Stuck in snow, winchless recovery

[80t0ylc]

.........Yesterday, I had to go out with my LC to recover a friend's Jeep, as he dove on to ice and then almost went over a 200ft drop with all of his family. .......... - I chained up in mud, before we hit the ice and was very glad I did so. That said, most would wait to put the chains on until they started to slip. This is what my friend did and it almost cost them their lives if he had continued to slide. They were very lucky...........

Man, it is always a judgement call. When I recommend holding your chains in reserve, I'm talking about normal wheeling. If you're on an icy road with a 200' dropoff and you have chains, you would be very foolish to not chain up before you went anywhere near said dropoff. I'm sure there are lot's of examples where putting on chains ahead of time kept rigs out of trouble. For most snow running, chaining up ahead of time makes sense and is the way to roll. If you're out goofing off, it makes sense to keep something up your sleeve to help you stay mobile. And it was advice I got from experienced off roaders when I was a rookie.

.........4. Both vehicles had chains only on the back end, so the front ends tended to slide around coming down off the mountain. With the 100, I do not have room for chains on the front, but given how solid the back was, it would have been nice. That brings up an important point: you tend to have more traction going up than coming down. Keep this in mind when wheeling as the drive down tends to be more dangerous than the drive up.............

One thing you need to remember about chaining up only one axle on a 4 x 4 rig in the slick stuff. It is going to perform a lot like a 2WD with power to the axle you chained up. If you only have 1 set for a 4 x 4, put the chains on the front axle for the best traction (slow going) and going uphill. Put them on the rear axle for higher speeds, such as chains required on highways in mountain passes or for going down hill off road.

Warning: If you try to go down a steep slippery hill with chains only on the front axle, your rear end will try to come around on you and cause you to lose control. Also, if you try to climb a steep slippery hill with chains only on the rear axle, you may not have steering control when you need it.

 

[patrickfinley]

Hey Tom, do the 80 series have issues with chains on the front tires? The 100 series have the Upper Control Arm dangerously close to the front tires and anything thicker than a sub "S" class chain on 275's can potentially rub against the UCA and cause damage. Forget about chains all together up front if you are 285 or more without spacers.

 

[LCHardriver_02]

Tom,

Like Patrick, I would love to know whether or not the 80 can run chains in the front without issues, as he stated above, the 100 runs into clearance issues. That is why I did not have them all around.

As for goofing off, I agree wholeheartedly and have done so to give my girls a thrill, but of course, this was in a relatively flat area with about 3 feet of snow depth, so we were just having a blast and I am in no way against that!

I did not say so earlier, but I was in the 80 as it also has snow rated tires (Cooper STs, with added siping). The 100 has Michelins LTX AS tires that I would not trust in this circumstance, plus the chains did not fit on the 275-65R18s. Those have got to go! I like having the ability in both trucks to go pretty much anywhere I want to, given that I do not rock climb. That said, I had the Coopers on the 100 first and in mud and snow and it ate it up with the ATRAC. I have yet to put chains on that truck.

Pat - I may order those chains. Thanks. Before I do, I am thinking of jacking up the 100 and trying on the set I have from Les Swab and see if they hit UCAs. If they do, I will leave them with the 80 and maybe buy another set for the front, if there are no issues, and get two of the slim lines for the 100.

 

[LCHardriver_02]

Warning: If you try to go down a steep slippery hill with chains only on the front axle, your rear end will try to come around on you and cause you to lose control. Also, if you try to climb a steep slippery hill with chains only on the rear axle, you may not have steering control when you need it.

Great stuff here! Another thing that we noticed coming down with chains only on the back was that any bump you hit made the front want to swing towards the ledge, which was scary as @##$! By crawling along, we minimized this affect, and knowing it will happen keeps you from freaking out too much, but it stills can be very scary when it happens. Giving it a small (really small) acceleration, allowed the front tires to regain grip and typically this happened when we would hit a bump, so just be aware.

Jonathan

 

[LCHardriver_02]

Guys, I did a little searching and found this link in the 80 section. I found several things in it very interesting, including CruiserDan's statements regarding chaining up only the rear when going down a steep hill, which was exactly what I was doing.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/203322-chains-front-axle.html

 

[80t0ylc]

Guys, I did a little searching and found this link in the 80 section. I found several things in it very interesting, including CruiserDan's statements regarding chaining up only the rear when going down a steep hill, which was exactly what I was doing.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/203322-chains-front-axle.html

Good link and I think reading through this thread should be advantageous for those that want to play in the snow with their rigs. My Dad worked for the BLM as a civil engineer. He'd take me with him on field trips in all kinds of cool rigs back in the '60s and '70s. Govt rigs of all kinds - CJs, Jeep pickups, M37 Weapons carriers, Sno-cats, 4 x 4 pickups from all manufacturers, some were bare bones and others had all the options. Full-time, part time, Quadra-trac. This was here in Oregon and N. Calif. He and the guys he worked with taught me a lot about off roading techniques when I was growing up. It was a way of life for them and now it's just entertainment to us. Hopefully us old farts can pass a little knowledge on to help keep the newer guys out of trouble, if that's possible. Hell, it didn't work for me - somethings ya just gotta learn the hard way.

 

[VidereStudios]

I have a 100 series and am wanting to put 255/85R16's on it...nice and narrow tire, which would be helpful with the clearance issue with chains and the UCA's. Of course, though, now it is a much taller tire. A 1.5" lift in the front and a 2.5" lift in the back should help. I would like to run chains both on the front and rear to avoid the issues mentioned above.

 

[rusty_tlc]

Saying that you should not put on your chains until you are stuck is just silly.

So is saying that you can not put them on after you are stuck.

You do not need to drive over chains to install them.




To answer your original question... you could have put your chains on to get unstuck. Once you know what you are doing it takes only a few minutes.

For parking lot stucks on ice like you describe, a bag of mixed sand and small gravel works wonders. Just sprinkle some under and ahead of the tires and drive right out. Nothing that needs to be picked up or cleaned up either.
Kitty litter is a poor choice... it crushes on hard ice and is less effective as it does... it get soft and soggy if it is wet and is worthless if it does.

Rugs and mats and the like can be more effective in deeper snow. IF you can get them into place and IF it is not too deep anyway.


Mark...

I agree, that's like saying you shouldn't engage 4WD or your locker until you are stuck.

I keep a #3 coffee can of Sno-Melt or the like in my wife's Mercury, a V8 with rear wheel drive can get stuck in a parking lot pretty easy. Sidewalk salt get's you moving again, much easier than chains, clean and simple for to use.

 

[angerhater]

i had considered getting a few pieces of the metal lath they use for stucco. its thin/cheap/and i plan to keep it under the carpet in the bacck...i dont know how well they would hold up but if they get me unstuck......any opinions?.....

 

[rusty_tlc]

i had considered getting a few pieces of the metal lath they use for stucco. its thin/cheap/and i plan to keep it under the carpet in the bacck...i dont know how well they would hold up but if they get me unstuck......any opinions?.....

That stuff is razor sharp, I think you would ruin your tires.

 

[ngrich99]

Air is cheap, let a bunch out, amazing how tire pressure effects contact patch and changes traction. Just got back from a xmas tree cutting journey. Unfortunately it was a on a one track road so there was lots of stuck trucks and lots of pulling. I was really impressed by the old man in the Dodge raider running 10PSI in his BFG mud terrains. He actually made a new path for himself in the powder on the shoulder. I ran 17psi in my snow tires and had no problems. A snatch strap and a few shackles helped yank several trucks out, even a wrangler snatch strapped a F250.

 

[Jetboy]

Air is cheap, let a bunch out, amazing how tire pressure effects contact patch and changes traction. Just got back from a xmas tree cutting journey. Unfortunately it was a on a one track road so there was lots of stuck trucks and lots of pulling. I was really impressed by the old man in the Dodge raider running 10PSI in his BFG mud terrains. He actually made a new path for himself in the powder on the shoulder. I ran 17psi in my snow tires and had no problems. A snatch strap and a few shackles helped yank several trucks out, even a wrangler snatch strapped a F250.

x2

Low air pressure is your best option in snow. You really can't believe the difference until you try it. Now, you'd better make sure you have a compressor and you really want the ability to re-seat a bead if you need to.

There's a reason you don't see chains on many of the true arctic trucks. Big tires with low pressure are the next best thing to tracks. Chains don't like to stay on big tires with 5psi in them.

If you want a cheap traction aid, you could consider finding an old snwomobile track and cutting it so you can lay it out and drive on it.

However, I'd just buy a winch. For a stock rig, you would be just fine with a HF 6klb winch in a hitch mount. They are smaller and lighter. You could even put synthetic line to drop the weight even more. I'd guess you'd be out the door for $250 plus another $50 for a good set of 2 gauge jumper cables to reach it. It's going to be hard to beat for that price.

 

[patrickfinley]

So I just picked up a Hi-Lift jack. I'll be taking this with me from now on when heading into snow country. If I was alone this could have easily solved my predicament.

Question, do you guys ditch the stock jack when carrying the Hi-lift? I wouldn't mind that extra space to stuff some recovery gear, etc. I just didn't know if there where times when it's good to have both jacks in aiding in a recovery?

 

[Jetboy]

So I just picked up a Hi-Lift jack. I'll be taking this with me from now on when heading into snow country. If I was alone this could have easily solved my predicament.

Question, do you guys ditch the stock jack when carrying the Hi-lift? I wouldn't mind that extra space to stuff some recovery gear, etc. I just didn't know if there where times when it's good to have both jacks in aiding in a recovery?

IMO keep both jacks. There are plenty of times where a small bottle jack can be super handy... like changing a tire.

 

[patrickfinley]

Yes, I'm also discovering that with a stock rig, running boards and plastic bumpers I can easily do some damage with a hi-lift.

Ha, I think that $80 purchase may have cost me a few grand in bumpers, sliders, lifts, etc. No sense having that jack if I can't use it!

 

[rusty_tlc]

So I just picked up a Hi-Lift jack. I'll be taking this with me from now on when heading into snow country. If I was alone this could have easily solved my predicament.

Question, do you guys ditch the stock jack when carrying the Hi-lift? I wouldn't mind that extra space to stuff some recovery gear, etc. I just didn't know if there where times when it's good to have both jacks in aiding in a recovery?

I still carry the stock jack in my FJ40, fully extended it won't even hit the axle. But it still comes in very useful for a variety of things.

Here is a curiosity for everyone, there is almost no difference between the jack in my 1975,1984, and 1998 Land Cruisers. Even the jack crank is the same.

 

[LCHardriver_02]

Dan - I guess, if it works, why change it? Right?

Patrick - I started watching Bill Burke's "Getting Unstuck" last night and realized how little I knew about the gear I had purchased. Plus, he uses several items I would not have thought about, like strips of carpet to place under the tires, when in loose surroundings. If you have not seen it, I would highly recommend it, especially with the purchase of the HighLift.
Bill Burke

 

[Southeast Overland]

... For a stock rig, you would be just fine with a HF 6klb winch in a hitch mount. ...

I beg to differ. A 6,000 lb winch for a 60/80/100/200/FJ, even a 40 is undersized. Yes, it could easily get you unstuck if you just need a little tug but if your winch line is almost fully on the spool your 6,000 lb winch will only be putting out maybe 3,500 lb max. You'll be kicking yourself when you burn out your little winch.

Question, do you guys ditch the stock jack when carrying the Hi-lift? I wouldn't mind that extra space to stuff some recovery gear, etc. I just didn't know if there where times when it's good to have both jacks in aiding in a recovery?

I carry both a bottle jack and a 48" Hi-Lift. If I can I always use the bottle jack sitting on top of a Hi-Lift Off Road Base for extra stability. A properly sized bottle jack is safer than using a Hi-Lift, especially when many people who have a Hi-Lift don't know how to properly use it. If I can't use the bottle jack then I use the Hi-Lift.

I've even used both before. I lost the lower control arm lower nut on my FJC. I had to use the Hi-Lift to jack up the passenger (missing nut) side of my FJC then use the bottle jack to in combination to reposition the control arm/axle so I could put the bolt back in.

 

[Jetboy]

I beg to differ. A 6,000 lb winch for a 60/80/100/200/FJ, even a 40 is undersized. Yes, it could easily get you unstuck if you just need a little tug but if your winch line is almost fully on the spool your 6,000 lb winch will only be putting out maybe 3,500 lb max. You'll be kicking yourself when you burn out your little winch.

I guess I was assuming with a snatch block. I have on in my kit, and just assumed as std equipment if you have a winch. Then you'd have at least 7klbs of pulling force. For a stock 100 series, I'd think that would be enough for pretty much all parking lot expeditions. Hardcore offroading? Not so much.

FWIW, I have an 8274 on my fj40 and a 8klb HF cheapo on a multimount for my 4runner with a front and rear receiver options. For the price, the HF is a pretty decent winch. It's not as fast or strong as the Warn, but it's 1/5 the cost. If they had the same 6klb version they have now, I probably would have bought it simply to save weight and make it easier to handle. The 8klb plus steel cable is kind of a PITA to lug around.

 

[Southeast Overland]

I guess I was assuming with a snatch block. I have on in my kit, and just assumed as std equipment if you have a winch. Then you'd have at least 7klbs of pulling force. For a stock 100 series, I'd think that would be enough for pretty much all parking lot expeditions. Hardcore offroading? Not so much.

... If they had the same 6klb version they have now, I probably would have bought it simply to save weight and make it easier to handle. ...

Many people, possibly most, don't carry a snatch block.

I would still recommend not under sizing a winch and then trying to make up for the power with a block. A block is to increase the power of a properly sized winch (or offer an angled pull). It is best to buy a properly sized winch for your vehicle which typically would be a winch capacity 1.5x that of your vehicle's loaded weight. If you get stuck in a bad spot, even off the side of a road in a ditch, a 6k winch with a block could easily not be enough to get out. If you are on snow or ice your spinning tires at a steep angle won't offer much of any help to your maxed out winch.