AltFuel Supplemental Hydrogen Generator

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Here's the deal, if some guy invented a way for you to get 28% greater fuel efficiency for a one time fee (plus the cost of distilled water) it would be big news right now and available at every Napa & Kragens in the US.

Snake oil, pure and simple. And remember, the best lies are the ones that most closely resemble the truth... so just cause a gimmick sounds well researched or is even theoretically plausible does not mean it will work.
 
Using solar power to split the water in to Hydrogen and Oxygen for later combustion would work, however using an alternator to power the splitting, thats powered by the burning of the fuel it split, would not.

I think the problems with these debates is that people think they know more about physics than they actually do - any 10th grade physics student could see that this is a silly idea!

Sean
 
Ok,

I was not aware that there was a "clutch" in the alternator that "suddenly" recognized amp draw and super engaged the alt? Come on guys. I turn on my lights and my IPFs and my RPMs stay the same. Now on modern cars if I turn on the A/C that is different. As far as losing the smog pump swap... It would be an acceptable swap
and it seems plenty of TLCrs are doing it here.... But lets forget all that and just say somehow we find the 10amps to drive the process.

Well first of all the link I sent was talking about a plasmatron that actually used a portion of the hyrdocarbon fuel to generate hydrogen from the exhaust. That technology is licensed from MIT by ArvinMeritor. It was new to me and I am looking at the fuel burn curves. As you can see from my list of cruisers that this topic very important to me. Hey, I pay $1.60 a gallon for propane to run my rigs and I am always looking for a way to pay less and get more power. As far as the vendors products that are being discussed and after looking at the parts list... I am very skeptical.
I will call tomorrow and talk to each and get detailed installation instructions. If they will not provide a PDF that describes this process for both fuel injected and normally aspirated engines than it obviously is a hoax. But, I am guessing it already is otherwise if they had a real product than they would have application guidelines. That is what I have for every LPG and CNG application I have installed. HP ratings, CFM flow rates, Dual Curve timing charts....

Having said that I just wanted to consider that there may be merit.
 
[Ok, I was not aware that there was a "clutch" in the alternator that "suddenly" recognized amp draw and super engaged the alt? Come on guys. I turn on my lights and my IPFs and my RPMs stay the same. ]


Its not a clutch friend, its the magnetic resistance between the fields in the alternator. Take the belt of your alternator, spin it, almost no resistance, the field is of. But nevertheless it takes up to 2 HP under load, and yes this DOES change depending on amps drawn, simple physics... I admit I have not tried turning the lights on and of with a 2F driving the alternator, I do not have a 2F, but you can se the difference clearly in a small engine, like a 1.6L corolla...
I have a 220V 800A transportable generator, when I hook that up to my anglegr4inder it almost stalls when I switch the grinder on, and no "clutch" there :)
 
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Now thats fun!

Angular Physics... Nice. Leave it to Denmark! Btw, I also have two patents on wind generators pending :)

So for fun... Lets just say you can find the energy: regenerative brakes, drag wind generators, solar. Whatever... that is easy.

How about the fuel burn and mix? Timing curve?

For me. I have the amps. And I already have all the lean fuel mixtures. What I do not have is the compression ratio, and the weight.

Any ideas?
 
CruzerCrazy said:
Now thats fun!

Angular Physics... Nice. Leave it to Denmark!
Click to expand...

Hey! we found America long before that Italian dude! :flipoff2:

I'm just gonna fix 4 of those kits to my car, drop the gas completely and sell the hydrogen... For the money I earn Im gonna buy more kits, and before you know IM THE RICHEST MAN ALIVE!!!! MUAHAHAHAAA!
 
Ok,

For the record I am half Danish and half Scottish! I am SAXON! Anyone that can make Scotch with peat?!@ Should have the genes to fuel the planet!@

Its not about kits or profits. Its about change. Petrol is not the bomb. I can climb mountains on propane, bio-d, e-85, and farts :)

What matters? Our children. I have three boys. I will change for my children.

cheers!
 
I, for one, was in no way defending our dependence on fossil fuels. We, as a race, need to explore all possibilities for fueling our energy needs. I was merely pointing out the Physical impossibility of the claims made by the Hydrogen Generator people.

I don't have patents pending on wind generators or anything like that- but I am several credits shy of a M.S. in Physics.

It really doesn't matter what mechanical system you want to debate, they all seem to adhere to the same laws of Thermodynamics.

EDIT: Oh, and if you're going to fake a TLCA member number, at least make it have 5 digits, not 6. :flipoff2:
 
RockDoc said:
link? I am EXTREMELY skeptical. Unless the hydrogen helps the gasoline burn better, I fail to see how you can get more out than you put in. I think there was a myth busters on this.
Click to expand...

I saw the myth busters on that one and that was only hydrogen and no gas. The thing couldn't keep up.

Mixing with gas is possible.


There is a guy at my work doing it. He hasn't said much on it like it works.
 
LukeZero said:
I, for one, was in no way defending our dependence on fossil fuels. We, as a race, need to explore all possibilities for fueling our energy needs. I was merely pointing out the Physical impossibility of the claims made by the Hydrogen Generator people.
Click to expand...

X2 on that!

I have a HJ60 which, when its done, will run on veggieoil!

As for wind generators, here in Denmark 20% of our power comes from wind generators, more than any other country!
 
LukeZero

LukeZero,


Why would you take that so personal? Please understand that I just want things better for my kids..? And, I picked the most reliable systems on the planet to support my research. My rigs will support my research.

What is your beef?

jj
 
No beef. I just get frustrated by the general lack of understanding of basic scientific principles. I probably have too short of a fuse sometimes. Sorry.

I guess I think most people are pretty dim. Probably I shouldn't paint you with that brush.

EDIT: And I guess I was responding to your petrol is not the bomb statement.
 
It seems several issues got tossed up and that is clouding the picture.

This is not about the merits of hydrogen - it is about a device and what it purports to do.

The energy needed for the hydrolysis of water uses more than the energy it creates (through the use of the hydrogen). As noted previously, if this were not the case you could build a perpetual motion machine (or we would all be driving cars that run on water*). Now, if the alternator was always putting out wasted amps and those were used, that may be a different subject. But an alternator consumes more power as it creates electricity (and the generator example was spot on to illustrate that). Moreover, your alternator is not 100% efficient so you are losing again there as well.

Now, there may be some merit to adding hydrogen to a petrol powered car - I haven't the foggiest if it would help or not. If it helps and you could get hydrogen to add, great. My only point, and I believe the point of several others, is that getting that hydrogen through hydrolysis powered by the vehicle itself will not add efficiency.

By the way, Honda will be selling a limited number of Hydrogen fueled cars in California I believe as soon as next year. The reason is emissions, not fuel efficiency. Of course, if the fuel is cheap and clean efficiency doesn't matter all that much.

*I know, I know, an inventor built such a car in the 50's and the oil companies, GM, Ford, Eisenhower had him killed and shelved the technology :rolleyes:
 
Ok,

So in theory, if I put a switch on my alternator. Drive down the highway @ 60mph/2400 rpm and turn the switch off and run completely off my battery for 20 minutes than I will affect a 15-20% savings in fuel?

Conversely, If I leave the switch on and introduce a 10 amp load I will lose 15-20%? Shouldn't there be a hp/amp chart somewhere?

And why don't the manufactures say 15/18/12mph (city,highway,nightime) :)

Sorry if I being obtuse. Anybody look at the plasmatron?

jj
 
Conversely, If I leave the switch on and introduce a 10 amp load I will lose 15-20%? Shouldn't there be a hp/amp chart somewhere?

Sorry but you are confusing things, there is a hp/amp connection, its called watt. 10A x 12V = 120W = 0,16hp

And why don't the manufactures say 15/18/12mph (city,highway,nightime) :)

Partly because the electrical powerdrain from running light at night is equalled out by the battery during daytime driving, partly because the amps drawn as you can see from above calculation are miniscule compaired to the output of the engine at normal working revs. The drop in revs when you turn the lights on at idle is because the engine produces almost no power at idle.


Sorry if I being obtuse. Anybody look at the plasmatron?

I did look at the plasmatron, and the rest of the info on that page, and it seemed very confused, facts mingled with myth.

Sorry, but I do not see how any of it would work...
 
I've done some reading on this, and hydrogen injection in diesels, and it does make sense. How our internal combustion engine works is not very efficient. There is a of energy spewed out the tail pipe in the form of gasoline. Introducing the hydrogen into the system causes the fuel to combust more, and as said before, can have a more lean mixture. remember, liquid gasoline does not combust, its the vapors that combust.
 
At risk of continuing the sidetrack, I'll say this. It takes a little power to turn an alternator which is producing no electricity. It takes a lot of power to turn an alternator that is producing a lot of electricity. Those 55W headlights require 55W of engine power to run. There's no free electricity in a car uness you happen to have a hybrid with brake regeneration.

Back to the topic of Hydrogen. The amount produced is very small. By itself it would have about as much effect as a dog farting in the back of a pickup and increasing the power/mileage of the vehicle following. Where the snake oil pitch gets people is the claim that somehow a tiny bit of magical hydrogen can cause a change in the energy of gasoline whereby increasing its efficiency. I don't believe it but it is not beyond the realm of possibility. It simply needs a bit of real data to back it up. I suspect there will be some development in the future relating to blended fuels.

As far as helping the next generation out. We'd do well to quit wasting their inheritance.
 
it does work!

We discussed this at length with friends,and one day a client came in over heard us and said that you would save up to 20% fuel.The only problem is you would lose 20% hp.This was the pantonne system:rolleyes:
The only saver is efficiency ,you dont get nothing for nothing.It takes energy to do stuff so if you are doing it on board you are losing or if you are luky breaking even.
 
I confused

why do we always try to make little engines go faster and big ones use less fuel:confused:, when those of you who are looking for hp could swap with those looking for economy and ecological peace of mind?!!:D
 
I wouldn't be so quick to write EVERYTHING off. The law of conservation of energy most definitely applies to the situation. IF the auto cycle was 100% thermodynamically efficient, than you could throw any kind of artificial aspiration out the window as well as hydrogen generation. The problem is that the Otto cycle, as it stands, is limited by thermodynamic principles. As the compression ratio of an Otto cycle engines goes up, the thermodynamic efficiency also goes up. This is also true with the diesel cycle. We all know that not all the fuel is burnt in the Otto cycle and with advancements in fuel injection, this problem has become much better, but it still exists.

If the hydrogen generator takes 10% of the engine's power to split water into H2 and O but allows for 20% more fuel to be burnt, you have won.

Saying this, I highly doubt that this system is advanced enough to provide 20-28% fuel economy increases. However, There are several people who are doing Hydrogen injection with diesels with incredible results. The difference: They are packing a welding bottle full of H2 in the truck with them much like a Nitrous bottle. In the future, I don't doubt this system will become a reality and it will function just like a super charger or a turbo charger: It will take power from the engine to increase the thermodynamic efficiency.

My two cents…
 
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