AltFuel Supplemental Hydrogen Generator

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I don't think It was ever tested properly... and is worth reexamination with new technology available today. but that's just my opinion...

How could you know for sure that it is truly snake oil or if it was just shelfed to promote fossil fuel use????:confused: I find nothing disproving hho online just how the process works???and no solid facts about it's volatility except when applied to welding/cutting where it is an use to cut and weld unconventional materials like plastic or glass.

Here is a link to another forum I sometimes frequent... (and I posted several responses in the following thread)


Denny Klein - Fuel from Water - Is this a scam? - JREF Forum

Some of the scientific knowledge the other members have there is beyond mine- but that just means they are able to analyze the claims better than you or me.

I believe that after you read the above link- you will see the claims for what they are= fraudulent. Best wishes, Luke
 
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i'll check it out not so concerned about opinions as facts. thanks but I am optimistic and don't buy the snake oil argument. i prefer to disprove things myself. that website is another forum for eggheadedness meh....


I have seen a brick welded to a metal rod with this gas know buy those who use it as HHO in glass polishing, plastic polishing etc...if you search HHO welding or cutting you find a better source of education i think...then speculation. why would industry use it if it didn't work and cut/weld these materials as the companies that sell them and the industry that use them claim. also it is a jewelery standard gas because it leaves no residue on gold etc...
 
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i'll check it out not so concerned about opinions as facts. thanks but I am optimistic and don't buy the snake oil argument. i prefer to disprove things myself. that website is another forum for eggheadedness meh....


I have seen a brick welded to a metal rod with this gas know buy those who use it as HHO in glass polishing, plastic polishing etc...if you search HHO welding or cutting you find a better source of education i think...then speculation. why would industry use it if it didn't work and cut/weld these materials as the companies that sell them and the industry that use them claim. also it is a jewelery standard gas because it leaves no residue on gold etc...

So what I hear you saying is that even though someone has taken the time to point you in the direction of some answers to your questions, you're going to dismiss them as "eggheaded". Do I have that right?
 
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No matter what the snake oil salesman says, the laws of Physics haven't been suspended.;)

Ok, I don't know anything about physics past what I learned in grade 10 (grade 11 was drinking), but I just want to clear some basic things up that I barely remember.

1. Isn't hydrogen supposed to be the element with the most energy or something? Doesn't that mean that hydrogen should have more energy than other combinations of elements... ie fossil fuels? Would that not give water (2 hydrogen atoms) a really high energy density?

2. Energy from water isn't free energy like a perpetual motion machine. Water is just like oil... it's a thing that holds energy. Our current technology doesn't get more energy out of water than it puts in, but if it DID, you still need fuel (water)... I don't see how that breaks the laws of physics. To me that sounds like saying "running a car on petroleum breaks the laws of physics... you can just keep pumping it into the car and getting free energy out". It's likely I'm missing something here...

3. Maybe people are getting confused with cold fusion... which I'm pretty sure it is totally different to 'burning water' in a car engine or fuel cell if you could.

4. Just because it hasn't been utilized and commercialized doesn't mean it doesn't work...?

Like I said, I don't know anything, but these are questions that come to my mind...
 
Ok, I don't know anything about physics past what I learned in grade 10 (grade 11 was drinking), but I just want to clear some basic things up that I barely remember.

1. Isn't hydrogen supposed to be the element with the most energy or something? Doesn't that mean that hydrogen should have more energy than other combinations of elements... ie fossil fuels? Would that not give water (2 hydrogen atoms) a really high energy density?

Yes (sort of)- the difficulty is that in order to get the energy "out of" water, you must invest an awful lot breaking the Hydrogen bonds. Water, with 2 H bonds, is exceptionally stable, and resists "cracking" [electolysis].

2. Energy from water isn't free energy like a perpetual motion machine. Water is just like oil... it's a thing that holds energy. Our current technology doesn't get more energy out of water than it puts in, but if it DID, you still need fuel (water)... I don't see how that breaks the laws of physics. To me that sounds like saying "running a car on petroleum breaks the laws of physics... you can just keep pumping it into the car and getting free energy out". It's likely I'm missing something here...

The Laws of Physics [more specifically Thermodynamics] state that in a closed system, you cannot get more energy out than you put in. Adding anything, whether in the form of water or gasoline is an energy input. In return, you get energy output, ie. motion, heat, combustion by-products, friction, etc. which if we were able to measure them all, would total exactly the amount of energy put into the system. What several people have been trying to say is that the energy gained by the introduction of H to the combustion process is more than offset by the energy necessary to maintain the electrolysis process.

3. Maybe people are getting confused with cold fusion... which I'm pretty sure it is totally different to 'burning water' in a car engine or fuel cell if you could.

you may be right on this one. Electrolyzing water is not "cold fusion".

4. Just because it hasn't been utilized and commercialized doesn't mean it doesn't work...?

True. Everyday there are new products brought to market, and everyday inventors think up new devices, some of which will be commercially viable. But, the marketplace is a wonderfully adaptable thing. New ideas [that work] are embraced quickly (think cellphones). Bad ideas never really catch on, and their inventors are left to talk about conspiracy theories.

Like I said, I don't know anything, but these are questions that come to my mind...

...
 
I think there are plenty of examples of good ideas that were quashed because they were less profitable than the lesser. Batamax is the biggest one that comes to mind... it's such a superior format to VHS that it's still used for high definition DVD mastering (I worked in this once). The marketplace is every man for himself, and inventors aren't the ones who pull the strings, the ones with the investments are.

Also, by the above logic wouldn't hybrid cars be less efficient? I mean, it wastes a fair bit of energy to convert it into battery power and back to mechanical. So how can you gain energy that way? It's energy juggling really...

It makes sense to me that this technology might work...
Spending 1.5 energy units to make 1 energy unity worth of hydrogen... ok so you've lost some energy.
Now let's say that your cylinder per rev uses 200 energy units worth of diesel, but is inefficient and only gives you 100 energy units worth of mechanical energy.
So if the addition of 1 energy unit of hydrogen can increase the efficiency of the reaction in the cylinder by 20%, then you end up with 20 extra energy units of mechanical energy from only 1.5 energy units put into the electrolysis. If you were just trying to burn the hydrogen straight up you'd be wasting energy... but since the diesel reaction is initially inefficient and the hydrogen improves it...

Isn't that how it's supposed to work? I dunno sounds sensible to me. You're not getting more energy out than you're putting in... you were always putting in that amount of energy, but you just weren't getting it out before.
 
this is how it is supposed to work u put out a few amps and get back a mileage increase that out weighs the mechanical losses on the alternator when combined with the fuel burn in progress.......and it uses up water how much depends on the reaction and design. there is also some heat generated...



this is not creating energy this is not possible as you cannot destroy energy either. you are just breaking the bonds of the water molecule and burning the gas like it was any other gas additive.

Japan is now heating some homes with electrolysis/HHO generation so it must be better than hydro for heating after the energy expended separating it. then you burn it and get the energy that is released from the water...
 
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Modifying the burn pattern of a fuel is not that hard to do, just hard to to do in a benifical way.
I have pondered the second fuel question for some time now with diesel engines. I dont think anyone would suggest a perpetual motion machine effect for the benefits of hydrogen injection. That is unless you are my brother (hes obsessed with perpetual motion machines). He built a paddle wheel for his canoe...weird, but I still love him.
The only benefit I can see would be to somehow increase the efficiency of the primary fuel, diesel or whatever. This could be more than simply burning all of the fuel, but rather increasing the burn rate of the fuel.
If the hydrogen could be used to speed up the burn pattern of the diesel that is injected, then more of the energy from the fuel could be realized by the piston before it accelerates past the speed of the combustion. This would allow the same amount of fuel to create greater cylinder pressure, and more importantly higher pressures earlier in the piston stroke.
Injection timing would surely have to be adjusted, as in retarded. I have thought alot about this and propane injection. For me it has always come down to two questions, and how to meter the fuel correctly without causing detonation.

What the auto ignition point?
What is the minimum air:fuel ratio it needed to burn?

Dougal you really need to speak up on this one, cus I just know your there.
G

Now please take into account that I am crazy tired, and this made perfect sense to me when I wrote it.
 
I have this system and it works.

I just installed the magdrive 11a cell into my 82 fj60. Big improvement in overall engine smoothness and I have gotten 30 % better mileage. The hho that is injected is designed to completely burn the gas, diesel, propane, e85, etc. Gasoline only burns about 15-30% complete by itself. with hho it goes up to 98% complete burn. the hho acts like 130 octane and completes the burn in the gasoline, in return the engine has more power with less right foot input. As for pulling 10 amps, you can control this with the concentration of electrolyte in the cell, the less catalyst i.e. vinegar vs. distilled water the less draw of amps. the higher the amp draw the more hho is being produced. There are also systems that use pulse width modulators for more efficiency by sending square wave pulses to the cell instead of continuous DC current.
By the way, the magdrive system has a moneyback guarantee, but you'd be throwing money away everytime you fill up the tank it you didn't use it. I'm saving about $25 every fill up at 30% increase in miles per tank of petral. the kit costs $500 delivered. I should recoup the costs within six months, then reap the savings at the pump and much cleaner emissions and the engine runs cleaner without the excess carbon build-up.
 
there a lots of pics/vids on u tube of the magdrive model......i figure 1 hour if you have all the parts and a good place to mount it..

i am looking into a distributorship in Canada if anyone is interested in one of these units...all sizes of engine even a big rigs...from 499.00(basic kit)up to 6995.00(big rig size cell stainless w/ warranty) will not void your new car warranty(Canada) and is street legal.
 
which model did you get and how hard was the install? oh and pics would be great too!
Just got back from Stagecoach, CO got 15.4 mpg with up and down hills above 7k ft. I was getting 10-11 mpg before and it ran like crap. Now with hho it runs great on the road and the gas gauge isn't on the downward death spiral quite so much. I'm in the middle of desmogging so I've got some egr leaks for now, soon to change.
The first time I installed the 11a single cell, it took a bit, mainly because I had to figure out where the optimal mounting locations would be. Jim at Magdrive recommends between the grill and radiator for most vehicles. the 82 fj60 has a condenser in the way so I bent the straight brackets on the brick so that I could mount it in the passenger side of the engine next to the wheel well. It's worked so far, but I will fab a quick release bracket out of aluminum so I can take it out easily for cleaning once a month or two. I'm also working with some new quick release tubing for the hho output hose so cleaning or dissassembling the system for working on the engine easier to reinstall. I will also clean up the wiring and make it to where it disconnects as well.
If you can install a car stereo, amp and speakers etc, and have some what of an idea of how an engine works, then you will have no problem.

I'll have some pics just as soon as I can borrow a digi camera.
 
WAVE 3 TV Louisville, KY | Car Powered By Water A Reality

The LT Series - CHEC HFI Hydrogen Fuel Injection system - The LT Series Hydrogen Fuel Injection System provides the same benefits as the HT version:Increased MPG, substantial decrease in emissions, extended oil drains, reduced maintenance, increased

more hho links uncovering the truth about the fact you can produce hho gas from water and supplement your fuel...

oxy-hydrogen is the perfect fuel and not fiction... it is not just hydrogen produced.... oxygen is also mixed with the hydrogen at the molecular level....this was suppressed(by gov't oil companies) and we were taught that it was impossible and dangerous to use as fuel... Now it is in use and I can buy one!!!!with a warranty and not void my warranty they also guarantee a 10% mileage increase!!!...

HHO supplement should be made mandatory with todays fuel problems IMO....
 
check out the site Hydrogen Garage LLC Awsome site for hho production and alternative energy. They have a link to blogtalk radio that has some great indepth interviews with several independant experts in various fields of alternative energy production. Some of the interviews talk about such super mpg saving techniques as the pogue carberator that was used in sherman tanks in ww2 that got 100 mpg. Also the GEET plasma system is pretty interesting as it recycles the exhaust to super heat the fuel and turns it into plasma for fuel.
There are lots of garage tinkerers out there with the solutions to the oil problem.

May 10, 2008 local fuel prices: Diesel $4.72, 85 octane $3.98 Edwards, CO
 

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