, it's not the type of seal, but something else, whether incorrect installation or a groove etc. I wont know till it's all stripped down again I guess.

 

[Broski]

I've read some threads here on Mud where members used aftermarket inner axle seals and had gear oil leaking out soon after doing a front biff rebuild/reseal. I've also read where more then a few members say to NOT use Martin crawler seals either. I did my front Biff rebuild about 10 years ago using Factory Toyota inner axles seals, and after all that time, i still don't have any signs of gear oil leaking out. Just my 2 cents YMMV.

^^^ This 100%

FWIW IMHO this is a job you (the OP) can/should do yourself because most mechanics on the clock won't/can't spare the time to take those extra steps above.
Time is money.

^^^ And this
The only thing I would say is if it’s a trail rig I don’t recommend the thread locker.
If there’s an issue on the trail you don’t want to deal with that.