rough idle, no power, knocking

[jcarter]

Gas: I've changed out the filter, so that ain't it.
Ignition: I pulled a couple of plugs last night and one was wet, gas wet, not oil wet. I'll pull the others tonight & report back. I am going to get a new distributor seal, then follow the FSM to "reset" the distributor. Also, change out the plugs. I'll report back once done.
Codes: Got a 51 which says AC and other stuff. I don't use my AC, so I'll bet that's it. If the ignition changes don't fix the problem, I'll dwelve into the 51 code further.

Mr. Prick, just kidding. I've solved a couple of issues on the Mud and someone get's a little curt by the end of it. You have to take into consideration my ignorance. This ignorance is why I post stuff here so I don't go out and spend a butt load of $ to fix EVERYTHING but the problem.

Mr. Timing, That attachement looks like it's from a 1967 Pontiac. The FSM & pictures on the Mud have the timing window near the firewall, like it's looking at the starter flywheel. And YES I saw a bolt head. Hopefully after I reset the timing, I'll be able to see some dots like the FSM says.

More info coming.

 

[poppy walnut]

Code 51 is most likely the TPS is not set correctly. Might want to set that. Easy fix, but most likely not your problem.

I've been on forums for quite a while (11yrs supraforums and just a year here).

All the time I would see someone have a problem, make a post, then people just guessing what could cause it. Then the person would just start swapping parts without doing any troubleshooting to narrow things down.

It's best to eliminate the possibilities one at a time. And by that I don't mean changing parts. Sometimes it's hard to determine if a part is good or bad, and just to replace it. But that isn't the most efficient nor the cheapest way to solve a problem.

There is defiantly something going on with your timing. It shouldn't be full CCW to make it even run. Address that problem, check timing, then move on if the problem isn't solved. That's all I'm saying.

Signed,

Mr. Prick

 

[ToddD]

I'm very happy about your bolt head and wish you the best with those dots. I just wasted 10 minutes on my phone to say
Now find someone that knows how to use a timing light and have your 'adjustment' corrected so you can rule timing out.

 

[jcarter]

Finally got back into it. Been really busy.

Last time it ran had white smoke coming out the exhaust. Pulled all the plugs, all were wet and smelt like gas. Pulled the intake hose to get a good look at the distributor, hose was full of oil. See pic.

Timing: I wanted to see what I was supposed to be seeing while timing it. So I manually rotated the motor with a light in the timing window. I found the big dot and the smaller double dots shown in the FSM. I turned the motor to put the pin on top of the double dot (should be TDC according to the FSM), the rotor was pointing to the #1 cylinder just like it should according to the FSM and the timing adjustment bolt was right in the middle of the slot which is where it should be. Does any of this make sense? Regardless, TIMING IS FINE! Timing isn't brain surgery, when the #1 plug fires, the light blinks, and you see marks on the flywheel. What I don't understand is why it ran best out of time? I also don't understand the FSM it says "align with the 7 degree mark" WHAT 7 DEGREE MARK?

Other issue: Nasty oily crap in the intake hose means the rings are going. It doesn't use much oil, but maybe its the rings. Maybe it's the head gasket letting anti-freeze in the cylinder, but shouldn't I see that on the plugs? The white smoke is typically anti-freeze, right? The antifreeze won't stay full and I don't see any leaks.

I'm very confused, but I'm going to put new plugs, wires, rotor, & cap. I'll start it up and play with the timing again. I don't think it'll help, but she's due for a tune-up anyhow. I've never done it before, but I guess I'll take off the head and redo that. While I'm there I'll go ahead and get the injectors redone by manefre, put new hoses everywhere, etc.

Any other comments would be appreciated. I can't see it being anything else simple. Going back to the problem, rough idle, blowing white smoke, knocking, no power. I think it's gotta be an engine problem.

 

[jonheld]

Recent Driving: I did run through a river a couple of months ago, but it ran fine back home. Then ran fine a couple of weeks ago back out to the country (150 miles or so). It wasn't until coming back did it start acting up.

So basically you're saying one day it's fine and the next day it's bad, and you've done nothing to disturb anything in the motor. Would that be correct?

If so, how could it possibly be a timing issue? Distributor housings don't rotate on their own.
Compression, valve adjustment, rings, etc. All of these issues are unlikely possibilities. I STRONGLY suggest starting with the very very very basic items.

Is your intake plenum torn? This allows unmetered air into the system and really makes the ECU do wonky things ESPECIALLY at or close to idle. A torn intake plenum will make the truck run like crap. Because it flexes with the motor it is something that can happen "all of a sudden".
That's what you should be looking for. Things that crap out and cause the truck to run poorly. Doing a top end rebuild is great, but you probably are being led down the primrose path. These are TRACTOR MOTORS. Think basic stuff first.
What about vacuum leaks? This would cause similar problems. Basic stuff first.

http://www.sdsysdesign.com/tlc/images/Strife/3FE TuneUp.pdf

 

[ColoCruiserJeff]

Jon makes a good point on the compression- and thanks for the PDF on the 3FE parts...definitely a good resource there. Have you checked the compression of your motor at all? Check that - they should be relatively even across the board - Hint (Headgasket seal/ valve guides etc)

First up - white smoke 'typically' means Antifreeze - but you can't be going around maybe-ing the diagnosis of the motor.

You mention that you can't keep the Antifreeze full - and you're not seeing leaks on the ground, so yes...you'd suspect a headgasket failure - as most shadetree mechanics will - as do I. Check your compression and you'll see if that is the case.

I'm no expert on the 3FE's, but I've rebuilt enough motors to tell when a HG is gone bad. You can run a long time on a bad HG in the proper conditions are right - Plus it's really not that hard to do a HG / Timing / tune-up on your 3FE if you're already seeing poor performance it's good insurance on your motor.

Getting onto the knocking complaint. Knocking can come from poor fuel, ticking because of pre-ignition (timing problem or plugs) - so many options but you have to narrow it down a little more. Fuel filter was a good idea to start with anyways.

Oil in the plenum is a problem....check the condition of your PCV -valve and R&R it - another low-cost should be done anyways repair. There brings us to the AFM - get some AFM cleaner at Napa...and spray that sucker down - you'd be amazed how just a little bit of dirt and crap from a bad air-filter can cause the AFM to go south - which starts the whole host of problems down the line.

Airway, Breathing, Circulation....same thing goes for your motor.

Post up some more photos and updates - we're all rootin' for ya and don't want to see you throw money down the drain - the 3FE is a solid motor with a long 400k mile life span when maintained - as long as you didn't hydro-lock it while driving thru the river a few weeks ago

 

[ColoCruiserJeff]

Oh....and Man-A-Fre isn't the best solution for your reconditioning of your injectors - check with Linder Tech Webiste:

Linder Technical Services - Automotive Solutions for Today's Technicians

They are a cost-effective and reputable resource for injector service - they're quick too! A lot of guys on 'Mud use them for injector balancing and service.

I actually JUST got off the phone with Andy there...and he's charging $180 for the service with a 2-day turn around time for the reconditioning of 'em (+ 15-20 for shipping) Plus he gives you new basket filter and o-rings too....definitely worth the investment!

 

[jcarter]

WOW! Thanks guys!

First step will be to do the compression test. I'll get back to you on that.

If compression test passes, then I'll follow the "3FE TuneUp.pdf". How important is temperature when adjusting the valves? FSM says engine at running temperature.

I didn't realize the compression test would rule out engine issues, duh! Should get it done this week.

 

[jcarter]

Bought all the stuff in the tune-up pdf. Should be in soon. I figure even if there is a bad gasket, I'm long overdue for a more compete tune-up. I've ONLY been replacing wires, plugs, rotor, & cap.

Ordered the stuff from Toyota Parts - Genuine OEM Toyota Auto Parts and Accessories. Looked like good pricing compared to Toyota dealer or Amazon.

Plenum: I assume you mean the big rubber hose, is newer and not cracked.

The reason I believe it ran better was I cleaned the plugs before putting them back in. Hoping for a good compression check, will do a more complete tune-up, and should be GOOD TO GO!

Thanks for the help, more to come. IH8MUD has saved me a lot of money and is like a marriage counselor helping my relationship with the Ole LC.

 

[rolliges]

Update...

 

[jcarter]

Did the compression check. . .

Cyl - first check - second check
1-120-115
2-0
3-117-122
4-105-110
5-121-120
6-118-118

I'm NOT experienced, but I do believe they call that a "dead cylinder". Can a head gasket do that? Bad valve? Hopefuly not a piston/ring problem.

Now what? Guess the head gasket & check the valves would be the first step, right?

SHOOT! I just put 33's on her! Maybe my most favorite Mother-In-Law will let me borrow her garage this winter. Last time was 2-1/2" lift & rebuild front axle.

Joe

 

[jcarter]

Searched through posts and read a used motor is better than a rebuilt motor. So, I was thinking about simply replacing the entire engine. Found this on the internet View attachment used engine.pdf

$2,000 for an engine with 70,000 miles sounds like a good deal. I could pay someone to install it (~$500), get it running, then do the injectors, valve adjustment, complete tune-up (~500).

$3,000 for a newer engine with complete tune-up sounds like a good deal. Do you agree?

 

[ColoCruiserJeff]

Pull your valve cover first before you go diving into a motor swap....easy as hell to do! Reason to do this is to make sure the valves on the #2 piston are cycling up and down when you slowly turn the motor over - this will determine if it is a broken valve, lifter / push rod or valvetrain failure. Either of these potential options are a lot cheaper to repair than just throwing in a new motor. If they're cycling as they should....and you still have O compression in the #2, you're likely looking at a failed compression rings on the piston - but you would have heard it go south really noticeably.

Pulling the 3FE is not a small job....especially if you've never done a motor swap before - but we'll help ya along the way and root ya on... as it just requires a shade-tree mechanic cert

Best-

Jeff

 

[matttt]

I have nowhere near the technical knowledge as some of the people replying to this thread but I had identical symptoms with my LC over the last couple weeks (minus the idle control issues but my tach doesn't work anyway). I had a failed #5 injector. I didn't see anywhere if you checked injectors yet.

Man-A-Fre is a good engine source

 

[matttt]

And when I said identical, i mean IDENTICAL symptoms.

 

[jcarter]

Matttttt,
I'm no experienced guy either, but don't believe 0 compression would have anything to do with the injector.

Others, thanks for the advice. It runs rough, but doesn't make a lot of noise like it should if it was a motor problem.

New Plan! Wait until I can work on it in the driveway (March), tear into it, HOPE it's the head gasket ONLY, replace the head gasket/redo the head, injectors, etc. like I've researched on the MUD.

We're renovating the bathroom over the next few months, so I have to wait. See y'all in early spring.

Regardless, Thanks for the help!

Joe