So i test drove a Defender today….

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Having owned 3 new G-wagons, a 2014 G550, 2016 G550, and 2017 G63, I would say that the build quality and reliability were probably better than average for Mercedes, but definitely not to the level of the Land Cruiser. In case people are wondering, I traded in the 2014 to get the newer engine, CarPlay, and a few other things I wanted (different color combo, etc.) and I traded the 2016 in for the G63 because I got a really good deal and found the G63 handled FAR better on the highway. The AMG suspension made a huge difference in driving characteristics. Resale value was great, so these moves didn’t cost me much. When I traded the G63 in for the LC, I felt like I did quite well on the trade in. G-wagons definitely have very good resale values.

I’ve still been following the G-wagon forums and feedback on the all new 2019+ G-wagons hasn’t been as good so far. They definitely have some issues they need to sort out still. There have been issues with the windshields and weird cabin pressure issues, as well as some electronic and mechanical issues. Nothing too bad, but enough issues that I wouldn’t want one until they sort those issues out.
Yeah, I'd agree with you there but what I meant was the drivetrain, body, and chassis being put together is somewhere near the LC level or equivalent. The rest of it would be just general Mercedes but a bit higher than average for a Mercedes.

I looked at 2002-2005 G-wagons back 10-11 years back when gas was pricey and they were cheap. I didn't like the early/mid 2000s feel of all the switch gear that was shared with other Mercedes from its period, and a lot of them had body rust and chassis too if they were in salt belt areas. I remember seeing 3-7 year old salt belt G-wagons at the time with around 100-120k miles with rocker rust, rust arund the windshield, a nasty lookng chassis but it was all surface rust, and rust of the rear swing out door.
 
Yeah, I'd agree with you there but what I meant was the drivetrain, body, and chassis being put together is somewhere near the LC level or equivalent. The rest of it would be just general Mercedes but a bit higher than average for a Mercedes.
That's definitely true. At least the pre-2019's are built like tanks in those respects. Very heavy duty and the military version (G-wagon Professional) that eliminates a lot of the potentially questionable electronics would be a very solid platform for remote use. Don't get me wrong, I LOVED the G-wagons in a lot of ways. I just wouldn't have the same level of confidence relying on them to take me to a remote place and back as I would with the Land Cruiser.

The transfer case setup on the G-wagon is also brilliant as you can change from high to low while moving and the standard front/center/rear diff locks are really nice to have rather than having to go aftermarket for them.

I'm not entirely convinced 2019+ G-wagons are really built to the same standard, but time will tell on that.
 
What would you all buy “realistically” if the 200 wasn’t an option, which is now true going forward without the 300? What I’ve seen of the 300, I would not buy it. I would love a Gwag but, the fuel range is terrible and not a barn door fan.
 
I'll likely add a four-door Bronco to the fleet at some point.
 
300 is coming whether traditionalists want to acknowledge it or not as the LX600.

As cool as the Defender looks, there's some core qualities that are missing for a good overlander. Easy choice.
 
What would you all buy “realistically” if the 200 wasn’t an option, which is now true going forward without the 300?
I would think a number of people would just go with the Lexus LX instead. The front bumper is probably the biggest negative there when compared to the Land Cruiser, for off road purposes, but that can certainly be modified.

For options that aren't Toyota or Lexus, the choices are kind of limited IMHO. The new Land Rover Defender has just about everything going for it EXCEPT for Land Rover's "famous" quality control & reliability, but that's a huge issue. The Bronco is too much of an unknown at this point and realistically isn't going to match the comfort level of a (USA spec) Land Cruiser or Defender. The Ineos Grenadier is extremely interesting to me, but it's a year (or so...) away, uses a BMW engine (I don't see that as a positive), and their build quality and reliability are complete unknowns. The Rivian also looks interesting, but they're also a complete unknown. That truck thing Tesla announced is hideous IMHO.

So an Nissan Armada or Infiniti QX80 would probably be what I would go with. I'm a bit uneasy about Nissan's future and quality control wouldn't be as good as Toyota, but much better than Land Rover. I had an Armada rental for 2 weeks a few years ago on a vacation in Colorado and really enjoyed it. It was very comfortable, handled well, had plenty of power, and had lots of cargo space. The infotainment system was terrible, but they seem to have addressed that and added CarPlay, so that wouldn't be an issue now. I honestly don't need something that's an absolute beast off road, so the fact that the USA spec Armada (vs an Austraila spec Patrol) is less capable offroad than a LC really wouldn't be a huge problem for me. When I bought the LC about a year ago, I seriously considered an Armada, but I was just too concerned about the uncertainty with Nissan that I decided against it.
 
I would think a number of people would just go with the Lexus LX instead. The front bumper is probably the biggest negative there when compared to the Land Cruiser, for off road purposes, but that can certainly be modified.

For options that aren't Toyota or Lexus, the choices are kind of limited IMHO. The new Land Rover Defender has just about everything going for it EXCEPT for Land Rover's "famous" quality control & reliability, but that's a huge issue. The Bronco is too much of an unknown at this point and realistically isn't going to match the comfort level of a (USA spec) Land Cruiser or Defender. The Ineos Grenadier is extremely interesting to me, but it's a year (or so...) away, uses a BMW engine (I don't see that as a positive), and their build quality and reliability are complete unknowns. The Rivian also looks interesting, but they're also a complete unknown. That truck thing Tesla announced is hideous IMHO.

So an Nissan Armada or Infiniti QX80 would probably be what I would go with. I'm a bit uneasy about Nissan's future and quality control wouldn't be as good as Toyota, but much better than Land Rover. I had an Armada rental for 2 weeks a few years ago on a vacation in Colorado and really enjoyed it. It was very comfortable, handled well, had plenty of power, and had lots of cargo space. The infotainment system was terrible, but they seem to have addressed that and added CarPlay, so that wouldn't be an issue now. I honestly don't need something that's an absolute beast off road, so the fact that the USA spec Armada (vs an Austraila spec Patrol) is less capable offroad than a LC really wouldn't be a huge problem for me. When I bought the LC about a year ago, I seriously considered an Armada, but I was just too concerned about the uncertainty with Nissan that I decided against it.
Agree with just about everything you said. The QX80 is very comfortable but I really don’t like the way it drives on narrow and winding roads and that’s pretty much my surroundings. I carpooled with a buddy of mine who has one and it was very plush. I can see this being great on long distance drives but not for everyday. My wife’s firiend has had her RR sport since 2007 and is about to trade it in. Very reliable for her. She definitely got the Unicorn.
 
I would think a number of people would just go with the Lexus LX instead. The front bumper is probably the biggest negative there when compared to the Land Cruiser, for off road purposes, but that can certainly be modified.

For options that aren't Toyota or Lexus, the choices are kind of limited IMHO. The new Land Rover Defender has just about everything going for it EXCEPT for Land Rover's "famous" quality control & reliability, but that's a huge issue. The Bronco is too much of an unknown at this point and realistically isn't going to match the comfort level of a (USA spec) Land Cruiser or Defender. The Ineos Grenadier is extremely interesting to me, but it's a year (or so...) away, uses a BMW engine (I don't see that as a positive), and their build quality and reliability are complete unknowns. The Rivian also looks interesting, but they're also a complete unknown. That truck thing Tesla announced is hideous IMHO.

So an Nissan Armada or Infiniti QX80 would probably be what I would go with. I'm a bit uneasy about Nissan's future and quality control wouldn't be as good as Toyota, but much better than Land Rover. I had an Armada rental for 2 weeks a few years ago on a vacation in Colorado and really enjoyed it. It was very comfortable, handled well, had plenty of power, and had lots of cargo space. The infotainment system was terrible, but they seem to have addressed that and added CarPlay, so that wouldn't be an issue now. I honestly don't need something that's an absolute beast off road, so the fact that the USA spec Armada (vs an Austraila spec Patrol) is less capable offroad than a LC really wouldn't be a huge problem for me. When I bought the LC about a year ago, I seriously considered an Armada, but I was just too concerned about the uncertainty with Nissan that I decided against it.

I agree with you.

It's likely the gap left by the LC in Toyota's lineup will be fortified in a couple ways. The LX is likely to get a more aggressive overland focused form that may appeal to traditionalists in the standard LX and LX F-Sport. Lexus has the new unibody LQ to fill the road focused SUV mission. Something the current LX570 has had to straddle between.

Toyota is likely to promote the Sequoia with perhaps a higher end LC-esque TRD Pro trim.

If you like the Armada and QX80, their natural competitor is more aligned to the Sequoia, albeit dated in its current form. All are fully independent suspensions. As well as being larger full size SUVs with the Armada/QX80 sisters at 121.1" wheelbase, versus Sequoia at 122". 200-series is 112.2".
 
I agree with you.

It's likely the gap left by the LC in Toyota's lineup will be fortified in a couple ways. The LX is likely to get a more aggressive overland focused form that may appeal to traditionalists in the standard LX and LX F-Sport. Lexus has the new unibody LQ to fill the road focused SUV mission. Something the current LX570 has had to straddle between.

Toyota is likely to promote the Sequoia with perhaps a higher end LC-esque TRD Pro trim.

If you like the Armada and QX80, their natural competitor is more aligned to the Sequoia, albeit dated in its current form. All are fully independent suspensions. As well as being larger full size SUVs with the Armada/QX80 sisters at 121.1" wheelbase, versus Sequoia at 122". 200-series is 112.2".
We'll see what Toyota does with the next Sequoia, but I probably wouldn't buy the current model. We'll have to wait and see exactly what Lexus does with trim levels for the 300 series LX. If they bring in an "overland" / offroad oriented trim level, it could be perfect for those who want to upgrade to a 300 series (or just buy something new). But I'm happy with my 200 series LC for now, so no rush :).
 
I've had friends and family with QX80's in the recent past and IMHO they jus don't rate near a LX/LC. Their plastics feel cheap, the cabin isn't as quiet and even the way the doors close feels far less robust. Their resale value is atrocious in comparison and I find them less appealing aesthetically. Oddly enough, all of those who owned one no longer do and two of them are in Toyota/Lexus products now, one of which is a LX570. The Bronco is nowhere near the same level of product as the LC but it'll certainly do for a daily that'll be comparable to a Wrangler or Tacoma.
 
Hard to imagine parting with my two 200’s, but if I had to get something else right now I would purchase an LX460. Would immediately lift it, all-terrains, and on-and-on. If a higher MPG 460 comes out, will be super compelling to trade in an LC, as the 1000 mile trek to our vacation home gets more and more costly. Not sure if I would buy the 300 version of the LX (at least not new), as the cost:value not there for me especially if it’s still another 13 MPG vehicle. As retirement gets closer, it’s amazing how your perspective changes!
 
What would you all buy “realistically” if the 200 wasn’t an option, which is now true going forward without the 300? What I’ve seen of the 300, I would not buy it. I would love a Gwag but, the fuel range is terrible and not a barn door fan.
Easy. Ford F150 Hybrid.
 
Easy. Ford F150 Hybrid.
Certainly not for a long term purchase, though. Right?

Takes a brave man to buy anything American after owning a Cruiser. And an even braver one to drive the 1st generation of a totally new release
 
Certainly not for a long term purchase, though. Right?

Takes a brave man to buy anything American after owning a Cruiser. And an even braver one to drive the 1st generation of a totally new release
Sorry i can’t read your post over the steam bath that i am having and, at same time, holding my cold beer while my neighborhood is suffering from power outage. All thanks to the generator that is built into F150 Hybrid capable of powering my whole house for days! :)

(On a more serious note, you’re right. My brother’s Raptor has had its shares of minor and mechanical issues.)
 
I’ve done a lot of mental gymnastics on what’s after the 200.

The right side of my brain says G63 or Bronco R. However both are 3-4” shorter which compromises how we like to use the LC (sleeping inside with pup and all of our stuff in it). Also, the stock Bronco is slow. 0-60 is 7-8 seconds depending on what you read. Even the LC300 is the same 6.6 seconds as the 200. I’m the kind of person that wants all my vehicles to have some GO and have to convince myself not to put a SC in the 200 every other week.

I am bullish on the possibilities of the electric future. However that’s nascent and with Elon time and Rivian’s recent delay…it will prob take 2-3 years at the least before we have the 400-500 mile range, electric infra, and reliability to feed confident bringing these trucks into remote areas.

The answer I keep coming back to is to ride the 200 out till the electric future proves itself… which is going to take some time. Good thing about that 25 year service life.
 
I peeped into the Defenders Facebook group and saw this:

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This guy uses his Defender like it was advertised and has a decent channel outlining his complete experience. I think he finds it not very good.
 
I’ve done a lot of mental gymnastics on what’s after the 200.

The right side of my brain says G63 or Bronco R. However both are 3-4” shorter which compromises how we like to use the LC (sleeping inside with pup and all of our stuff in it). Also, the stock Bronco is slow. 0-60 is 7-8 seconds depending on what you read. Even the LC300 is the same 6.6 seconds as the 200. I’m the kind of person that wants all my vehicles to have some GO and have to convince myself not to put a SC in the 200 every other week.

I am bullish on the possibilities of the electric future. However that’s nascent and with Elon time and Rivian’s recent delay…it will prob take 2-3 years at the least before we have the 400-500 mile range, electric infra, and reliability to feed confident bringing these trucks into remote areas.

The answer I keep coming back to is to ride the 200 out till the electric future proves itself… which is going to take some time. Good thing about that 25 year service life.
My vehicle prior to the 200 was a 2017 G63 that I had purchased new. It was fantastic in so many ways. It was fast (quite a bit faster than the 200), it handled well (better than the 200 on the highway), it had lots of room, it was comfortable for long drives, it had an iconic look that everyone recognizes, it had factory triple lockers, it had Apple CarPlay, and so on. But it was extremely expensive to maintain and not at Toyota's level of quality control and reliability. Brake parts were VERY expensive. Some parts were very difficult to get (it took 9 months for them to get warranty replacements for cracked tail light assemblies). I moved on because I was getting close to the end of my warranty and it was becoming clear that it was going to cost $$$ to keep it going if I kept it.

The recognizable thing led to a few amusing moments, but was mostly a good thing with lots of thumbs up and positive comments. I was actually surprised that I got very few negative comments over the years of owning G-wagons (I had 3, starting with a 2014 G550, 2016 G550, and finally the 2017 G63).

Shortly after I got the 2014, I took my mom shopping (being the good son that I am...). When we were walking back to the car, a couple in their 60's was getting out of their car parked near mine. The husband made a comment along the lines of "that's pretty cool" and the wife said something along the lines of "that's for someone who's overcompensating" (I don't recall exactly what she said), just as I was pressing the remote button to unlock it. She looked pretty embarrassed when she realized I heard what she had said. I just found it amusing as I didn't really care what other people thought - as long as I was happy with it, that's all that mattered.

The other amusing moment could have turned out ugly. My dad, brother, and I drove up to Newfoundland in one of my G-wagons (I don't remember which one it was). In a small town, there was a nice pier with some colorful boats and a few small icebergs that had come in, so we parked and got out to take some pictures. About that time, we noticed some locals giving us a bit of a dirty look, which was very uncharacteristic for folks up in Newfoundland (they're always incredibly friendly). A few minutes later, one of them came over to welcome us and told us they initially thought we were government inspectors coming to give them a hassle when they saw the G-wagon. Once they figured out we were just tourists, all was fine.

Based on owning both, cargo space seems to be pretty comparable overall, but the distribution of the dimensions is definitely somewhat different, so that would definitely have an impact on the ability to sleep inside with a pet and so forth. The new 2019+ G-wagons, however, have less cargo space than the older 2018- G-wagons. They made them longer overall, but sacrificed some cargo space to give the rear seats more legroom. When the new model first came out, I was debating about trading in for a new one, so I took a tape measure to a new one that had come in at the local dealership. The space above the wheel wells on the new models is also taken up by things like a subwoofer. All in all, the new model loses about 15% of cargo space based on the measurements I took. The MSRP also shot through the roof - a comparably configured G63 to my 2017 is now about $20-30K more than my 2017 was. The 2017 was pretty much at the limit of what I was comfortable paying, so the price increase was too much.

The new G63 is much faster than my 2017 was and the new G550 is just about as fast as my 2017 G63 was, so a new G550 would probably be plenty fast if you do decide to go with a new G-wagon at some point.

Regarding electric, I think it's going to take quite a bit more than 2-3 years to get the charging infrastructure to the point where it needs to be for electric to really take off. The current typical range of 200-300 miles just isn't enough - I think they need to get to 500 miles. On a long trip, it just isn't practical to drive 200 miles out of 500 on a long driving day and then have to stop for a couple of hours to charge the battery back up (if you can even find a charger). A range of 500 miles would probably be enough for any 1 driving day for me and it could then charge up at the hotel overnight. On our trips, we often have 1 long driving day on each end of the trip (MA to VA, for example) and then the days in the middle are typically much less driving and focused on enjoying scenery, hiking, scenic train rides, etc.

Getting back to cargo space for a moment, something I really wish manufacturers would do with SUVs is make the 2nd and 3rd row seats easily removable like they often do with mini vans. In both the LC and the G-wagon, when you fold the 2nd rows seats forward, you lose a LOT of cargo space to those seats. If they had quick release mechanisms like in mini vans, you could get the seats completely out of the way and gain quite a bit of usable cargo space. It's kind of a pain to unbolt seats to remove them temporarily. In the G-wagon, putting the rear seat back in was difficult because there was an assist strut or spring that required a special tool to reattach properly. I really don't get why no SUV, to my knowledge, has ever had this feature.
 
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My vehicle prior to the 200 was a 2017 G63 that I had purchased new. It was fantastic in so many ways. It was fast (quite a bit faster than the 200), it handled well (better than the 200 on the highway), it had lots of room, it was comfortable for long drives, it had an iconic look that everyone recognizes, it had factory triple lockers, it had Apple CarPlay, and so on. But it was extremely expensive to maintain and not at Toyota's level of quality control and reliability. Brake parts were VERY expensive. Some parts were very difficult to get (it took 9 months for them to get warranty replacements for cracked tail light assemblies). I moved on because I was getting close to the end of my warranty and it was becoming clear that it was going to cost $$$ to keep it going if I kept it.

The recognizable thing led to a few amusing moments, but was mostly a good thing with lots of thumbs up and positive comments. I was actually surprised that I got very few negative comments over the years of owning G-wagons (I had 3, starting with a 2014 G550, 2016 G550, and finally the 2017 G63).

Shortly after I got the 2014, I took my mom shopping (being the good son that I am...). When we were walking back to the car, a couple in their 60's was getting out of their car parked near mine. The husband made a comment along the lines of "that's pretty cool" and the wife said something along the lines of "that's for someone who's overcompensating" (I don't recall exactly what she said), just as I was pressing the remote button to unlock it. She looked pretty embarrassed when she realized I heard what she had said. I just found it amusing as I didn't really care what other people thought - as long as I was happy with it, that's all that mattered.

The other amusing moment could have turned out ugly. My dad, brother, and I drove up to Newfoundland in one of my G-wagons (I don't remember which one it was). In a small town, there was a nice pier with some colorful boats and a few small icebergs that had come in, so we parked and got out to take some pictures. About that time, we noticed some locals giving us a bit of a dirty look, which was very uncharacteristic for folks up in Newfoundland (they're always incredibly friendly). A few minutes later, one of them came over to welcome us and told us they initially thought we were government inspectors coming to give them a hassle when they saw the G-wagon. Once they figured out we were just tourists, all was fine.

Based on owning both, cargo space seems to be pretty comparable overall, but the distribution of the dimensions is definitely somewhat different, so that would definitely have an impact on the ability to sleep inside with a pet and so forth. The new G-wagons (2019+), however, have less cargo space than the older G-wagons (201:cool:. They made them longer overall, but sacrificed some cargo space to give the rear seats more legroom. When the new model first came out, I was debating about trading in for a new one, so I took a tape measure to a new one that had come in at the local dealership. The space above the wheel wells on the new models is also taken up by things like a subwoofer. All in all, the new model loses about 15% of cargo space based on the measurements I took. The MSRP also shot through the roof - a comparably configured G63 to my 2017 is now about $20-30K more than my 2017 was. The 2017 was pretty much at the limit of what I was comfortable paying, so the price increase was too much.

The new G63 is much faster than my 2017 was and the new G550 is just about as fast as my 2017 G63 was, so a new G550 would probably be plenty fast if you do decide to go with a new G-wagon at some point.

Regarding electric, I think it's going to take quite a bit more than 2-3 years to get the charging infrastructure to the point where it needs to be for electric to really take off. The current typical range of 200-300 miles just isn't enough - I think they need to get to 500 miles. On a long trip, it just isn't practical to drive 200 miles out of 500 on a long driving day and then have to stop for a couple of hours to charge the battery back up (if you can even find a charger). A range of 500 miles would probably be enough for any 1 driving day for me and it could then charge up at the hotel overnight. On our trips, we often have 1 long driving day on each end of the trip (MA to VA, for example) and then the days in the middle are typically much less driving and focused on enjoying scenery, hiking, scenic train rides, etc.

Getting back to cargo space for a moment, something I really wish manufacturers would do with SUVs is make the 2nd and 3rd row seats easily removable like they often do with mini vans. In both the LC and the G-wagon, when you fold the 2nd rows seats forward, you lose a LOT of cargo space to those seats. If they had quick release mechanisms like in mini vans, you could get the seats completely out of the way and gain quite a bit of usable cargo space. It's kind of a pain to unbolt seats to remove them temporarily. In the G-wagon, putting the rear seat back in was difficult because there was an assist strut or spring that required a special tool to reattach properly. I really don't get why no SUV, to my knowledge, has ever had this feature.
Well said. I have always been torn about the Gwagon and it’s biggest fan. You’re right about the upkeep and getting parts. What I appreciate about my experiences with Merc is the fantastic service center and always getting a nice loaner. Porsche service center has been by far my favorite experience, especially when it comes to loaner rides. 😎 If they could offer a more off-road ordinated Cayenne, but getting rock sliders,wheels and real skid plates for it would be a custom job$$$$ I’m sure. As far as replacing my 200 with another comparable suv would just wait and see what the new LX will look like in the U.S.
 
Hopefully some of the new Defender owners will provide 1 year reviews. That will be a good indicator as to how it’s holding up.
 

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