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Is it using battery capacity to heat the pack? Or it just sits there and allows itself to get out of range then eventually not work?
I’ll read the above article when I have time.
Rivian R1S vs LC thoughts?
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I’ll read the above article when I have time.
No surprise, there's a contingent of heritage die-hards. They relish and trade in tradition and long established value metrics. If given the option, would probably buy a brand new 80 or 70-series, rather than the likes of a 300-series. A Rivian or EV anything is just too much progression. Or heck, AHC suspension or Lexus features on an LC, that's already enough to have some screaming blasphomy. Even though much of that same broadly applied technology is what makes the 200-series so great.
Of course, that's not everyone here. There's just as many that value technology. Or the special mix and balance of technology, quality, and design found only in the 200-series. Interestingly, one of the raved upon qualities of the Rivian is the suspension. Hydraulic, cross-linking, adaptive damping, ride height adjustable....hrmm, where have I seen this before? Components supplied by Tenneco? Oh, the LC has had this tech since the 100-series in both LX and LC, and now exclusively in the 200-series LX (at least in the states). But of course, many LC owners won't give credit to Toyota. Nor much of the popular media which likes to sell it as a unique first, or liken it to superlative brands like McLaren.
There's just as many progressive and like minded here that have had the luxury of sampling other brands and cutting edge technology. Some that's been here more than 10 yrs now and has helped with enough understanding that EVs are truly the future. Because ICE cars simply can't keep up. It doesn't matter whether it's our generation that buys into these new fangled things anyhow. The new generations will decide. For performance, capability, etc., but perhaps other things that our generation can't adapt to or haven't valued enough like sustainability.
Of course, that's not everyone here. There's just as many that value technology. Or the special mix and balance of technology, quality, and design found only in the 200-series. Interestingly, one of the raved upon qualities of the Rivian is the suspension. Hydraulic, cross-linking, adaptive damping, ride height adjustable....hrmm, where have I seen this before? Components supplied by Tenneco? Oh, the LC has had this tech since the 100-series in both LX and LC, and now exclusively in the 200-series LX (at least in the states). But of course, many LC owners won't give credit to Toyota. Nor much of the popular media which likes to sell it as a unique first, or liken it to superlative brands like McLaren.
There's just as many progressive and like minded here that have had the luxury of sampling other brands and cutting edge technology. Some that's been here more than 10 yrs now and has helped with enough understanding that EVs are truly the future. Because ICE cars simply can't keep up. It doesn't matter whether it's our generation that buys into these new fangled things anyhow. The new generations will decide. For performance, capability, etc., but perhaps other things that our generation can't adapt to or haven't valued enough like sustainability.
In fairness though, that article talks about a long out of production car- the original Roadster- and only notes four that were bricked, all through owners ignoring the instructions to not deplete the batteries to zero. Tesla has made hundreds of thousands of vehicles since then and I’ve not heard of bricking being a common or even rare event. Likely the more sophisticated thermal and reserve controls in the BMS. The admonition not to allow the charge fall to zero remains in the manual.
I’m on my second Model S, with a total of 110k Tesla miles. Also have a Fiat 500e. Plenty of other machines that burn gas as well like a turbo PA32 that sucks 36 gallons per hour on takeoff. EVs have their place and the capability is improving fast.
Nicely said @TeCKis300. I think most enthusiasts tend not to like change, and that makes sense to me. You literally like a thing so much you form a bond with it, so why should it change? I totally relate - I actually bought ANOTHER 200 not long ago just because I like them so much.
But that doesn’t change the fact EVs are objectively better than ICE vehicles, and they’re absolutely amazing to drive. Usually the people who speak most negatively about EVs have never owned one. I have to ask, if someone was on this forum talking about how stupid the 200 was, but this person had never owned a Land Cruiser or even a gasoline vehicle before, how seriously would people take their opinion?
When you look at how innovation is “diffused” in society, we are still pretty far to the left of the curve, and I think most enthusiasts live on the right of the curve. I did too until I drove a Model 3 Performance a couple of years ago and it blew my mind. It changed my life, and I bought a Model 3 immediately and then went to work for Rivian for the last 2 years. I spent much of June through November driving R1Ts on and off road, and I can report first hand it’s every bit as phenomenal as literally dozens of journalists have reported. After these first hand experiences, I am clamoring to get as far to the left of this curve as possible because what’s being made now and what is coming is incredible.
Awesome that you are blown away and work for rivian.Nicely said @TeCKis300. I think most enthusiasts tend not to like change, and that makes sense to me. You literally like a thing so much you form a bond with it, so why should it change? I totally relate - I actually bought ANOTHER 200 not long ago just because I like them so much.
But that doesn’t change the fact EVs are objectively better than ICE vehicles, and they’re absolutely amazing to drive. Usually the people who speak most negatively about EVs have never owned one. I have to ask, if someone was on this forum talking about how stupid the 200 was, but this person had never owned a Land Cruiser or even a gasoline vehicle before, how seriously would people take their opinion?
When you look at how innovation is “diffused” in society, we are still pretty far to the left of the curve, and I think most enthusiasts live on the right of the curve. I did too until I drove a Model 3 Performance a couple of years ago and it blew my mind. It changed my life, and I bought a Model 3 immediately and then went to work for Rivian for the last 2 years. I spent much of June through November driving R1Ts on and off road, and I can report first hand it’s every bit as phenomenal as literally dozens of journalists have reported. After these first hand experiences, I am clamoring to get as far to the left of this curve as possible because what’s being made now and what is coming is incredible.
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can you please answer this comment and question that I posted earlier? If they “objectively better” than the answer should be simple.
Last spring, I took my family to Sedona, it was a quick 5 or 6 day trip.
Here where the first two days:
day 1: woke up at around 3:30am, drove from El Dorado Hills, CA to Sedona (900 miles), we filled up in town and grabbed sushi. We then drove up Scnebly hill road with the pink Jeep’s and camped on the ledge of the cliff
day2: we drove down that trail, and the spent the day riding trails in the LC and the bikes.
it was glorious.
last day: same thing in reverse.
what ev can do the above? How much charging time?
I wish he would have mentioned how much range was eaten up on that climb. Also, shame on whoever in the built 80 series declined a hill challenge. What’s the point of being over built if you won’t take it up an off-road trail. Huge props to Rivian being able to climb it. Lose trails like that aren’t easy to get up. I bet the new Hummer would to do even better.
turbo8
Supporting Vendor
If anyone near San Diego wants to go try the trail it is here:
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maps.app.goo.gl
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32°37'38.9"N 116°50'45.9"W · 32.627479, -116.846072
Objectively better doesn’t mean you can’t find a straw man use case that’s not optimal. I can do the same for any tool for any application.
Incidentally a 900 mile one day drive doesn’t sound like any amount of fun in anything. That’s what airplanes are for. For me KOAK to KSEZ is 3h 20m. Takes less gas to fly the Saratoga than to drive the LC. Pick the right tool for the job. For many (maybe most) driving duties EVs do the job better.
turbo8
Supporting Vendor
Doug commented on the video
"For those asking about range off-road, I didn't see a HUGE depletion of range when doing off-road stuff, though it did go quicker than on-road. I'd say range depleted maybe 30 percent faster off-road than on road. Interestingly I only lost a mile or two going up and down the rock hill."
Apparently my Tesla uses energy to heat the pack at below -22F. Not an issue if plugged in. I get the Alaska Tesla club newsletters and emails. I’ve never heard of bricking up here. There are at least 50 in and around Fairbanks. I have a buddy in Healy on his 4th winter with a model 3 and he dosn’t have a garage. High today in Healy is -27F
Although I haven’t off-roaded my teslas. I can tell you they are much more efficient at low speeds stop and go around town then on the highway. I can get 20-30% better then “rated range” around the city or in stop and go traffic. I would bet not much range loss off-roading except for extreme conditions like deep sand.
straw man? Long road trips to camp, hike, bike, off-road and do photography in the most remote and awesome places I can find is the purpose I own my LC. That is common on this site, many are doing the same thing.
how about any of these trips? (All camp, no hotels) any of these optimal?
ca > gold bluffs state beach > Oregon coast
ca > june lake > Alabama hills > death Valley > Joshua tree
ca > Prescott > south rim Grand Canyon > Sedona
ca > north rim GC
ca > Zion > Bryce > Utah west to east > Moab
ca > Moab
ca > Colorado (counter clockwise loop to many of the national parks
ca > calgary > banff > glacier np
ca > slc > glacier np > Yellowstone > Jackson hole
etc etc etc
Still a straw man argument. I’m not going to do your route planning for you, that’s a PIC job, but at least some of those routes are well supported by Tesla superchargers, destination chargers and other infrastructure. Evtripplanner.com is a good resource. My 70+ year old in laws drove their Model 3 AUS-OAK-AUS via 395.
And some routes are not….but that’s what I have the LC for. And the airplane for where that’s the right tool.
Someday there will be adequate infrastructure to support off-road EVs. Off-load capable-quick charge service trucks, trail head charging stations, maybe even vehicle solar charging solutions you can travel with. (Let's not get into what the current electrical grid can support). I don't think it's a "straw man" argument to point out that these things just don't exist. It is not unusual for "overlanders" to log a lot of miles on successive days in remote areas. I think injecting the "why don't you just fly your plane?" argument is a little ridiculous - although I wish I too had the option.
EV Trip Planner
But the infrastructure does exist in much of the country. Here’s a route from a norcal location to Moab, using my older P85D. That’s not a car you can take off-road, but the newer X models have better range and some off-road capability. Fuel cost for me on this trip, exactly $0. Because I bought with unlimited supercharging. If I was paying it would be around $30 at my alameda power rates.
And the point with the airplane is just to say that there are trips that, while do-able in the LC, are mostly a boring waste of time compared to other options. Just the same point you can make regarding trips in EVs that require awkward charging detours etc.
I have a buddy who is a trouble shoot engineer for Tesla, he doesn't own a single EV and for reasons we likely can't or don't want to see/accept. It makes sense that those who currently own them as early adopters think that they've discovered fire and the rest of us are running in fright and calling it witchcraft. No one is saying that EV's don't have their place, we are simply saying that the tech and associated infrastructure necessary to use them in all the same ways we use ICE vehicles simply isn't there yet and likely won't be for some time to come.
Here's an early gen LC vs Rivian on the Diablo Drop Off hard line, on a widely shared video. I didn't think it's a fair comparison as the LC driver outright sucked. My buddy with a 100-series is salty as his wife made it up there just fine in a 100-series.
Then the video below of my LX570 with a comparably high tech Tenneco based cross linked AHC suspension to the Rivian R1S cross linked suspension. Both with 20" wheels and 34.5" tall tires on LX, comparable to the R1S 20" wheels and 34.1" spec diameter tires. Each makes quick work of the same line.
Then the video below of my LX570 with a comparably high tech Tenneco based cross linked AHC suspension to the Rivian R1S cross linked suspension. Both with 20" wheels and 34.5" tall tires on LX, comparable to the R1S 20" wheels and 34.1" spec diameter tires. Each makes quick work of the same line.
EV Trip Planner
www.evtripplanner.com
But the infrastructure does exist in much of the country. Here’s a route from a norcal location to Moab, using my older P85D. That’s not a car you can take off-road, but the newer X models have better range and some off-road capability. Fuel cost for me on this trip, exactly $0. Because I bought with unlimited supercharging. If I was paying it would be around $30 at my alameda power rates.
And the point with the airplane is just to say that there are trips that, while do-able in the LC, are mostly a boring waste of time compared to other options. Just the same point you can make regarding trips in EVs that require awkward charging detours etc.
It's cool that you can go from NorCal to Moab in a tesla, I am not arguing that you can't.
My point is that I own a LC to get off the beaten path and currently the EV infrastructure is the beaten path.
The airplane thing is just a silly comparison, yeah - you can take a cool trip in airplane. But that doesn't really overlap with what is possible in a LC. As I described, we usually camp in 5-10 different spots on a trip with all kinds of adventure gear. Lots is exploring, and rarely do we find the journey a boring waste of time.
Tesla has done a great job of electrifying the roads their cars are likely to travel. Using the trip planner, I can plot several routes the are not within the range of an EV that would be typical routes for adventurers on this forum (over 350 miles). This planner also deals with point to point driving, while most vacationers and explorers like to go off of the main route here and there. I think it will get there someday, it's just that today it doesn't meet my personal requirements for flexibility and safety. To each his own in that regard.
